What happens if SAA goes
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What happens if SAA goes
I thought I might start a new fresh thread on this one as on the other ones it is only pure salary envy that is driving the thread.
If SAA goes away and 600+ pilots hit the market, what are the rest of the pilots going to get paid...market forces would dictate that the salary will be lowered in the industry to meet the oversupply.
Someone please update me but is Mango not the SAA low cost carrier? What happens to them if SAA goes under. What about SAX? Does SAA still own part of Sax.
Just look at Australia when Ansett when under , it pulled a whole heap of other airlines with it.
If SAA goes away and 600+ pilots hit the market, what are the rest of the pilots going to get paid...market forces would dictate that the salary will be lowered in the industry to meet the oversupply.
Someone please update me but is Mango not the SAA low cost carrier? What happens to them if SAA goes under. What about SAX? Does SAA still own part of Sax.
Just look at Australia when Ansett when under , it pulled a whole heap of other airlines with it.
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I am type rated on all those machines(and many more) and to re-activate will be quick and easy,so I will be off to the smaller fields to go and "pay my bills"! That is the scary reality of any airline closing down !!
You will do the same !!
You will do the same !!
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I agree. Most if not all the guys/gals flying for SAA have thousands of hours on everything. Including instructional hours. Apart from flooding the local market, the international market will also suddenly have 800+ Airbus and Boeing rated pilots.
So then, I'm sure all the salary whingers on the other forum will be happy ?
Pilots are their own worst enemies....who needs managers to abuse us.
So then, I'm sure all the salary whingers on the other forum will be happy ?
Pilots are their own worst enemies....who needs managers to abuse us.
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Pilots are there own worst enemies.......
Very sad , BUT 100 % spot on !! I have seen it when a recession"passes" through(early 1990's),man it's freightning,Then you will get the opposite of the current salary talk doinging it's rounds!!
I don't wish any pilot-airline hardship,because it filters right through to each and everyone trying to make a living "driving aeroplanes"around.
Very sad , BUT 100 % spot on !! I have seen it when a recession"passes" through(early 1990's),man it's freightning,Then you will get the opposite of the current salary talk doinging it's rounds!!
I don't wish any pilot-airline hardship,because it filters right through to each and everyone trying to make a living "driving aeroplanes"around.
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Its a funny industry. One only has to read all the other forums on this site. Pilots whinge about everything, Yet we are actually doing the best job on the planet.
You don't find a rumour network for doctors, lawyers or even for the guys that really should bitch and moan...South African Police.
It seems aviation is is frought with prophets of doom, general jealousy and a tinge of backstabbing. Sad indeed.
You don't find a rumour network for doctors, lawyers or even for the guys that really should bitch and moan...South African Police.
It seems aviation is is frought with prophets of doom, general jealousy and a tinge of backstabbing. Sad indeed.
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JetNut,
I have seen boys and girls floating around with haevy metal on there licenses flying anything.......yes a C150 on instruction aswell, not a pretty sight !!
I have seen boys and girls floating around with haevy metal on there licenses flying anything.......yes a C150 on instruction aswell, not a pretty sight !!
Last edited by bianchi; 10th Jul 2007 at 12:04.
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What about SAX? Does SAA still own part of Sax.
And for the Bashers, SAX is on the brink of recording its 3rd year of Straight Profit.
Judging by the "Green MD80's" six monthly results, SAX's profit could possibly (for the 2nd year in a row), be more than that of the Dot.com
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Once again I think the point is missed. I don’t think anyone wants to see S.A.A. closed down, and realistically we all know that S.A.A. will never close down. The way I read the thread is the frustration by many that the non – government funded company’s have to run very lean and super efficient to grow their organizations, while unfortunately the attitude of (a very few only) some at the national carrier is “we deserve it”.
How about we reverse the roles and the show sympathy to the guys who are just as capable, but did not had the chance for some reason to join S.A.A. Show them some support.
My advice to the non national carrier guys is, yes, you guys work hard for what you’ve got, but remember, as long as the government appoint the C.E.O. of S.A.A., and as long as the government tell S.A.A. what routes to fly for what ever political reason, and as long as the government want to dictate to S.A.A., the government must take full responsibility for the balance sheet.
If any of my friends / fellow aviators in S.A.A. can get a slice of the cake for having to put up with it, good for you , good on SAAPA.
Yes, I am anti what the government is doing to S.A.A., but I will never blame my fellow aviators for it. So until the government allow S.A.A. to run itself we should aim our anger at the incompetence, and we know where that lies. Not with our friends who sat next to us in a Comm. / ATP exam.
How about we reverse the roles and the show sympathy to the guys who are just as capable, but did not had the chance for some reason to join S.A.A. Show them some support.
My advice to the non national carrier guys is, yes, you guys work hard for what you’ve got, but remember, as long as the government appoint the C.E.O. of S.A.A., and as long as the government tell S.A.A. what routes to fly for what ever political reason, and as long as the government want to dictate to S.A.A., the government must take full responsibility for the balance sheet.
If any of my friends / fellow aviators in S.A.A. can get a slice of the cake for having to put up with it, good for you , good on SAAPA.
