What The Real Problem Is At Saa
Join Date: May 2007
Location: GP Midrand for now, the desert soon.
Posts: 60
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think Comair could well afford to pay better, or to back off the work load a bit, but when you see who runs Comair, what can I say, they like to get their pound of flesh. CPA need to put a new demand on the table re: salaries, or negotiate a Extra Flight Pay agreement, like SAAPA did.
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: In the hold
Posts: 182
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jetnut,
It is called a brain drain, and judging by statements like " the people who remain are of a special personality with specific levels of tolerance tailored for the South African way, therfore that in itself will make this a better country to live and work in." you will definitely not qualify.
The majority of emigrants are in the medical field ( just visit a Doctor or hospital in Aus. or Canada) and engineers , now followed by pilots it seems.
Like frogman said, the same foundation Zimbabwe is build on.
It is called a brain drain, and judging by statements like " the people who remain are of a special personality with specific levels of tolerance tailored for the South African way, therfore that in itself will make this a better country to live and work in." you will definitely not qualify.
The majority of emigrants are in the medical field ( just visit a Doctor or hospital in Aus. or Canada) and engineers , now followed by pilots it seems.
Like frogman said, the same foundation Zimbabwe is build on.
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: North
Posts: 278
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The staff at the other airlines could go on strike for SAA style money, but the difference here that if the airline doesnt have it, it doesnt have it.
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Dubai
Age: 56
Posts: 469
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How come Easyjet and Ryanair salaries are so good (comparitivley speaking),
Please refer to a current thread in terms and endearments. http://http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=271434
"....SFO EZY on a sell your soul TRSS. About 3300 net."
And remember in the UK you need 50% of ur salary for accommodation and that would be for a cupboard with a shower in it!!!
Transport is crazy expensive and that is based on 85hrs a month. Would like to know what a SFO at SAA would clear with 20 hrs of exceedance and compare life styles?
Last edited by Avi8tor; 18th Sep 2007 at 21:55.
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: North
Posts: 278
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What is the colour of the sky in your world?
Had you read the posts properly you would have knoticed I was not comparing SAA salaries, I was comparing Ryanair/Easyjet to our equivalent in SA and the result is.......Ryanair and Easyjet pay much more to there crew, the whole discussion was based on your quote
The staff at the other airlines could go on strike for SAA style money, but the difference here that if the airline doesnt have it, it doesnt have it. At SAA,
Virgin/BA.........GBP4000 or R56 000 (2 years service)
Ryanair Captain....GBP2500 or R37 500 (about 5 years service)
I can assure you both those amounts are higher than what a SFO at SAA is taking home with 5 years or more service.........
Yes the cost of living is much higher there but the interest rate is very small so mortgages are affordable, there is law and order, descent public schooling is available, descent free medical, public transport systems.
We are paid well at SAA, but you have to put it in the context of the country we live in and if its worth paying the pilots well to keep them or letting them go to greener pastures...........the way things are going worldwide, taking the cheap option now might just cost you later on
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: on root
Posts: 157
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The posters here aren't having a go at the SAA pilots per se. What I've noticed is there are some SAA pilots who post on here who come across as very arrogant and superior, the main basis of their argument is that (1) they are correct in whatever they say and (2) the only reason others are moaning is that they are not in SAA. So they get shredded. But its not all SAA pilots. We all know people at SAA and by and large they are great guys. We are not having a go at SAA pilots.
That said, the problems still remain.
Why should SAA pilots be paid comparative rates to 'other global airlines'? If you are a lawyer in SA should you get paid the same as a lawyer in NYC? A doctor? Are there global rate scales? No. The local market determines the pay rate. SAA pilots should be paid on a par with other local pilots.
