SAA Pilots leaving ??
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I'm an SAA SFO and I'm considering all my options. SAA is no longer an airline in which I can maintain a sense of pride or where I see a future for myself. I will be moving on in the near future. And there are many of my fellow FO's who are waiting for interviews with EK, Oasis and various other airlines and they will leave. I know of one FO who just resigned to join Jetstar, another who is on course with Oasis, and many more on the verge of resigning as soon as the various job offers come in.
Last edited by TooBadSoSad; 27th Aug 2007 at 10:47.
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A bit off the original topic here:
I haven't been back on PPRUNE since my last reply to Eraser #5 , by the looks of things this thread sure got a lot of attention if one has to go by the number of ''views-strikes'' and replies !
I think by the replies so far, it does look like the FO's are looking around---a ''thing'' that was quiet for a number of years appears to be ''waking up'' again !!
SC2 !
I haven't been back on PPRUNE since my last reply to Eraser #5 , by the looks of things this thread sure got a lot of attention if one has to go by the number of ''views-strikes'' and replies !
I think by the replies so far, it does look like the FO's are looking around---a ''thing'' that was quiet for a number of years appears to be ''waking up'' again !!
SC2 !
Last edited by skychick2; 27th Aug 2007 at 15:20.
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The problem all SAA FO's will have is matching the money. And at the end of the day, thats whats counts. 
Even with the no tax status in the UAE, for an SAA FO its not worth it. Also he will have to fly 85 to 100 hard hours.
Remember there is loads of people waiting for their jobs.
Even with the no tax status in the UAE, for an SAA FO its not worth it. Also he will have to fly 85 to 100 hard hours.
Remember there is loads of people waiting for their jobs.
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The problem all SAA FO's will have is matching the money
But, the reality is, I seriously doubt SAA management will consider such a move in the current labour environment. Maybe 5 years ago when world aviation was stagnating.....but then again, management is known to make decisions contrary to current international norms...aah well...guess farming is starting to look quite attractive.
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SAA is no longer an airline in which I can maintain a sense of pride or where I see a future for myself. I will be moving on in the near future.
Bon voyage.Give someone who actually wants it a chance.
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Greeson, that is not called an attitude, it is called reality. I also have a family and I am also not on the youthful side of the age curve, but this time SAA management is going to use "you" to get out of the sh-t, and you won't be working for the same airline you have for the last 30 years. Even Captains are looking at moving, and not just a few either.
When you have a wage freeze for the next few years (effectively an annual wage cut of 8% or more), start flying 80 hard hours per month (every month), have your S&T reduced so much that you have to pay in just to eat two meals a day overseas, stay in 2 to 3 star hotels, your leave is reduced to 20 "business" days per month, you get 14 days sick leave per year, and have your travel benefits reduced to the point that it's a pain in the ass to use them, and then your airline gets hit with another R300 million fine because some overpaid and under-qualified cargo exec decided to screw around with cargo fuel levies, and the airline adds that to the "gap" they want labour to make up!!
Are you proud of the airline you work for? Does the most deserving pilot get hired when the airline is employing? Are our customers happy? Look in the mirror, mate, and see if your shirt is still on your back because your management is taking you for all they can.
When you have a wage freeze for the next few years (effectively an annual wage cut of 8% or more), start flying 80 hard hours per month (every month), have your S&T reduced so much that you have to pay in just to eat two meals a day overseas, stay in 2 to 3 star hotels, your leave is reduced to 20 "business" days per month, you get 14 days sick leave per year, and have your travel benefits reduced to the point that it's a pain in the ass to use them, and then your airline gets hit with another R300 million fine because some overpaid and under-qualified cargo exec decided to screw around with cargo fuel levies, and the airline adds that to the "gap" they want labour to make up!!
Are you proud of the airline you work for? Does the most deserving pilot get hired when the airline is employing? Are our customers happy? Look in the mirror, mate, and see if your shirt is still on your back because your management is taking you for all they can.
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What is about to happen in SAA, is exactly what occured in the SAAF in the early '90's.
Then, the SAAF HQ were out of touch with the turn in the aviation market and during the restructuring (or rather 'destructuring') handed out packages to pilots. Within a year they were losing pilots hand over fist, and had a severe shortage of pilots. (The expertise they had, they will never replace)
I think, with what is happening in SAA today and managements restructuring proposals, it's going to create the same vacuum. I agree totally with TooBadSoSad regarding the state of the airline and with the upswing in the worlds airline industry, there is going to be alot of pilot resignations over the near to middle term.
