What The Real Problem Is At Saa

[ByAirMail]

Just caught a glimpse of the CNN Sport update as I pass through SIN airport… something about a Twenty/ 20 cricket game postponed due to cable theft and no lights at the stadium? Roll on 2010 Soccer World Cup!! Excuse the pun, but “see the light guys”.

[JetNut]

frogman and mates...I'm sure you are very content with your situation in HK, GF etc, with its own problems, weather, pollution, lack of legal recourse, expensive living conditions, etc.

But at the end of the day, those who choose to remain in SA do so at their own free choice, and thereby accept it warts an'all.

Migration of people has been occuring for centuries and its nothing new to South Africa. Many SA citizens who have the means to immigrate never the less do however, choose to stay in their home country and make it the best that it can be.

I rejoice at the fact that its people like you who actually decide to remove yourself from South Africa, as in the end, the people who remain are of a special personality with specific levels of tolerance tailored for the South African way, therfore that in itself will make this a better country to live and work in.

Negative and unjustified criticism from back seat drivers like yourself add to an economical phenomen referred to as the "law of diminishing returns" . so for you to leave, in a way is for the betterment of SA society.

Good luck in whichever country you make your new home.

I'm sure you'll make it the best you can, as I will in SA.

[nugpot]

Negative and unjustified criticism from back seat drivers like yourself

Jetnut, how many faces do you see in the mirror when you shave in the morning?

I would like to refer you to your previous negative and critical posts on various threads on this site.........

SAA will probably survive the restructuring process and I think the pilots will lose relatively little, but I do think that this has served as a wake-up call for those who were contemplating leaving this lovely little corner of Africa.

For Avi8tor and his mates. The playing fields are as level as they will get for the foreseeable future. The other airlines knew what the conditions in SA were when they started operating here. Their pilots knew that they would operate against a state supported airline and that they would never earn SAA level salaries. Those that could not abide by that, left the country and now sit in some forsaken desert or monsoon area and chirp from the peanut gallery.

Get over it guys. SAA will not be privatised and will continue to be supported by the state, even if it uses up every cent of VAT that Avi8tor pays on his trips to SA.

This is from the LABOUR AND PUBLIC ENTERPRISES SELECT COMMITTEE
11 September 2007
SAA RESTRUCTURING: DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES BRIEFING.

Ms Terblanche stated that the tax payers have always bailed out SAA in the past. DPE should state whether privatization would be a possibility, if the restructuring process were to fail.

Mr Shaw responded that it was true that SAA had been bailed out before; however the restructuring process would be different from the previous attempts. DPE was looking at a process which would be monitored on a regular basis. However when it came to privitisation, one needed to look at the industry and determine who would take on an airline such as SAA under the conditions that it was facing. DPE was focused on making the restructuring process work.

[SAT_BOSS]

Thanks Supporters!!!!

Many thanks to all the guys with the very positive feedback. Its still as clear as daylight to me = Minus the Math Off Course!
That:::
For as long as I still pay taxes in South Africa (and I do) I actually am by default a co owner of each and every one of your SAA babies's asses. And for as long as that is the case I will be on the case of SAA to be accountable for my money.
See some guys actually work to get it together and others don't. That's irrelevant, what is very relevant is that for as long as I am a Tax Payer, I am a co owner, and thus by default have the right to know what you do with my money.
Nothing in life is perfect, but its pretty perfect when you had your kid fall of his bycicle, take him to the county hospital for an X Ray, 3 Stitches, Injections, Antibiotic, Tetanus and then waslk out having had to pay NADA, then its not so bad.
Heck I dont even OWN key for my garage, we would not know how to lock it ... Thanks once more guys & blessings .....

[Avi8tor]

SAA will probably survive the restructuring process and I think the pilots will lose relatively little

SAA will not be privatised and will continue to be supported by the state

You are totally correct in both of the statements. I have said as much in many of the threads. Personally I think the restructuring will change very little.

But just because its the status quo, doesn't make it right. The point is that we have to change attitudes. Otherwise aviation is SA will remain in the dark ages.

