Mt. Kenya Crash 19 July 2003
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My sincere condolences to all concerned.
Everyone is so right to say this accident is a tragedy, it is.
Does anyone know why two obviously professional pilots would not know there is 17000 foot mountain on the route they were going to fly, or if they did, plan accordingly, or that they intended to land on an airstrip 3200 feet long at an elevation of 3300 feet where daily temperatures now are probably at least in the mid to high twenties in an aircraft such as a Metro with a good load in it, and expect to safely take off from the same airstrip?
Everyone is so right to say this accident is a tragedy, it is.
Does anyone know why two obviously professional pilots would not know there is 17000 foot mountain on the route they were going to fly, or if they did, plan accordingly, or that they intended to land on an airstrip 3200 feet long at an elevation of 3300 feet where daily temperatures now are probably at least in the mid to high twenties in an aircraft such as a Metro with a good load in it, and expect to safely take off from the same airstrip?
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Hi rat catcher be careful pointing out what to you and i is obvious as you will just be hounded and slagged as disrespectful by the opinion police on this board
many of my previous postings refer.
you managing ok without me now, its been 5 years.
get the door off i'm out on the 17/10
many of my previous postings refer.
you managing ok without me now, its been 5 years.
get the door off i'm out on the 17/10
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Captain Rat Catcher.Accidents do happen no matter how careful people are.
This was a a tragic accident as you say.
The flight was a drop off and empty out,so the Metro would have handled it easily.(Especially this one with it's Dash 10 motors).
The Captain flying the A/C had over a 1000 hrs on this particular machine and was very conciensious in all his planning as well as his IF skills.(I can vouch as I have a good few hours flying with him).
What happened we have no idea.
We may never know what happened.
I have no idea if you have flown in dark Africa,but many times the official let-down plate has the wrong co-ords on it or they have put the wrong town/city ICAO lettering down.
I have also had printing errors on my Jepp.
These things happen.
All I can say,and I am sure many will agree,let us wait until either more info comes to light or the official outcome is published before any of us have too much to say.
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Rat catcher,
I told you so.
see what i mean.
you and i have seen this type of thing so many times there ,and it is usually the same reason.nuff said
shame all the same but not a new thing in kenya.
goffel,
no disrespect intended but i believe rat catcher was refering to local knowledge being paramount not technical publications and experience gleaned elsewhere,and with his background he is more than qualified to make an educated assumption.particulary with ref to innapropiate aircraft types for the operation required.
sentiment is well and good but wont save the next unfortunate cfit in kenya unless the unpleasant is mentioned. this is a forum on the crash not abook of condolences.
thank god it was well handed down local knowledge that stopped me from hitting that rock over the years, and more than one of rats and mine colleagues have died on it.
blue skies
dicksy
as an aside this forum started on the r and n page as well and its another case of a lack of interest in this tradegy by the mainstream ppruners
unless one of thier own dies or has a baby they dont give a sh1t.(then its pages of eulogies and debate)
I think the going rate is 1 w.a.s.p pilot to 150 africans before there is parity of interest in an accident, even a cfit one .
maybe this critisism will provoke a reaction. probably about my attitude or various percieved chips for questioning their self appreciation society, that has hijacked pprune.
regards to ALL in africa.
I told you so.
see what i mean.
you and i have seen this type of thing so many times there ,and it is usually the same reason.nuff said
shame all the same but not a new thing in kenya.
goffel,
no disrespect intended but i believe rat catcher was refering to local knowledge being paramount not technical publications and experience gleaned elsewhere,and with his background he is more than qualified to make an educated assumption.particulary with ref to innapropiate aircraft types for the operation required.
sentiment is well and good but wont save the next unfortunate cfit in kenya unless the unpleasant is mentioned. this is a forum on the crash not abook of condolences.
thank god it was well handed down local knowledge that stopped me from hitting that rock over the years, and more than one of rats and mine colleagues have died on it.
blue skies
dicksy
as an aside this forum started on the r and n page as well and its another case of a lack of interest in this tradegy by the mainstream ppruners
unless one of thier own dies or has a baby they dont give a sh1t.(then its pages of eulogies and debate)
I think the going rate is 1 w.a.s.p pilot to 150 africans before there is parity of interest in an accident, even a cfit one .
maybe this critisism will provoke a reaction. probably about my attitude or various percieved chips for questioning their self appreciation society, that has hijacked pprune.
regards to ALL in africa.
Last edited by 4HolerPoler; 27th Jul 2003 at 06:22.
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Gofel
Please can you give some form of contacting you, the co-pilot may have been a friend, and would like very much to know if he was in fact on board.