Half of SAA's fleet is domestic. Whats the diff flying a 738 for SAA or a 738 for Mango? The Mango pilots work twice as hard and get paid just over half as much. No diff flying domestic, if you're on a 737, MD, F28, etc you are doing the same job - no reason why salaries should be double. There is something to the argument that internationally we compete (if you can call it that) with other airlines, but remember they are based overseas, and have foreign networks, they are not just returning to JNB like SAA does. And if it comes to that, SAA isn't even competing healthily on that route, so all the more reason to cut costs. When SAA goes to Lagos or Libreville or Lusaka are they competing with the 'other African airlines'? If so, should they get what a 737 driver from Brazzaville gets?
Someone hit the nail on the head with the taxman stepping up to the begging bowl. The only reason why SAA pilots get paid so much is that their union pulled the wool over managements eyes, management didn't really care as it was all coming out of state coffers anyway. Bottom line is....SAA pilots are getting overpaid by local market standards because they are state-subsidised. If SAA were a private airline it would never have happened, it could not sustain such high FDC salaries. And now it's being rationalised, and costs are being cut, things have got to come into line. If negotiations fail, because SAA is technically broke, the govt has a very good case in shutting the whole airline down completely, and forming a new one immediately with the same aircraft, just a new set of staff, all being paid market related salaries and a new set of management systems.
It all boils down to this. SAA could kick out most of its pilots tomorrow (obviously not all at once) and replace them with pilots from the local pool for much less pay. You all know this is true. So the only market-related rate they should pay pilots is the local rate. It does'nt matter what some 777-driver from Hong Kong is getting. Hong Kong has nothing to do with it, SAA just lands there and comes home. Doesn’t matter who flies them, SAA just need to fly their machines from JNB to X and back safely, thats all. Endex.
Someone else responded to a gripe that pilots are getting into SAA with only a comm with " I fail to see why somebody who's only got a comm shouldn't be taken by SAA" after seeing SAA's minimum requirement is only 1000hrs and a comm on their website. Well there's the heart of the matter. Why should people with only a comm get into SAA when there are hundreds of multi-thousand-hour ATPL's who could be employed? Whether it's nepotism or affirmative action, not taking the best person for the job is what has killed (not "is busy killing") SAA. Until the airline gets the best people in the jobs it needs them to do, its never going to recover on its own. Poor staff = poor company = poor results, proven again and again.
Someone else said "I rejoice at the fact that its people like you who actually decide to remove yourself from South Africa, as in the end, the people who remain are of a special personality with specific levels of tolerance tailored for the South African way, therfore that in itself will make this a better country to live and work in." Ja the people who remain are either stuck there or criminals preying on those who are stuck there or BEE elite who are bathing deep in the gravy.
Just listen to South Africa's national anthem - its just as much of a mess as the state of the nation. Three or four different tunes, dunno how many different languages, all cobbled together, hardly anyone knows the words. Its embarrassing. Anyway at least the rugby team looks good to win the world cup this time round again. Nice to have something good happening for a change.
That said, the problems still remain.
Why should SAA pilots be paid comparative rates to 'other global airlines'? If you are a lawyer in SA should you get paid the same as a lawyer in NYC? A doctor? Are there global rate scales? No. The local market determines the pay rate. SAA pilots should be paid on a par with other local pilots.
Half of SAA's fleet is domestic. Whats the diff flying a 738 for SAA or a 738 for Mango? The Mango pilots work twice as hard and get paid just over half as much. No diff flying domestic, if you're on a 737, MD, F28, etc you are doing the same job - no reason why salaries should be double. There is something to the argument that internationally we compete (if you can call it that) with other airlines, but remember they are based overseas, and have foreign networks, they are not just returning to JNB like SAA does. And if it comes to that, SAA isn't even competing healthily on that route, so all the more reason to cut costs. When SAA goes to Lagos or Libreville or Lusaka are they competing with the 'other African airlines'? If so, should they get what a 737 driver from Brazzaville gets?