This is also NOT a pro/anti new SA debate. Neither about 'jumping ship'.

Negative and unjustified criticism

I see NOTHING unjustified in demanding change at an airline that has wasted BILLIONS of the taxpayers money. Actually its called being a responsible citizen.

P.S. find an economics text book, chapter 1 for the definition of 'the law of diminishing returns'.

[square leg]

Facts

Somebody mentioned getting into SAA with only a comm...

The following is from SAA's website:

In order to qualify, applicants must be :-

South African citizens,
matriculated, with a pass in Mathematics or Physical Science
in possession of a valid SA Commercial Pilot’s Licence or higher with an Instrument Rating Endorsement
a valid Class 1 medical.
All applicants should have at least 1,000 hours experience which should include at least 220 hours experience on multi-engine aircraft.

I fail to see why somebody who's only got a comm shouldn't be taken by SAA.

[Frogman1484]

Jetnut let me see if your theory is correct

"I rejoice at the fact that its people like you who actually decide to remove yourself from South Africa, as in the end, the people who remain are of a special personality with specific levels of tolerance tailored for the South African way, therefore that in itself will make this a better country to live and work in."

So according to that statement Zimbabwe should be the best place to live in right, the zimbo's that are still living there must have the best personalties around and because the rest of the people have left Zimbabwe it is now a much better country to live in....right!!!

Jetnut , name we one thing that has gotten better in the last 5 years, apart from your security system.

[nugpot]

For as long as I still pay taxes in South Africa (and I do) I actually am by default a co owner of each and every one of your SAA babies's asses. And for as long as that is the case I will be on the case of SAA to be accountable for my money.
See some guys actually work to get it together and others don't. That's irrelevant, what is very relevant is that for as long as I am a Tax Payer, I am a co owner, and thus by default have the right to know what you do with my money.

You are actually completely wrong. The state is a legal person, represented in a legal sense by an elected government. It owns certain commercial ventures. You as taxpayer actually has no say except to use your vote to get your choice of government elected. You also do not get a say in how tax money is spent, again only by utilising your vote can you have any input in this process.

After you have paid your taxes as is required by law, the money ceases to be yours and belongs to the state. The same way that you don't get to tell Raymond Ackermann how to run his business after you have spent money at his enterprise.

So to sum up. Whether you like the stance of the current government regarding SAA or not, you have no say and can whinge as long as you want. I suggest you canvas a few more votes to get your personal favourite elected to government and you can then badger him, as your representative to change things at SAA.

I am no fan of the current SAA setup, but I work in an industry where we have lots of other challenges. Safety standards in Africa is on the slide and the regulator seems to be unable to tackle the problem. SAA, using their significant resources has been addressing some of these problems and are doing something to help all the pilots in this country. The have used their pilots and aircraft to get GNSS approaches and RNAV routes validated for all of us to use. They have used their commercial muscle to improve facilities at the airports they operate to, all to the advantage of those that follow. Their pilots are well trained and all of the CRM programmes in SA are based on theirs. Their pilots have maintained high operational standards despite being subjected to revolving management intent on raping the company for personal gain.

That the SAA pilots earn huge salaries in the SA context is true, but they have negotiated those salaries without resorting to strike action. If their current management was prepared to negotiate in good faith, the pilots might have had to take a paycut, but as things currently stand - SAA management is putting themselves in a position where the pilots will win the day. Unfortunately management is trying to threaten SAAPA with an empty gun, and they will fail to win significant concessions.

And Jetnut, please don't applaud this post, because I do not agree with you on anything! I have many other mates at SAA though, and I am particularly tired of the taxpayer argument.

[SAT_BOSS]

Do you guys undergo a lobotomy when you get into SAA?

After you have paid your taxes as is required by law, the money ceases to be yours and belongs to the state. The same way that you don't get to tell Raymond Ackermann how to run his business after you have spent money at his enterprise.
That about sums it all up, someone pays & you have no leg to stand on ....
If Raymond Ackerman ran SAA he would have had the whole lot of you fired and the few good ones left over would have become tire cleaners!!! Raymond is actually for your information very accountable; it’s called shareholders / stock exchange and things like that.
But after being lobotomized you have to have big Government Protect you. So far SAA has done about two things right:
1. Got a Cadet Scheme going thus leveling the playing field.
2. Sorry can't do the math ....