Have only just read this thread and it would be greatly appreciated.
Cheers.
Please can you give some form of contacting you, the co-pilot may have been a friend, and would like very much to know if he was in fact on board.
Have only just read this thread and it would be greatly appreciated.
Cheers.
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Kenya aircrash pilots identified
Sunday Times Quote:
Killed: twelve members of a US family when their chartered aircraft crashed into Mt Kenya in heavy cloud.
The Brumley family were being flown by SA pilots Norman Pedler and Damien Frost,also killed in the crash.
Norman I am sure you are sitting on your stool reading your book without a worry in the world.
RIP 'O Norman'
Killed: twelve members of a US family when their chartered aircraft crashed into Mt Kenya in heavy cloud.
The Brumley family were being flown by SA pilots Norman Pedler and Damien Frost,also killed in the crash.
Norman I am sure you are sitting on your stool reading your book without a worry in the world.
RIP 'O Norman'
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Romour or not? this sounds like bull
just my opinion
Dubai - An Islamic website on Sunday carried a statement attributed to Osama bin Laden's al-Qaeda terror network claiming responsibility for a plane crash in Kenya that left 12 Americans and two South Africans dead.
The statement, the authenticity of which could not be verified, said the plane was hit "head on" with a ground-to-air SAM-7 missile.
It was apparently fired by followers of Mohammed Atef, the Egyptian national suspected of being Bin Laden's number two.
The statement said three CIA agents were on board the plane searching for Mujahedeen positions on the Kenyan border.
It also promised the Iraqi people the "arrival, very soon, of a present from Osama bin Laden to (US President George W) Bush and his band".
Kenyan officials said the light aircraft crashed into Mount Kenya amid thick clouds on July 19, and that the 12 Americans killed in the crash were members of the same extended family, including two grandparents.
just my opinion Dubai - An Islamic website on Sunday carried a statement attributed to Osama bin Laden's al-Qaeda terror network claiming responsibility for a plane crash in Kenya that left 12 Americans and two South Africans dead.
The statement, the authenticity of which could not be verified, said the plane was hit "head on" with a ground-to-air SAM-7 missile.
It was apparently fired by followers of Mohammed Atef, the Egyptian national suspected of being Bin Laden's number two.
The statement said three CIA agents were on board the plane searching for Mujahedeen positions on the Kenyan border.
It also promised the Iraqi people the "arrival, very soon, of a present from Osama bin Laden to (US President George W) Bush and his band".
Kenyan officials said the light aircraft crashed into Mount Kenya amid thick clouds on July 19, and that the 12 Americans killed in the crash were members of the same extended family, including two grandparents.
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The statement, the authenticity of which could not be verified, said the plane was hit "head on" with a ground-to-air SAM-7 missile.
'Head on'? B.S. - ghouls capitalizing on tragedy.
The SA-7s are ancient and designed as revenge weapons for hits on the exhaust. The SA-14 would have a better chance, since it was designed with a better nitrogen-cooled lead sulfide seeker. But the SA-14 is rarer and those SA-7s in terrorists' hands are getting older and less-reliable by the minute.
See:
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/row/sa-7.htm
'Head on'? B.S. - ghouls capitalizing on tragedy.
The SA-7s are ancient and designed as revenge weapons for hits on the exhaust. The SA-14 would have a better chance, since it was designed with a better nitrogen-cooled lead sulfide seeker. But the SA-14 is rarer and those SA-7s in terrorists' hands are getting older and less-reliable by the minute.
See:
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/row/sa-7.htm
Go well my friend!!!!!!
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Goffel, I have flown 15+ years in "dark Africa"
No judgements being made, no disrespect to those that cannot answer for themselves, just please let anyone else doing flights such as this ask the local guys, they are friendly, knowledgable and only too glad to help!
I know for a fact that one of our guys was happily shown around the machine by the crew but they were not forthcoming with their destination, and not being the nosey type, the conversation ended there.
Dicksy
Ya man but it's the struggle you know!
Is it only 5 years since you misread your last take off clearance
See you at boogie time
No judgements being made, no disrespect to those that cannot answer for themselves, just please let anyone else doing flights such as this ask the local guys, they are friendly, knowledgable and only too glad to help!
I know for a fact that one of our guys was happily shown around the machine by the crew but they were not forthcoming with their destination, and not being the nosey type, the conversation ended there.
Dicksy
Ya man but it's the struggle you know!Is it only 5 years since you misread your last take off clearance
See you at boogie time
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It is indeed a sad state of affairs when something like this happens. A tragedy like this affects everyone in aviation, and one can only but wonder why, what went wrong, what did the pilots do, what were they thinking, etc.