Someone hit the nail on the head with the taxman stepping up to the begging bowl. The only reason why SAA pilots get paid so much is that their union pulled the wool over managements eyes, management didn't really care as it was all coming out of state coffers anyway. Bottom line is....SAA pilots are getting overpaid by local market standards because they are state-subsidised. If SAA were a private airline it would never have happened, it could not sustain such high FDC salaries. And now it's being rationalised, and costs are being cut, things have got to come into line. If negotiations fail, because SAA is technically broke, the govt has a very good case in shutting the whole airline down completely, and forming a new one immediately with the same aircraft, just a new set of staff, all being paid market related salaries and a new set of management systems.
It all boils down to this. SAA could kick out most of its pilots tomorrow (obviously not all at once) and replace them with pilots from the local pool for much less pay. You all know this is true. So the only market-related rate they should pay pilots is the local rate. It does'nt matter what some 777-driver from Hong Kong is getting. Hong Kong has nothing to do with it, SAA just lands there and comes home. Doesn’t matter who flies them, SAA just need to fly their machines from JNB to X and back safely, thats all. Endex.
Someone else responded to a gripe that pilots are getting into SAA with only a comm with " I fail to see why somebody who's only got a comm shouldn't be taken by SAA" after seeing SAA's minimum requirement is only 1000hrs and a comm on their website. Well there's the heart of the matter. Why should people with only a comm get into SAA when there are hundreds of multi-thousand-hour ATPL's who could be employed? Whether it's nepotism or affirmative action, not taking the best person for the job is what has killed (not "is busy killing") SAA. Until the airline gets the best people in the jobs it needs them to do, its never going to recover on its own. Poor staff = poor company = poor results, proven again and again.
Someone else said "I rejoice at the fact that its people like you who actually decide to remove yourself from South Africa, as in the end, the people who remain are of a special personality with specific levels of tolerance tailored for the South African way, therfore that in itself will make this a better country to live and work in." Ja the people who remain are either stuck there or criminals preying on those who are stuck there or BEE elite who are bathing deep in the gravy.
Just listen to South Africa's national anthem - its just as much of a mess as the state of the nation. Three or four different tunes, dunno how many different languages, all cobbled together, hardly anyone knows the words. Its embarrassing. Anyway at least the rugby team looks good to win the world cup this time round again. Nice to have something good happening for a change.
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: South Africa
Posts: 112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dear JG1
Shame, you really are a confused and narrow minded individual. Your answers to various posts are so far from the truth its frightening.
Yet another expat justification based on a subconscious regret stemming from the realisation of an illinformed decision to leave.
The above quote by you is based on a flawed theory, as by showing only one highly skilled individual who chooses to live and work in SA will cancel that argument.
Why is it that many world-renowned surgeons, engineers, scientists etc. still choose to live and work in SA (they're obviously stupid, or smoking pot, huh), this homegrown expertise provides for a very sustainable economy. Whereas in Dubai, HK etc. these governments need to import the skills. The fact that the UAE society consists of 80% expats should tell you something about there business ethic.
Why can't you just be happy for the people who have decided to stay behind and make SA the best they can. We are all happy for you living in a "safe", "clean" country abroad. So give us a chance too man.
As someone correctly mentioned earlier, the desert is a short term solution, so at the end of the day we all want to return. Who's then going to make sure that everyting is still as the way you left it when you do decide to come back.
I too was tempted by the glitz and shiny aeroplanes in the desert...but through introspection I decided against it....ah well time will tell whether this decision was a good one, or not.
Ja the people who remain are either stuck there or criminals preying on those who are stuck there or BEE elite who are bathing deep in the gravy.
The above quote by you is based on a flawed theory, as by showing only one highly skilled individual who chooses to live and work in SA will cancel that argument.
Why is it that many world-renowned surgeons, engineers, scientists etc. still choose to live and work in SA (they're obviously stupid, or smoking pot, huh), this homegrown expertise provides for a very sustainable economy. Whereas in Dubai, HK etc. these governments need to import the skills. The fact that the UAE society consists of 80% expats should tell you something about there business ethic.