[Gyro Nut]

Nugpot, that reply has to make the most sense I have heard in a long time. Well done. Everything you say is very true. The salary issue for the SAA pilots is also very stale now.

[Avi8tor]

Everything you say is very true. The salary issue for the SAA pilots is also very stale now.

I take it you earn one of those salaries?

Its not about SAA pilot's salaries. If SAA could afford it, they could pay the tea girl a million rands. They cant, and SAA, top to bottom is over paid and underworked. Its broke.

I am fairly sure SAA cant use less fuel, catering is cut to the bone. SAA has entered some silly lease deals to hide its losses. SAA seems to charge market related fares. So what is left?

I still have not seen any viable arguments from any of you SAA types.

[Gyro Nut]

No, also didn't make the cut, but am not bitter and twisted about it. I don't begrudge them their salaries. Nugpot's right, what the government does with our taxpayer's money is the governments prerogative. If we don't like it, the people must vote in a new government. Unfortunately the average SA citizen is clueless as to the financial position of SAA.

[Solid Rust Twotter]

So I guess little fingers in the govt till is OK then.....

[ZERO3L]

Hey Avi8tor! You must have the best job of all judging by the amount of time you have to respond to the various threads! I mean it-I enjoy your inputs, but wish I had the time to reply like you do!!Keep it up.

[Avi8tor]

LOL...I do.

I don't begrudge them their salaries

Neither do I, its SAA's inability to pay them that gets me.

I find it really funny that guys complain about the government being totally useless on crime, roads, hospital etc, but see totally cool with the idea the government can run the national carrier the same way. I wonder why the double standard?

And if we dont complain about SAA, then how can we complain about anything else?

[fluffyfan]

Avi8tor even though I am out of here, I am still firmly on the side of the SAA pilots.

I find it really funny that guys complain about the government being totally useless on crime, roads, hospital etc, but see totally cool with the idea the government can run the national carrier the same way. I wonder why the double standard?

Not one SAA pilot I have met is happy with the way things are done at SAA, the union has been fighting against those useless in management for a long time, they refuse to listen to us on account of there pig headed arrogance that lets them believe they know what the they are doing. Every SAA pilot would like the company to be a profitable suastainable organisation however when the government insists on interfearing and making SAA a social employment agency what can we do?

Are you suggesting that the pilots take a pay cut because of government interference and the total lack of accountability of any of the previous management? I think thats what DJ would like to see (you still not taking the bait DJ?) because he believes pilots are dispensable and there are 500 CV's waiting.............little does he know that even though there are 500 CV's, they may not be many people left who are qualified who want to come to SAA, the pilots run most of the flight Ops department most importaintly the training department and I know for a fact they are struggling right now converting 60 or so 747 pilots to the A340......Only DJ could explain to you how 100 new pilots are going to be trained from a training section that is already working hard.......God forbid the training pilots start leaving then we will see some fun.

Like it or not SAA is a legacy airline that has been around for a very long time (they say second in the world, although cant confirm this) we operate big aircraft and we fly around the world, the pilots deserve to be remunated as such, we are not Comair, Nationwide, 1time Kulula so please dont compare us to them. I am not sure what fleet size has to do with how much we should get paid, maybe we should look at how long the airline has been around versus how much we are paid, what that got to anything you may ask.......its taken that long for the pilots at SAA to negotiate a decent wage. Pilots are like Aircraft you need them to run an airline, I dont see SAA running off to Airbus or Boeing and demanding a cut in the lease rates.......because management up. So why must we cut the pilots salaries, the waythings are going experienced pilots are a rare comodity, Emirates (which you may know) need 500 pilots next year, 600 the following year and it continues up, they themselves dont know how they are going to crew the aircraft they are getting, Qantas needs 500 pilots....the list goes on and on, so my untrained management brain tells me that maybe you should pay your pilots well and keep them or let them go and open a whole can of worms as to how you replace them........DJ dont be short sighted on how easy it is, you may think that your experience at Mango is how it works.....not really, try talking to the Emirates recruitment people, you may get the true picture then, oh I forgot you want to make us all contractors with no pension plans..........thats fine, but go and find out how much the rest of the world is paying for contractors, why would anyone work for SAA on a contract basis when the rest of the world is offering twice the amount (and you are safe in those countries)

