SAA Flight Attendants rip the ring out at IAD
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SAA Flight Attendants rip the ring out at IAD
Sad state of affairs when the bunch-in-the-back starts vetoing the Captain's discretion -
In the event that they're found to have acted illegally, it is imperative for SAA to impose the maximum disciplinary measures, to ensure that this does not become an accepted practice.
4HP
Cash-strapped SAA had to fork out hundreds of thousands of rands after cabin attendants refused to continue with an international flight. The crew of 14 attendants face suspension when they return to work this week pending an investigation into their behaviour. The SAA flight with 244 passengers on board was taxying out from Washington's Dulles Airport when the flight was told to hold due to bad weather.
After an hour's wait the crew approached the captain and informed him they were not prepared to continue with their flight. They said that they would exceed their flight and duty time limits on the 15-hour flight to Johannesburg.
The captain, however, has the discretion, according to SAA's Flight Operations manual as well as international Air Navigation Rules and Regulations, to extend duty time by up to three hours. And he exercised this right. Following extensive consultations, the defiant crew flatly refused to continue. The captain had no option but to cancel the flight to Johannesburg in the interest of passenger safety and comfort. The aircraft had to return to the airport. The overnight accommodation for its 244 passengers and crew, as well as extra handling fees, ran to many hundreds of thousands of rands, the report said. According to Robyn Chalmers, SAA's head of group corporate affairs, not all passengers could be accommodated at hotels. "Due to the lack of beds in Washington, many of our passengers had to spend the night at the airport, for which we apologise." SAA was investigating the situation and if any breaches of onboard discipline and procedures were found, "we will take firm action," said Chalmers, which would begin with the suspension of the crew this week.
After an hour's wait the crew approached the captain and informed him they were not prepared to continue with their flight. They said that they would exceed their flight and duty time limits on the 15-hour flight to Johannesburg.
The captain, however, has the discretion, according to SAA's Flight Operations manual as well as international Air Navigation Rules and Regulations, to extend duty time by up to three hours. And he exercised this right. Following extensive consultations, the defiant crew flatly refused to continue. The captain had no option but to cancel the flight to Johannesburg in the interest of passenger safety and comfort. The aircraft had to return to the airport. The overnight accommodation for its 244 passengers and crew, as well as extra handling fees, ran to many hundreds of thousands of rands, the report said. According to Robyn Chalmers, SAA's head of group corporate affairs, not all passengers could be accommodated at hotels. "Due to the lack of beds in Washington, many of our passengers had to spend the night at the airport, for which we apologise." SAA was investigating the situation and if any breaches of onboard discipline and procedures were found, "we will take firm action," said Chalmers, which would begin with the suspension of the crew this week.
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Contract Dog, I totally agree with you there.
But can someone with some legal insight answer this quessie.
Since it is legally the captains perogative to extend the duty time by 3 hours, does this not come down to mutiny of the crew.
And to answer their pathetic answer of being overworked and putting the passangers lives at risk and inconvenience, they do sweet flop all most of the time anyway......or was it the extra S&T allowance that they scored and screw the pax and whoever else had connecting flights and things to go to.
Ja boet, when the lot in the back start dictating to the okey in the front, it is time to change airlines.
Me, I never travel SAA, as you know that you are never going to leave and arrive on time, and now you dont even know whether it will be the came day.
Goffel...
But can someone with some legal insight answer this quessie.
Since it is legally the captains perogative to extend the duty time by 3 hours, does this not come down to mutiny of the crew.
And to answer their pathetic answer of being overworked and putting the passangers lives at risk and inconvenience, they do sweet flop all most of the time anyway......or was it the extra S&T allowance that they scored and screw the pax and whoever else had connecting flights and things to go to.
Ja boet, when the lot in the back start dictating to the okey in the front, it is time to change airlines.
Me, I never travel SAA, as you know that you are never going to leave and arrive on time, and now you dont even know whether it will be the came day.
Goffel...