Yes, I am anti what the government is doing to S.A.A., but I will never blame my fellow aviators for it. So until the government allow S.A.A. to run itself we should aim our anger at the incompetence, and we know where that lies. Not with our friends who sat next to us in a Comm. / ATP exam.
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Beta Light , I like your attitude. SAA does need to change it's form. Personally as someone that works on the other side of the world , I do not think that the SAA salary is excessive for the line of operation. I do think that it is too clumsy as an organization and it does need major restructuring especially from a ground and cabin crew prospective. With regards to the pilots, no pilots not flying = no revenue.
I also think that if the salary gets reduced then the pilots will end up going to better paying jobs, which will cost the airline in training resources and then defeat the cost cutting exercise.
With regards to SAX being 100% Transnet owned I thought SAA was 100% Transnet owned too...is this still the case?
I also think that if the salary gets reduced then the pilots will end up going to better paying jobs, which will cost the airline in training resources and then defeat the cost cutting exercise.
With regards to SAX being 100% Transnet owned I thought SAA was 100% Transnet owned too...is this still the case?
Paxing All Over The World
Of course SAA is not going to close, for the reasons everyone knows and stated above. WHat will happen is that SAA will continue to change T&Cs as it slowly catches up with the rest of the world.
Even if SAA were to close - then a MkII would appear in the form of someone buying out the operation. Yes, many things would change but not all of the jobs would go. Look at SABENA/SN and Swiss Air/SWISS to see what happens under those circumstances.
Even if SAA were to close - then a MkII would appear in the form of someone buying out the operation. Yes, many things would change but not all of the jobs would go. Look at SABENA/SN and Swiss Air/SWISS to see what happens under those circumstances.
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SAX? It was widly publisized last year that SAX would be sold by the end of the year (2006). If SAX has been profitable for the last 3 years where are the other airlines lining up to purchase it?
Cause nobody will sell a profitable business with a sound future for next-to-nothing, now would they?
Why do you think a certain Dot.com Company showed "interest", but for no other reason than to try and get a peak at the books, strategies and business models.
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So is it right to say that if SAA had to vanish tomorrow SAX would be directly linked to it and probable suffer the same fate...look at what happened in Australia after the Ansett collapse
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I try and restrain myself from getting involved in these threads but sometimes I just can't resist.......
I'm with Paxboy on this.......SAA could very well be a candidate for the Swiss Air / Sabena (aka bankruptcy) restructuring that occurred a few years back.
It just gets to me when I hear people talking about how they want SAA to be profitable blah blah blah, given the amount of supposed effort that has been put in over the years why isn't the airline profitable....just how much bailing out do they need???
It is a down right disgraceful the amount of taxpayers money going into it, with seemingly no guaranteed rates of return.......just like Comair or any other private company could get away with that - as if!!! They'd have to go to their investors, present a sound finanical case or go to the markets. A level playing field this is not.
As far as SAX is concerned they seem to be doing well from what we hear. Obviously it is difficult to get figures as Transnet tend to bundle everything together when they report. It is good to hear that SAX are making money - for the last 3 years so we're told, however does that mean for the first 10 years they ran at a loss? Be interesting to know whether in the 13 years of SAX ops they have cumulatively made a profit or a loss......I'd love to know.....but what I do know is that any privately owned business can't sustain years of losses and remain in business.
I'm with Paxboy on this.......SAA could very well be a candidate for the Swiss Air / Sabena (aka bankruptcy) restructuring that occurred a few years back.
It just gets to me when I hear people talking about how they want SAA to be profitable blah blah blah, given the amount of supposed effort that has been put in over the years why isn't the airline profitable....just how much bailing out do they need???
It is a down right disgraceful the amount of taxpayers money going into it, with seemingly no guaranteed rates of return.......just like Comair or any other private company could get away with that - as if!!! They'd have to go to their investors, present a sound finanical case or go to the markets. A level playing field this is not.
As far as SAX is concerned they seem to be doing well from what we hear. Obviously it is difficult to get figures as Transnet tend to bundle everything together when they report. It is good to hear that SAX are making money - for the last 3 years so we're told, however does that mean for the first 10 years they ran at a loss? Be interesting to know whether in the 13 years of SAX ops they have cumulatively made a profit or a loss......I'd love to know.....but what I do know is that any privately owned business can't sustain years of losses and remain in business.
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With regards to SAX being 100% Transnet owned I thought SAA was 100% Transnet owned too...is this still the case?
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SAX
Sorry Guys
SAX is also on the verge of bankrupcy. VERY good story in the Business Day a few weeks back. Will try find it. Basically says SAX also uses some very 'interesting' accounting practice. Makes profit, but always needs R200mill from me, the tax payer.
SAX own auditors not sure it has the funds to meet its up coming commitments. Zero mantainance reserves. Also owes Transnet a fortune, like a BILLION rands.
But back to the topic, if SAA was broken up, the routes would become be up for grabs, wouldn't be too long before everybody else was operating international. The flying wouldn't stop, just wouldn't cost me money.