[fluffyfan]

Suity yes they could outsource there training......at huge cost

Salaries are big at SAA I admit that, this is only a recent developement however, the pilots were paid in the past, the good salaries are due to clever negotiations and 100% representation from our union, if the local competition pilots could only stand together like SAAPA you may find things somewhat different in Comair, Nationwide, 1Time etc.

Its my understanding that SAAPA is willing to negotiate big concessions to the company, however they want assurances that it will be sustainable and that when things change the agreements revert to how they were, the company is demanding an unrealistic profit in the years following restructuring, they are in fact aiming for a target not achieved by any airline in the world that has undergone restructuring, the company is demanding a few things that are unrealisitic including stardard conditions of employment across the board........so the tea lady has as many free tickets as a Captain who has been there 35 years.........the pilots will give concesions, we are just gun shy because this company negotiates in bad faith and they have proved this time and time again.

SAA is short of pilots at the moment, that is a fact so if they start retrenching pilos you can start closing routes and shutting down fleets.....end of SAA.

Lufthansa flies E135's (or 145's) thats a small jet, I bet there pilots are paid well, you may find its just a seniority thing as to which aircraft you fly at Lufthansa.

To be honest with you Suity I dont know which way to go, that song "should I stay or should I go" comes to mind........lets just say that its up to SAA to make the move, the only reason I stay in SA is because of the Job at SAA, why else would I live in a country where I am a second class citizen, my kids are disadvantaged because of there skin colour, there is rampant crime where life means nothing, horrific corruption etc etc etc.....all this for 40+% tax on my salary

[propdrop]

There are certainly some very interesting opinions expressed, and being everyone having iq's of a decent nature all of them have merit. t is in the eye of the beholder methinks. What i think though is the nature of SAA's competition is being ignored. They may be competing against 1time, comair etc locally, but they are in an international market which the local carriers knows very little about. Becuase of this you can never compare pilot or any other persons salary for that matter against that of the local guys. They have to compete on an international level, in terms of salaries and numbers(to be the devils advocate you are allowed 1000hrs in 365 rolling days, why not reach that??).

Pilot salaries are not the issue here. Total company HR cost is. The quetions are simple a)how does SAA salaries compare to the BA's,virgin etc of the world. b) if they are competing with the major carriers, in terms of seats per flight filled, salaries paid across board and aircraft operated, why the ck are they losing money. the reasons may be as big and obvious as SAA's pilot salaries, but those need to be adressed, what the pilots are being paid are irrelevant provided that they are competative salaries.

[Avi8tor]

Salaries are big at SAA I admit that......if the local competition pilots could only stand together............you may find things somewhat different in Comair, Nationwide, 1Time etc.

The staff at the other airlines could go on strike for SAA style money, but the difference here that if the airline doesnt have it, it doesnt have it. At SAA, the begging bowl comes out and the taxpayer chips in.

I see NO difference between SAA's B738's and Comair's B734's, maybe a few extra windows. Ditto with the A319.

If SAA didnt have the magic begging bowl, its staff would have been the highest paid ex employees.

[Gyro Nut]

Apparently the Yank consultants Seabury admitted that SAA has one of the lowest labour costs in the world. Strange that they are seeking the R638 million to come from concessions from labour then.

I think Comair could well afford to pay better, or to back off the work load a bit, but when you see who runs Comair, what can I say, they like to get their pound of flesh. CPA need to put a new demand on the table re: salaries, or negotiate a Extra Flight Pay agreement, like SAAPA did.