Why can't you just be happy for the people who have decided to stay behind and make SA the best they can. We are all happy for you living in a "safe", "clean" country abroad. So give us a chance too man.
As someone correctly mentioned earlier, the desert is a short term solution, so at the end of the day we all want to return. Who's then going to make sure that everyting is still as the way you left it when you do decide to come back.
I too was tempted by the glitz and shiny aeroplanes in the desert...but through introspection I decided against it....ah well time will tell whether this decision was a good one, or not.
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
Posts: 147
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"If negotiations fail, because SAA is technically broke, the govt has a very good case in shutting the whole airline down completely, and forming a new one immediately with the same aircraft, just a new set of staff, all being paid market related salaries and a new set of management systems."
Look out at FAJS next time around. Notice the bright orange Mango livery? This is happening already! Negotiations should be done in good faith. Clearly SAA management will not be showing any good faith in their negotiations. DJ always responded previously to set the record straight. He has been conspicuously quiet on this one!
Look out at FAJS next time around. Notice the bright orange Mango livery? This is happening already! Negotiations should be done in good faith. Clearly SAA management will not be showing any good faith in their negotiations. DJ always responded previously to set the record straight. He has been conspicuously quiet on this one!
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: on root
Posts: 157
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jetnut, I don't regret leaving SA. The modern SA is not the SA I had a childhood in and grew up in, its a totally different place. Sure, I miss the african sunsets and sunrises and the landscape....but all I have to do to justify my decision is pick up a SA newspaper.
If its not serious crime or runaway corruption its government ineptness, or another scandal where they all get away with it in the end. MP's and Ministers with criminal records, the Telecommunications Minister not far behind the Health Minister in uselessness, more renaming places, and more political infighting between people and parties whom you fund yet you will never ever have the slightest say. I even heard a radio advert on 94.7 streaming the other day advising refugees of their rights
Gotta say, Mugabe's done the impossible, every time we think it can't get any worse, it does!
In the aviation scene more old jets being bought or sold or painted different colours, the flag-carrier failing....eish what a great place. Going African. The jungle is closing in.
Jetnut there's a whole world out here, places which are every bit as beautiful as SA, where your kids have equal opportunities at education and employment. If they want to get ahead they don't have to find a black parasite to partner just so that they can start a business. Places where you can sleep soundly at night without fear of being beaten and killed after your wife is raped in front of you. Places where your car can break down and you have more than a 50-50 chance of survival. Where you can park your car safely without the everpresent 'Hello boss' extortion. Jetnut, there are places with sidewalks in the outside world, neat, kept sidewalks, instead of the dust and rubble the SA taxi drivers use to fly past you ruining your Sunday-afternoon polish job.
Places where, if you bend over backward to help people, like most whites in SA have done with the blacks since transformation, they respond in kind instead of always demanding more. See the light.
You ask "Why is it that many world-renowned surgeons, engineers, scientists etc. still choose to live and work in SA (they're obviously stupid, or smoking pot, huh), this homegrown expertise provides for a very sustainable economy. Whereas in Dubai, HK etc. these governments need to import the skills." Jetnut, many many many have. Why are SA hospitals in such a state? Why are there foreign contract engineers required? Ones that I know who stay in SA do so because of elderly parents whom they don't want to leave (but will leave as soon as the last one has pegged) or a wife who doesn't want to leave for family reasons. Some do want to stay, they like it there, but you do get some stoopid doctors too
If its not serious crime or runaway corruption its government ineptness, or another scandal where they all get away with it in the end. MP's and Ministers with criminal records, the Telecommunications Minister not far behind the Health Minister in uselessness, more renaming places, and more political infighting between people and parties whom you fund yet you will never ever have the slightest say. I even heard a radio advert on 94.7 streaming the other day advising refugees of their rights
Gotta say, Mugabe's done the impossible, every time we think it can't get any worse, it does!In the aviation scene more old jets being bought or sold or painted different colours, the flag-carrier failing....eish what a great place. Going African. The jungle is closing in.