Short term pain for long term gain. Lets get on with it, sooner the better.
SAX is also on the verge of bankrupcy. VERY good story in the Business Day a few weeks back. Will try find it. Basically says SAX also uses some very 'interesting' accounting practice. Makes profit, but always needs R200mill from me, the tax payer.
SAX own auditors not sure it has the funds to meet its up coming commitments. Zero mantainance reserves. Also owes Transnet a fortune, like a BILLION rands.
But back to the topic, if SAA was broken up, the routes would become be up for grabs, wouldn't be too long before everybody else was operating international. The flying wouldn't stop, just wouldn't cost me money.
Short term pain for long term gain. Lets get on with it, sooner the better.
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Blah blah blah, so SAA is costing me money too but do you think it's going to change by constantly bleating about it on these forums? No never! Realise that this is the way it is and will be for the forseable future. If it wasn't SAA, that "WE" were paying for I'm sure there would be something else, that we would be contributing too, it's just one of those things living in a third world environment in which we find ourselves in. The wood I'm afraid will never be seen from the trees!!!
So carry on bleating fellas and follow each other around like sheep.....berr berrrr!!!!!
So carry on bleating fellas and follow each other around like sheep.....berr berrrr!!!!!
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SAX is also on the verge of bankrupcy. VERY good story in the Business Day a few weeks back. Will try find it. Basically says SAX also uses some very 'interesting' accounting practice. Makes profit, but always needs R200mill from me, the tax payer.
SAX own auditors not sure it has the funds to meet its up coming commitments. Zero mantainance reserves. Also owes Transnet a fortune, like a BILLION rands.
SAX own auditors not sure it has the funds to meet its up coming commitments. Zero mantainance reserves. Also owes Transnet a fortune, like a BILLION rands.
Similar to the Sunday Times front page which yells about the SAA Plan quoted to save R2.7 bn. Why then (if the reporters had the scoop), do they only refer to R598 mil woth of savings?
I know why - because those are the "touchy" ones that will sell a few Newspapers again - hey, even I bought one.
A lot of accusations/assumptions in your post there Avi8tor.
Am I not mistaken that only a week or two ago RF said: Go ahead, strike if you like - I'll close the "Airline" and lose my 1 house and 1 car. So what?
Where is the liquidity there then...?
Pun over!
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[QUOTE]SAX is also on the verge of bankrupcy. VERY good story in the Business Day a few weeks back. Will try find it. Basically says SAX also uses some very 'interesting' accounting practice. Makes profit, but always needs R200mill from me, the tax payer.
SAX own auditors not sure it has the funds to meet its up coming commitments. Zero mantainance reserves. Also owes Transnet a fortune, like a BILLION rands.
But back to the topic, if SAA was broken up, the routes would become be up for grabs, wouldn't be too long before everybody else was operating international. The flying wouldn't stop, just wouldn't cost me money.
Short term pain for long term gain. Lets get on with it, sooner the better.QUOTE]
There was a time in the late 90's when SAX went through a rocky patch but that’s well behind them now and I’ve no doubt they will go from strength to strength.
If SAA was not around, the only benefactors would be the international airlines flying into South Africa, the local airlines, trying to compete on long-haul routes, would be killed stone dead in no time at all- this would have a knock on effect in the local market. The long haul market is hugely capital intensive and very competitive, an area where networks play a very important role. Sorry but facts are facts. SAA will come out of this- the government will not let it slip…and then there is the matter of 2010 coming….
SAX own auditors not sure it has the funds to meet its up coming commitments. Zero mantainance reserves. Also owes Transnet a fortune, like a BILLION rands.
But back to the topic, if SAA was broken up, the routes would become be up for grabs, wouldn't be too long before everybody else was operating international. The flying wouldn't stop, just wouldn't cost me money.
Short term pain for long term gain. Lets get on with it, sooner the better.QUOTE]
There was a time in the late 90's when SAX went through a rocky patch but that’s well behind them now and I’ve no doubt they will go from strength to strength.
If SAA was not around, the only benefactors would be the international airlines flying into South Africa, the local airlines, trying to compete on long-haul routes, would be killed stone dead in no time at all- this would have a knock on effect in the local market. The long haul market is hugely capital intensive and very competitive, an area where networks play a very important role. Sorry but facts are facts. SAA will come out of this- the government will not let it slip…and then there is the matter of 2010 coming….
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Let me throw another stone then...
If SAA goes which of the local airlines will be able to take up the vacum? Comair with it's new order of 30 year old 737?
Nationwide with it 30 year old fleet?
Who has the 100 million plus for new equipment, you try to compete price wise against an airline operating a new 777ER or A330. I'm sorry to say but the flying will not continue, the Asian and middle eastern airlines will take the international cake...and they will eat it too!!!
If SAA goes which of the local airlines will be able to take up the vacum? Comair with it's new order of 30 year old 737?
Nationwide with it 30 year old fleet?
Who has the 100 million plus for new equipment, you try to compete price wise against an airline operating a new 777ER or A330. I'm sorry to say but the flying will not continue, the Asian and middle eastern airlines will take the international cake...and they will eat it too!!!