Está servira para distraerle.
From some rumbling of the not too distant past comes the remembrance that Captain's discretion may be applied by him in respect of his crew. The crew must agree to the application of discretion for it to be applied. Such agreement, whilst perhaps advisable, is not mandatory. The crews' decision does not have to be unanimous in that so long as minimum crew for safe and legal flight agree to extend a flight duty period into Captain's discretion, the aircraft may depart having left behind any crew who did not agree to extend into discretion.
If that is the case, then the crew were perfectly within their rights in refusing to extend, especially bearing in mind that the flight had not yet left its departure point. Discretion is primarily designed to enable a flight to continue in the event of unforeseen circumstances occurring down route. It may not be used for the purposes of planning a flight.
That said, it is to be hoped that the cabin crew passed a very uncomfortable night on the airport floor rather than returning to the party.
Paxing All Over The World
Children find it such fun to defy mummy and daddy. Unfortunately, they will find that, in the morning, they still have to go to school and learn their lessons.
If this is all true, then SAA had better make sure that they publicise the punishments. Not just for the other staff but for the PAX. Both past and future pax need to know that this will not happen again.
If this is all true, then SAA had better make sure that they publicise the punishments. Not just for the other staff but for the PAX. Both past and future pax need to know that this will not happen again.
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i say again
fire the lot of them. legal BS asside, the MEL and captains discretion are , by my understanding, put in place to afford the crew the oppertunity to continue a flight to the best interest of safety and secondly the interest of the company, some crew seem to forget who pays them each month and when given an opertunity to help the company out within the confines of the law, then by god, the crew should go out of their way to help them out. Why bother to join aviation if you are not prepared to be flexible and ensure the company makes a proffit and everone gets to keep their job. By their actions, they robbed their fellow crew of money in the kitty for bonuses, training, pay increases and so on. if they were my fellow crew, I for one would have a serious issue with that. I hope that SAA makes a serious example of this.
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I think some key statements are ..
However...
Bravo Bravo Bravo for the cabin crew in taking this stance. There is no way that a Captain will enforce his way upon me if it is illegal and I am not in agreement with it..in todays environment of lots of work, maximum FDP's, minimum rest and low low low wages it is unreasonable to expect happy and "willing to go the extra mile" crew members.
Captain's discretion may be applied by him in respect of his crew
The crew must agree to the application of discretion
crew were perfectly within their rights in refusing to extend, especially bearing in mind that the flight had not yet left its departure point
Discretion ....unforeseen circumstances occurring down route. It may not be used for the purposes of planning a flight.
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According to the initial statement at the beginning of this thread, the delay was due to bad weather and therefore not planned.
This is exactly when the discretion rule should be used.
However, the crew should all have been well rested and ready for the flight.
The extension of their duty by 1 hour, and refusing to do it is shameful, why, because there could have been headwinds which would have made the flight last an extra hour, same thing?
Of course if it makes the flight unsafe or they are fatigued for some reason, but could someone in the know inform us of how much rest these people would have likely had before this flight. (what is the schedule for a Washington trip?)
They should all be disciplined, if the flight deck crew deemed it ok to extend by an hour, and lets face it, they are slightly more important than the cabin crew, then the cabin crew could at least do the same. (of course there is no obligation to do so, but common sense must prevail in some instances, and this is one of them.)
Wonder what kind of if authority the captain commands these days anyhow, especially in the special situation of SA/SAA.
This is exactly when the discretion rule should be used.
However, the crew should all have been well rested and ready for the flight.
The extension of their duty by 1 hour, and refusing to do it is shameful, why, because there could have been headwinds which would have made the flight last an extra hour, same thing?
Of course if it makes the flight unsafe or they are fatigued for some reason, but could someone in the know inform us of how much rest these people would have likely had before this flight. (what is the schedule for a Washington trip?)