Some might say, thats great, it will create more opportunities for people who wish to stay here. However, only once you are in SAA, you may realise that all is not what it is made out to be, or was. And you may start wondering wether SAA is the airline career you are looking for or merely just another stepping stone. Which in that case, you would rather have gone to Comair,Nationwide, etc, got a far quicker command instead of sitting 3 years as a P3 and made yourself more marketable internationally!
Unfortunately as long as SAA remains a government run airline, making political decisions and not business decisions, a long term career at SAA looks rather bleek.
Then, the SAAF HQ were out of touch with the turn in the aviation market and during the restructuring (or rather 'destructuring') handed out packages to pilots. Within a year they were losing pilots hand over fist, and had a severe shortage of pilots. (The expertise they had, they will never replace)
I think, with what is happening in SAA today and managements restructuring proposals, it's going to create the same vacuum. I agree totally with TooBadSoSad regarding the state of the airline and with the upswing in the worlds airline industry, there is going to be alot of pilot resignations over the near to middle term.
Some might say, thats great, it will create more opportunities for people who wish to stay here. However, only once you are in SAA, you may realise that all is not what it is made out to be, or was. And you may start wondering wether SAA is the airline career you are looking for or merely just another stepping stone. Which in that case, you would rather have gone to Comair,Nationwide, etc, got a far quicker command instead of sitting 3 years as a P3 and made yourself more marketable internationally!
Unfortunately as long as SAA remains a government run airline, making political decisions and not business decisions, a long term career at SAA looks rather bleek.
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As a matter of intrest, what are these stratospheric salaries at SAA anyway.
By my calculations, the guys that started at SAA when I started at Comair, circa 1996 are still waiting for there commands, currently I am a Captain on step 5 at EK, so as far as my conteparies go I think I'm way ahead.Apples with Apples guys & girls
When on a trip I'm also secure in the knowledge that 99% that my house won't be broken into, car stolen and most important my family won't be hi-jacked raped or murdered.
P.S Aviator do you fly for EK or just believe everything you hear?
By my calculations, the guys that started at SAA when I started at Comair, circa 1996 are still waiting for there commands, currently I am a Captain on step 5 at EK, so as far as my conteparies go I think I'm way ahead.Apples with Apples guys & girls
When on a trip I'm also secure in the knowledge that 99% that my house won't be broken into, car stolen and most important my family won't be hi-jacked raped or murdered.
P.S Aviator do you fly for EK or just believe everything you hear?
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TooBadSoSad, I wont deny you have some very valid points. The thing is we are used to SAA being bashed by bitter non-SAA pilots, not from within. I was at the meeting the other day, I heard same 'cost cutting' plan from the management. The difference is that if you have your heart set on leaving and you surround yourself with like minded colleagues,you add fuel to each others fires, get yourselves all worked up to the point where you are miss some of the good stuff around you. And before everyone says,"What good stuff?",well you'll just prove my point.
Good luck pal,hope you never regret it. More so I hope you're senior to me so I can scratch you off the list.
Good luck pal,hope you never regret it. More so I hope you're senior to me so I can scratch you off the list.
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I am a Captain on step 5 at EK, so as far as my conteparies go I think I'm way ahead.Apples with Apples guys & girls
Sorry friend, think in money terms ur way behind. Also would rather live in Waterkloof Ridge than Jumeira.
But agreed, what price do you put on personal/family saftey?
Oh yes, I believe nothing that I hear or read and only half of what I see.
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It is not only the airline, not only the crime, the safety etc.
I know one of your F/O's that left last month for the sandpit because it got to the point where he was without electricity for a long time. The old cliche about the straw that broke the camil's back. Add to that the Manto/Zuma circus.....
When last did you last travel as a pax in your aircraft, I mean in the back? The only reason I fly SAA into Africa is because of you guys upfront.
I am an ex employee of SAA and I am waiting for my Visa.
I know one of your F/O's that left last month for the sandpit because it got to the point where he was without electricity for a long time. The old cliche about the straw that broke the camil's back. Add to that the Manto/Zuma circus.....
When last did you last travel as a pax in your aircraft, I mean in the back? The only reason I fly SAA into Africa is because of you guys upfront.
I am an ex employee of SAA and I am waiting for my Visa.
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TooBadSoSad..............bye bye, I hope you are above me on the seniority list, good luck.