Night stopped in Nairobi on Saturday night, and spoke to a few people there. Straight out opinions point straight to pilot error.
Departed, planned fot FL 150, and hit the mountain 30 meters from the crest at 230 knots at FL150. The rest is history. If the plane was 100 feet higher, it would have "scraped" across.
Sad, very sad indeed. Condolences to all concerned. A tragedy like this gives us all a serious reality check. Many unanswered questions etc. Bottom line is, be careful out there. Plan properly, consult with the old hands around, check & double check. what more can I say guys???
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Gunship,
Can you give me the path to insert pictures on message.
Can you give me the path to insert pictures on message.
Then you just paste your web link with IMG code ... understand ?
RIP Damien and Norman. All concerned are in my prayers ... do you get it any sadder ... a WHOLE family (generation) whiped out. Eischh
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Tragedy
My condolences to the victims of this crash. It seems the pilots were not properly prepared for the trip & had little knowledge of where they were going eg lack of airspace knowledge into Nairobi etc. On ground the pax were advised to take a local charter flight to their destination but because of safety fears chose to stay with their SA aircraft. The Metro was given FL150 'subject to own terrain clearance' as the filed route lay right through the mountain (one of only two in this area!) A local pilot spotted the potential danger & tried to warn the Metro - but it seems his advice was ignored.
The destination airstrip was also too short for a landing - had one been tried it probably would have resulted in a crash - not with total loss of life, but with some injuries. This airstrip is tight for a KingAir let alone a ground hog like a Metro.
This is an accident that shouldn't have happened. Its nothing to do with safety of Kenyan aviation & everything to do with being properly prepared for what you're heading into. Its all too sad.
The destination airstrip was also too short for a landing - had one been tried it probably would have resulted in a crash - not with total loss of life, but with some injuries. This airstrip is tight for a KingAir let alone a ground hog like a Metro.
This is an accident that shouldn't have happened. Its nothing to do with safety of Kenyan aviation & everything to do with being properly prepared for what you're heading into. Its all too sad.
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Hey Foxcotte
I'm just helluva suprised at the speed with which you managed to come to all of those conclusions! You must be a farging aviation genius? Why don't you sell your services to the AAIB? It usually takes them at least a year to get the accident facts straight!
PS: May we never read your names in the headlines!
PS: May we never read your names in the headlines!
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Reading the circumstances of this accident brings back memories of a very similar accident which killed a good friend of mine, and well known to many on this forum, Herman Potgeiter.
From what I remember they were in a PC12 somewhere in that area and hit a mountain in the cloud.
From what I remember they were in a PC12 somewhere in that area and hit a mountain in the cloud.
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Capt 126.9.
Foxcotte might have some definite truth's in his explanation.
Maybe it is time for some of us to actually speak out about what we know (myself included) and not hide behind sentiments.
Yes there are some guys that have plenty hours of flying A to B in a/c in and out of tar strips and the odd gravel strip,yet actually have no experience of short,gravel strips in hot and high conditions,especially in the deepest of dark Africa.
But in this case,with a mountain in the flight path at FL150,who know's.
Hopefully we all learn by this.I know I can.
Foxcotte might have some definite truth's in his explanation.
Maybe it is time for some of us to actually speak out about what we know (myself included) and not hide behind sentiments.
Yes there are some guys that have plenty hours of flying A to B in a/c in and out of tar strips and the odd gravel strip,yet actually have no experience of short,gravel strips in hot and high conditions,especially in the deepest of dark Africa.
But in this case,with a mountain in the flight path at FL150,who know's.
Hopefully we all learn by this.I know I can.
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Kenyan crash
Quite a response!
Far less to do with my own personal conclusions than to do with what was actually seen & heard with regard to the Metro and its crew.
On initial arrival & departure from Wilson Airport, the Metro did not appear to be familiar with local arrival/departure procedures as seen/heard by other local traffic in the area at the time. The tour agent handling the Kenya section of the trip has written a letter to the US State Department about the incident and repercussions, in it mentioning his attempt to dissuade the pax from using the Metro for the Samburu leg of the flight. The ATC clearance was heard by several other aircraft also departing from Wilson the same day, and lastly the conversation with the local pilot attempting to warn of the dangers of the intended flight path was heard on the general chat frequency by at least 4 other aircraft in the area.
My personal opinion relates to the hypothetical result of the Metro attempting to land at Samburu, and comes from my personal knowledge that this airstrip is a STOL bush one. Light KingAirs and loaded C310s manage it with experienced pilots, and while I admit to not knowing that much about the Metro's performance and capabilities, I still stand by the opinion that it was not a suitable aircraft for this airstrip.