They should all be disciplined, if the flight deck crew deemed it ok to extend by an hour, and lets face it, they are slightly more important than the cabin crew, then the cabin crew could at least do the same. (of course there is no obligation to do so, but common sense must prevail in some instances, and this is one of them.)
Wonder what kind of if authority the captain commands these days anyhow, especially in the special situation of SA/SAA.
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That's a first. Crew standing down the Captain. Isnt the extension of duty time inevitable now? Maybe they should take a permanent holiday - sack. Poor pax!
Would like to know how they get back to SA. Probably not on SAA.
Would like to know how they get back to SA. Probably not on SAA.
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Here goes but don't quote me -
Non acclimatised cabin crew are allowed a maximum FDP of 13 hours.
However in flight rest of 5 hours is provided in a bunk, therefore maximum FDP may be increased by half the in flight rest provided ie 2.5 hours. Therefore max allowable FDP is now 15.5 hours.
IAD JNB direct is 15 hours block.
Hence with a 1 hour delay, the cabin crew were out of FDP by 30 minutes.
THE CAPTAIN, HOWEVER HAS THE SOLE DISCRETION TO EXTEND A DUTY PERIOD BY A MAXIMUM OF 3 HOURS, PROVIDED HE BELIEVES THE FLIGHT CAN BE COMPLETED SAFELY!
These individuals have a lack of respect for the chain of command ,their profession and their passengers.
Non acclimatised cabin crew are allowed a maximum FDP of 13 hours.
However in flight rest of 5 hours is provided in a bunk, therefore maximum FDP may be increased by half the in flight rest provided ie 2.5 hours. Therefore max allowable FDP is now 15.5 hours.
IAD JNB direct is 15 hours block.
Hence with a 1 hour delay, the cabin crew were out of FDP by 30 minutes.
THE CAPTAIN, HOWEVER HAS THE SOLE DISCRETION TO EXTEND A DUTY PERIOD BY A MAXIMUM OF 3 HOURS, PROVIDED HE BELIEVES THE FLIGHT CAN BE COMPLETED SAFELY!
These individuals have a lack of respect for the chain of command ,their profession and their passengers.
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THE CAPTAIN, HOWEVER HAS THE SOLE DISCRETION TO EXTEND A DUTY PERIOD BY A MAXIMUM OF 3 HOURS, PROVIDED HE BELIEVES THE FLIGHT CAN BE COMPLETED SAFELY!
I am sure that had the situation been put across more diplomatically and in a sense of "team-work" the outcome might have been different.
CRM ..thats my humble opnion.....or possible lack of "tact there-of
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Cabin Crew often work out of time and duty, and one flight gets cancelled and now everyone thinks its lack of discipline!!! Good for them, that is quite a hectic night stop in the first place for such a long flight!! Flight crew and cabin crew should stick together and stop talking sh... about each other!!
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Managing a large aircraft (or a small one for that matter) is not a democratic process; decisions need to be made and at times they will not be popular. The captain of the aircraft is the individual delegated by the company (and the regulatory authority) to make such decisions.
Someone has screwed up here - I would place my money on the fact that the captain's calculation on whether his discretionary decision was legal or not was correct. And I would hazard a guess that the CC's decision was based on the fact that they were going to be tired at the end of all of this.
My point is that it won't take more than one round-table to work out who was at fault in this decision-making process. And if the CC are unable to justify their decision then the company should ****-can the lot of them to make it clear to rest of the company that decisions such as this require responsibility.
4HP
Someone has screwed up here - I would place my money on the fact that the captain's calculation on whether his discretionary decision was legal or not was correct. And I would hazard a guess that the CC's decision was based on the fact that they were going to be tired at the end of all of this.
My point is that it won't take more than one round-table to work out who was at fault in this decision-making process. And if the CC are unable to justify their decision then the company should ****-can the lot of them to make it clear to rest of the company that decisions such as this require responsibility.