Jetnut there's a whole world out here, places which are every bit as beautiful as SA, where your kids have equal opportunities at education and employment. If they want to get ahead they don't have to find a black parasite to partner just so that they can start a business. Places where you can sleep soundly at night without fear of being beaten and killed after your wife is raped in front of you. Places where your car can break down and you have more than a 50-50 chance of survival. Where you can park your car safely without the everpresent 'Hello boss' extortion. Jetnut, there are places with sidewalks in the outside world, neat, kept sidewalks, instead of the dust and rubble the SA taxi drivers use to fly past you ruining your Sunday-afternoon polish job.
Places where, if you bend over backward to help people, like most whites in SA have done with the blacks since transformation, they respond in kind instead of always demanding more. See the light.
You ask "Why is it that many world-renowned surgeons, engineers, scientists etc. still choose to live and work in SA (they're obviously stupid, or smoking pot, huh), this homegrown expertise provides for a very sustainable economy. Whereas in Dubai, HK etc. these governments need to import the skills." Jetnut, many many many have. Why are SA hospitals in such a state? Why are there foreign contract engineers required? Ones that I know who stay in SA do so because of elderly parents whom they don't want to leave (but will leave as soon as the last one has pegged) or a wife who doesn't want to leave for family reasons. Some do want to stay, they like it there, but you do get some stoopid doctors too
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: terra softa
Posts: 111
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
JetNut,
On the contrary, I think it was a very well-informed decision to leave. Since you're a fellow that likes to bandy the facts about, try these for size:
I refer you to the UN Human Development Index (HDI), which ranks countries based on the usual criteria such as life expectancy, literacy, education, standard of living, etc. The countries that you love to bash for their climate, pollution, lack of legal recourse, etc (although you deny doing it) are normally the "sandpit" (see EK, EY, QR, etc) and HK.
Although the HDI does not list HK specifically, Singapore (which I'm sure you'll put in the same category) and the UAE rank 25th and 49th respectively. SA, on the other hand, finds itself in a rather lowly 121st position, wedged firmly between Equitorial Guinea and Tajikistan. You must be so proud.
For the record, I - like suitcaseman - have no intention of returning to SA in my latter years, so please don't leave the outside light on for me. You'll also note that according to that survey, with the exception of Haiti, the 30 least livable countries in the world are all in Africa. Ill-informed decision? I think not.
Yet another expat justification based on a subconscious regret stemming from the realisation of an illinformed decision to leave.
I refer you to the UN Human Development Index (HDI), which ranks countries based on the usual criteria such as life expectancy, literacy, education, standard of living, etc. The countries that you love to bash for their climate, pollution, lack of legal recourse, etc (although you deny doing it) are normally the "sandpit" (see EK, EY, QR, etc) and HK.
Although the HDI does not list HK specifically, Singapore (which I'm sure you'll put in the same category) and the UAE rank 25th and 49th respectively. SA, on the other hand, finds itself in a rather lowly 121st position, wedged firmly between Equitorial Guinea and Tajikistan. You must be so proud.
For the record, I - like suitcaseman - have no intention of returning to SA in my latter years, so please don't leave the outside light on for me. You'll also note that according to that survey, with the exception of Haiti, the 30 least livable countries in the world are all in Africa. Ill-informed decision? I think not.
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: North
Posts: 278
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
JG1 your quote
are you sure about this JG1...have you done any research or you just hoping like 
you are right?
Ok, then please go to the Middle East forum and post the same about Emirates......they should be paid the same as Jupiter Airlines
Maybe BA should be paid the same as Ryanair, maybe United the same as "Startedyesterdaywith1Kingair Airlines"
In fact here is an idea, every time a new airline is started, and no matter who the boss is or how he has found a new way to screw the crew.....we should re-evaluate everyone else's salaries and bring them all in line with the new company
dont think you thought this one through bright boy
Why should SAA pilots be paid comparative rates to 'other global airlines'? If you are a lawyer in SA should you get paid the same as a lawyer in NYC? A doctor? Are there global rate scales? No. The local market determines the pay rate. SAA pilots should be paid on a par with other local pilots.