I was in Hong Kong a few weeks ago, and if you think SAA is the only company with problems think again, very unhappy people there, as there seems to be in virtually every airline in the world, I think pilots are wingers by nature.
One word of advice if I may be so bold, do not take what you have for granted, there are people out there who would give there left nut (as so eloquently put by Greeson) to have your job, maybe you dont appreciate how hard it is to get into SAA, where you in the SAAF? did you just walk into SAA? try contract flying for a few years you may think differently after that experience.
The more the better I say, as long as they are above me on the seniority list, hopefully enough will leave to offset the greedy old buggers who now want to work to 65.
I was in Hong Kong a few weeks ago, and if you think SAA is the only company with problems think again, very unhappy people there, as there seems to be in virtually every airline in the world, I think pilots are wingers by nature.
One word of advice if I may be so bold, do not take what you have for granted, there are people out there who would give there left nut (as so eloquently put by Greeson) to have your job, maybe you dont appreciate how hard it is to get into SAA, where you in the SAAF? did you just walk into SAA? try contract flying for a few years you may think differently after that experience.
The more the better I say, as long as they are above me on the seniority list, hopefully enough will leave to offset the greedy old buggers who now want to work to 65.
Está servira para distraerle.
How does the South African Airways pension scheme compare with any others on offer.
If you were a pilot with SAA at the moment, are you effectively guarenteed employment with the company until pensionable age?
Do these two criteria apply to any of the other airlines under consideration for a move.
Could you ever save sufficiently to provide an equivalent value to the SAA pension?
For how long is it going to be as easy as it may be at the moment to transit jobs from one country/airline to another?
Just four idle thoughts or unanswered questions that have arisen on the basis of a recent conversation with a good friend who is a Captain at SAA.
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Antman I think you are correct in the fact that it is not “Apple’s / Apple’s “comparisons. I know the high tax in S.A. make the pre tax figures look good. According to the Sunday Times on the 19th August the cost of living in S.A. is set to increase drastically over the next couple of years. Half percent interest rate to come in October, on top of the one a month ago.
My parents are pensioners and they feel it every month.
The difference is that if you have your heart set on leaving and you surround yourself with like minded colleagues,you add fuel to each others fires, get yourselves all worked up to the point where you are miss some of the good stuff around you.
A couple of my friends in S.A.A. are looking, not by choice but by the fact that they don’t see a medium or long term future at S.A.A. They are not negative, just very realistic to what is happening. One of them have been on some sort of “New Captain meet and greet” with management a couple of months ago, was verbally told Command would start in August, (his date of joining was 1995) It has now been postponed indefinitely due to the 747-400 Captains being redeployed.
We ran the CX Freighter figures and it is a good proposition, keeping in mind he can ask for Command upgrade after a year on the 400. The CX crews are negotiating for better conditions while S.A.A. will see conditions slide.
Rather cut the losses now then fighting the crowd in 4 years seems to be the general feeling. The end of the year will tell when the new conditions will be known. EY is starting an A320 operation and I know of 3 Captains who have been invited to interviews.
Sorry friend, think in money terms ur way behind. Also would rather live in Waterkloof Ridge than Jumeira
Not sure if your figures is correct, but this will definitely not be the case over the next 10 years.
Let’s not going on the “living in Waterkloof Ridge debate”. The last two S.A. Newspapers I read out of JNB (20th Aug) was The STAR headline: ENOUGH IS ENOUGH (in bald letters)
The BEELD: BLOEBAD (bloodbath) IN PRETORIA. This referred to the murders in Brooklyn , around the corner from Waterkloof, in high security complexes.
Yes, the CX boys are comlpaining, but did you listen to what they complain about?? Complaining with cake in their mouths. But I guess if the company show record profits, with heaps of new aircraft on order you have a right to make demands. I flew with a couple of ex -SAA guys and non of them would think of going back, even though they are part of the whingers.
My parents are pensioners and they feel it every month.
The difference is that if you have your heart set on leaving and you surround yourself with like minded colleagues,you add fuel to each others fires, get yourselves all worked up to the point where you are miss some of the good stuff around you.
A couple of my friends in S.A.A. are looking, not by choice but by the fact that they don’t see a medium or long term future at S.A.A. They are not negative, just very realistic to what is happening. One of them have been on some sort of “New Captain meet and greet” with management a couple of months ago, was verbally told Command would start in August, (his date of joining was 1995) It has now been postponed indefinitely due to the 747-400 Captains being redeployed.