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could not agree more 4HP
i am dam sure that the captain of that a/c did NOT get his position from poor decision making. The buck stops with him and if he is fine to fly then i am pretty sure that that the CC could manage their job in a safe manner.
i am dam sure that the captain of that a/c did NOT get his position from poor decision making. The buck stops with him and if he is fine to fly then i am pretty sure that that the CC could manage their job in a safe manner.
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I must add that I am shocked that in this modern day and age there are still thought processes along the lines that the Captain still carries the ultimate and overiding decision making (popular or un-popular) decision that can ruin a team work and CRM process just because he is empowered by the company and authorities to be in that position.
If this is the way things are developing then it wouldn't surprise me if more of these rebelions are going to take place, never mind the the total breakdown of communication between flightdeck and cabin crew, where its even possible that the cabin crew will maliciously not bring a safety related issue to the flightdecks attention because of the wall that the flightdeck crew have built up, due to their arrogant and "god-like" attitude towards their own cabin crew.
The previous statements make it sound like the "glorified-bus-drivers" are beter than the "kitchen staff and waiters", just wait until the busdrivers scrape the tail on their Jumbo and don,t know it, the cabin crew in the rear hear it but keep quite on purpose to "just let them figure it out for themselves up-front, why should we tell him that he just messed-up, he just disrespects us in any case"
IMHO
If this is the way things are developing then it wouldn't surprise me if more of these rebelions are going to take place, never mind the the total breakdown of communication between flightdeck and cabin crew, where its even possible that the cabin crew will maliciously not bring a safety related issue to the flightdecks attention because of the wall that the flightdeck crew have built up, due to their arrogant and "god-like" attitude towards their own cabin crew.
The previous statements make it sound like the "glorified-bus-drivers" are beter than the "kitchen staff and waiters", just wait until the busdrivers scrape the tail on their Jumbo and don,t know it, the cabin crew in the rear hear it but keep quite on purpose to "just let them figure it out for themselves up-front, why should we tell him that he just messed-up, he just disrespects us in any case"
IMHO
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Discretion
Linedriver,
I think you have got it all wrong. There may be a few Capts. out there who think they are God, but for the most part they are all just professionals trying their best to carry out their duties with due regard to safety, the law, passenger comfort and economic viability of the company.
If Cabin Crew did as you seem to suggest and failed to report safety items it would only further highlight the calibre of cabin crew you work with, and your airline employs.
As was stated earlier, It is at the sole discretion of the Capt. to apply an extension to duty. However, you seem to have missed the point that he still needs agreement of the rest of the crew. (In this case he did not get it, so was forced to cancel the flight.) The rest of the crew however should realize that "No Fly" means No Income for the company, therefore NO JOB!
When will they Learn? Hopefully in their next place of employment!
I think you have got it all wrong. There may be a few Capts. out there who think they are God, but for the most part they are all just professionals trying their best to carry out their duties with due regard to safety, the law, passenger comfort and economic viability of the company.
If Cabin Crew did as you seem to suggest and failed to report safety items it would only further highlight the calibre of cabin crew you work with, and your airline employs.
As was stated earlier, It is at the sole discretion of the Capt. to apply an extension to duty. However, you seem to have missed the point that he still needs agreement of the rest of the crew. (In this case he did not get it, so was forced to cancel the flight.) The rest of the crew however should realize that "No Fly" means No Income for the company, therefore NO JOB!
When will they Learn? Hopefully in their next place of employment!
Está servira para distraerle.
hmm:
Actually, in terms of extension of duty by the use of captain's discretion, the crew would not legally be required to justify their decision not to comply with the captain's request.
The captain was no doubt quite corrrect in his calculations and interpretations. The decision on the part of the crew not to extend a flight duty period for a single sector flight (?no en route stops?) seems fatuously self serving. Such a decision, on the face of it, demonstrates an attitude which is incomprehensibly inimicable to company interests and common sense.