Are there global rate scales? No. The local market determines the pay rate
you are right?Ok, then please go to the Middle East forum and post the same
about Emirates......they should be paid the same as Jupiter Airlines
Jupiter Airlines is an airline based in Abu Dhabi, United Arab Emirates. They began by flying domestic routes within the United Arab Emirates, but have added various major cities in the Middle East to their list of destinations.The company has grown from humble beginning with one 737 in 1996, to become one of the largest flights network in the region
In fact here is an idea, every time a new airline is started, and no matter who the boss is or how he has found a new way to screw the crew.....we should re-evaluate everyone else's salaries and bring them all in line with the new company
dont think you thought this one through bright boy
Last edited by fluffyfan; 19th Sep 2007 at 21:17.
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: South Africa
Posts: 510
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ryanair Captain....GBP2500 or R37 500 (about 5 years service)
I can assure you both those amounts are higher than what a SFO at SAA is taking home with 5 years or more service.........
I can assure you both those amounts are higher than what a SFO at SAA is taking home with 5 years or more service.........
That's besides the point though. We all know that pilot salaries at SAA is not why the airline is in trouble. That reducing pilot renumeration will solve the problem is just pure fantasy.
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: North
Posts: 278
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I beg to differ fluffy
I take home less than that published above a month.......and according to suitcaseman that figure is too low
I just spoke to a couple of Ryanair pilots - youngsters earning a whole lot more than whats posted - remember, most of those posts are from cadets.
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: South Africa
Posts: 112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
what is it about SAA
that makes pilots so reluctant to leave.
Just heard that an FO handed in his resignation, and after coming to his senses, withdrew the resignation just four days later. Guess, he's not going to make that mistake again
.
Just heard that an FO handed in his resignation, and after coming to his senses, withdrew the resignation just four days later. Guess, he's not going to make that mistake again
.
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Where the family is
Posts: 282
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To move is a very, very big issue. Especially if you have a family. If you are young and single, it's as easy as pissing in a bucket, but when there are other people to consider, it becomes increasingly difficult. I take my hat off to those that have left, it's a bold move. I'm staying for now though, and I don't give a rats arse what others think of my decision. Emirates, et al will always be there, they are not going anywhere. If required I'll apply at a later stage. I'm not going to panic now, that's exactly what is expected of me by management.
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Joburg
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SAA resignation withdrawal
The only pilot who handed in his resignation was a very junior Indian FO who had been offered a job by Qatar. He withdrew it after both his fleet Captain and the director of flight ops called him in and convinced him to do so.
Why haven't others withdrawn their resignations (17 so far) - because they are all white and the company did not call them in and ask them to stay!!!!
Why haven't others withdrawn their resignations (17 so far) - because they are all white and the company did not call them in and ask them to stay!!!!
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: on root
Posts: 157
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fluffy... start thinking and you will, albeit very slowly, realise that Emirates hasn't got herds of local pilots clamouring at the door like SAA has. The UAE simply hasn't got a large pool of experienced local ATPL's knocking on the door to get into Emirates, so Emirates has to pay better or on a par with the other airlines it is recruiting from to attract them to the UAE. Bet you as soon as the Jupiter guys get enough experience Emirates will take them in.
And, lightie, if I had wanted any sh1t out of you, I would have squeezed your head
And, lightie, if I had wanted any sh1t out of you, I would have squeezed your head
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: North
Posts: 278
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
you got me running scared JG1, but my point stands, even if we excluded Emitrates from your little scenario, which I dont think we should but ok lets do it just for fun.......what about BA? should they get the same as Eezyjet or Ryanair? what about Qantas? United? ok I will stop there
And, lightie, if I had wanted any sh1t out of you, I would have squeezed your head