As for offering my services to the ongoing investigation - all the above is general knowledge in the small Kenya aviation community and I am sure they will be able to reach their own conclusions in due course.
Sadly as has been pointed out this accident is not the first such obliteration into a hillside in Kenya (viz a viz the Pilatus that piled into the Ngong Hills outside of Nairobi a few years ago) but with commonsense and proper planning, I sincerely hope it will be the last.
Far less to do with my own personal conclusions than to do with what was actually seen & heard with regard to the Metro and its crew.
On initial arrival & departure from Wilson Airport, the Metro did not appear to be familiar with local arrival/departure procedures as seen/heard by other local traffic in the area at the time. The tour agent handling the Kenya section of the trip has written a letter to the US State Department about the incident and repercussions, in it mentioning his attempt to dissuade the pax from using the Metro for the Samburu leg of the flight. The ATC clearance was heard by several other aircraft also departing from Wilson the same day, and lastly the conversation with the local pilot attempting to warn of the dangers of the intended flight path was heard on the general chat frequency by at least 4 other aircraft in the area.
My personal opinion relates to the hypothetical result of the Metro attempting to land at Samburu, and comes from my personal knowledge that this airstrip is a STOL bush one. Light KingAirs and loaded C310s manage it with experienced pilots, and while I admit to not knowing that much about the Metro's performance and capabilities, I still stand by the opinion that it was not a suitable aircraft for this airstrip.
As for offering my services to the ongoing investigation - all the above is general knowledge in the small Kenya aviation community and I am sure they will be able to reach their own conclusions in due course.
Sadly as has been pointed out this accident is not the first such obliteration into a hillside in Kenya (viz a viz the Pilatus that piled into the Ngong Hills outside of Nairobi a few years ago) but with commonsense and proper planning, I sincerely hope it will be the last.
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Foxcotte, I share with you your thoughts. The Board Commander on the Metro knew zip about the place he was going to, and only had charts and other useless info to go by. Furthermore, he was unfamiliar with the area. We have all flown that area extensively, and I can distinctly remember how many times I got very useful information from local lads, either at the Aero club, or just in the hangars around Wilson. Ask, and you will be told.
Its indeed a sad state of affairs, as I previously posted. The commander flight planned for FL150, and hit the mountain. End of story. A big mistake, but also a mistake that costed lives.
In spite of the fact that this is a rumour network, people tend to air their opinions, and everyone is entitled to an opinion. Opinions may mean nothing to some, and a lot to others. It all depends how one interprets the opinions. This accident was indeed a very sad story, and there will be many questions, (some unanswered) but we need to apply our minds to this, and learn from it. One upmanship is one thing, boldness is another. We all have the same interest at heart, and that is to be good aviators, to keep ourselves and our pax safe, and to learn from the mistakes of others.
Safe flying out there fella's!
Its indeed a sad state of affairs, as I previously posted. The commander flight planned for FL150, and hit the mountain. End of story. A big mistake, but also a mistake that costed lives.
In spite of the fact that this is a rumour network, people tend to air their opinions, and everyone is entitled to an opinion. Opinions may mean nothing to some, and a lot to others. It all depends how one interprets the opinions. This accident was indeed a very sad story, and there will be many questions, (some unanswered) but we need to apply our minds to this, and learn from it. One upmanship is one thing, boldness is another. We all have the same interest at heart, and that is to be good aviators, to keep ourselves and our pax safe, and to learn from the mistakes of others.
Safe flying out there fella's!
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Foxcotte, I am agreeing with you on all the above, but as you say, there's no need to reply to 126.9 and say more that has been said. It is a sad accident but like most of the CFIT in the area could have been so much avoided. I pray for the crew, but they were very ill-prepared for the leg HKNW to Samburu.
We are a very small community here in East Africa and pilots from outside really need to discuss and gather as much info as they can while transiting by Wilson or elsewhere.
We are a very small community here in East Africa and pilots from outside really need to discuss and gather as much info as they can while transiting by Wilson or elsewhere.
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If it was nbi sam then end of discussion. Werent the first and wont be the last regrettably.
The irony is that the safest way past the hill is to track the VOK 611 (adf) 030 qdr all the way thru the mil zone and at 11 or above you WILL miss the hill.new fangled thingies be dammed.
As for a metro into sam south, or north for that matter, well it speaks for itself.
shame
The irony is that the safest way past the hill is to track the VOK 611 (adf) 030 qdr all the way thru the mil zone and at 11 or above you WILL miss the hill.new fangled thingies be dammed.
As for a metro into sam south, or north for that matter, well it speaks for itself.
shame