Nonetheless, whatever the reasons for the cabin crews' decision, they were almost certainly entitled to make the choice that they did. It is probably unlikely that there will be any punitive action directed towards them by SAA and it is hard to see that there justifiably could be, given that discretion is a voluntary process. It is also doubtful that SAA would wish to attract IATA attention to itself by attempting to enforce the extension of an FDP by a company policy of compulsory excercise of discretion.
It should not be forgotten that discretion is a two way street. It can be used to continue a flight when it is to the advantage, usually a personal one, of one or more crew members to do so. It is not necessarily only another weapon in the company arsenal with which to whip the mule train home.
Actually, in terms of extension of duty by the use of captain's discretion, the crew would not legally be required to justify their decision not to comply with the captain's request.
The captain was no doubt quite corrrect in his calculations and interpretations. The decision on the part of the crew not to extend a flight duty period for a single sector flight (?no en route stops?) seems fatuously self serving. Such a decision, on the face of it, demonstrates an attitude which is incomprehensibly inimicable to company interests and common sense.
Nonetheless, whatever the reasons for the cabin crews' decision, they were almost certainly entitled to make the choice that they did. It is probably unlikely that there will be any punitive action directed towards them by SAA and it is hard to see that there justifiably could be, given that discretion is a voluntary process. It is also doubtful that SAA would wish to attract IATA attention to itself by attempting to enforce the extension of an FDP by a company policy of compulsory excercise of discretion.
It should not be forgotten that discretion is a two way street. It can be used to continue a flight when it is to the advantage, usually a personal one, of one or more crew members to do so. It is not necessarily only another weapon in the company arsenal with which to whip the mule train home.
Last edited by cavortingcheetah; 21st May 2007 at 06:54.
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Line-Driver said...' I am shocked that in this modern day and age there are still thought processes along the lines that the Captain still carries the ultimate and overiding decision making (popular or un-popular) decision that can ruin a team work and CRM process just because he is empowered by the company and authorities to be in that position.'
Well it does, the captain does carries ultimate decision making, thats why he is paid the most. Otherwise when there is a mistake, an error or an emergency, everyone just looks at eachother and says, not my problem.
You have made the most ridiculous statements, in every walk of life, in every job, in every situation there has to a be a leader and a chain of command, otherwise, we have anarchy.
Secondly, you said this...
'The previous statements make it sound like the "glorified-bus-drivers" are beter than the "kitchen staff and waiters", just wait until the busdrivers scrape the tail on their Jumbo and don,t know it, the cabin crew in the rear hear it but keep quite on purpose to "just let them figure it out for themselves up-front, why should we tell him that he just messed-up, he just disrespects us in any case"
Well, if they didnt tell him their own lives would too be at risk through any possible damage. So you would put your own life and that of 400 odd pax in danger to spite your captain.
Should that be the case and you survived any incident/accident, you would be charged with neglegance and corporate murder (i think is the term) should anyone die.
You are the one giving your own profession a bad name with such utter rubbish.
Not extending just because you can and not considering making the flight work while remaining legal.
Well it does, the captain does carries ultimate decision making, thats why he is paid the most. Otherwise when there is a mistake, an error or an emergency, everyone just looks at eachother and says, not my problem.
You have made the most ridiculous statements, in every walk of life, in every job, in every situation there has to a be a leader and a chain of command, otherwise, we have anarchy.
Secondly, you said this...
'The previous statements make it sound like the "glorified-bus-drivers" are beter than the "kitchen staff and waiters", just wait until the busdrivers scrape the tail on their Jumbo and don,t know it, the cabin crew in the rear hear it but keep quite on purpose to "just let them figure it out for themselves up-front, why should we tell him that he just messed-up, he just disrespects us in any case"
Well, if they didnt tell him their own lives would too be at risk through any possible damage. So you would put your own life and that of 400 odd pax in danger to spite your captain.
Should that be the case and you survived any incident/accident, you would be charged with neglegance and corporate murder (i think is the term) should anyone die.
You are the one giving your own profession a bad name with such utter rubbish.
Not extending just because you can and not considering making the flight work while remaining legal.
well said