We ran the CX Freighter figures and it is a good proposition, keeping in mind he can ask for Command upgrade after a year on the 400. The CX crews are negotiating for better conditions while S.A.A. will see conditions slide.
Rather cut the losses now then fighting the crowd in 4 years seems to be the general feeling. The end of the year will tell when the new conditions will be known. EY is starting an A320 operation and I know of 3 Captains who have been invited to interviews.
Sorry friend, think in money terms ur way behind. Also would rather live in Waterkloof Ridge than Jumeira
Not sure if your figures is correct, but this will definitely not be the case over the next 10 years.
Let’s not going on the “living in Waterkloof Ridge debate”. The last two S.A. Newspapers I read out of JNB (20th Aug) was The STAR headline: ENOUGH IS ENOUGH (in bald letters)
The BEELD: BLOEBAD (bloodbath) IN PRETORIA. This referred to the murders in Brooklyn , around the corner from Waterkloof, in high security complexes.
Yes, the CX boys are comlpaining, but did you listen to what they complain about?? Complaining with cake in their mouths. But I guess if the company show record profits, with heaps of new aircraft on order you have a right to make demands. I flew with a couple of ex -SAA guys and non of them would think of going back, even though they are part of the whingers.
Last edited by Beta Light; 28th Aug 2007 at 11:54.
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I was in Hong Kong a few weeks ago, and if you think SAA is the only company with problems think again, very unhappy people there.....
fluffyfan...Not really problems here. Just the usual airline politics. As for there being unhappy people here you shouldnt go by what certain people say. Best move I've ever made....
fluffyfan...Not really problems here. Just the usual airline politics. As for there being unhappy people here you shouldnt go by what certain people say. Best move I've ever made....
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SAA and the future
Cant agree more with Beta light - The current salary package at SAA makes life a little more bearable in SA -eg one can afford the extra security and private schooling, however, if what is projected by the restructuring guys and management becomes true (salary cut and severly cut conditions of service) this is going to force a lot of pilots at SAA to look else where.
The irony of this restructuring is that it is a common fact (?!) that the current situation that SAA finds itself in, has been caused by mis management by the top structure of politically appointed managers. After all is said and done by the restructuring team the same management and political masters are still going to be in charge - so anyone can draw their own conclusions.
I wish everyone well with their own personal choice
The irony of this restructuring is that it is a common fact (?!) that the current situation that SAA finds itself in, has been caused by mis management by the top structure of politically appointed managers. After all is said and done by the restructuring team the same management and political masters are still going to be in charge - so anyone can draw their own conclusions.
I wish everyone well with their own personal choice
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Guys, the slow but steady drain of pilots from this country has really been most visible in the "other" non SAA airlines. The symptoms that they have experienced have all been the same, irrespective of the company involved, ie politics, state of the nation, management practises, salary issues, working conditions, promotion prospects, etc. It was only a matter of time before these same symptoms became an issue at SAA.
Everyone just wants a safe and prosperous career with a secure future for themselves and their families. When you couple the scene in South Africa with our aviation market, it's no surprise that the guys are looking outside our borders to secure their future. The world is wide open for SA pilots and unless the general situation in South Africa improves, along with working conditions, career prospects, etc, in the airlines, the boys are going to go.
Anybody that swears allegiance to a company is only fooling himself. There is only one person that is going to look after your future and happiness and that's you! All airlines have their problems - it's up to you to decide which problems are acceptable to you and which ones are not. Nobody else can determine that for you. The grass may not be greener on the other side, just a different flavour and I can't blame guys for making the choice to try it out.
If you're going to move, now is the time with the world crying out for pilots.
Everyone just wants a safe and prosperous career with a secure future for themselves and their families. When you couple the scene in South Africa with our aviation market, it's no surprise that the guys are looking outside our borders to secure their future. The world is wide open for SA pilots and unless the general situation in South Africa improves, along with working conditions, career prospects, etc, in the airlines, the boys are going to go.
Anybody that swears allegiance to a company is only fooling himself. There is only one person that is going to look after your future and happiness and that's you! All airlines have their problems - it's up to you to decide which problems are acceptable to you and which ones are not. Nobody else can determine that for you. The grass may not be greener on the other side, just a different flavour and I can't blame guys for making the choice to try it out.
If you're going to move, now is the time with the world crying out for pilots.