All recruitment at SAA on hold (The world according to JetNut thread)
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So for the same money I can fly Comair / Nationwide AND get a meal, magazine etc.
In fact, since the 17th January 2007 you can even get a Sandwich on a Nationwide Economy Class ticket - Just pass your R20 to the Flight Attendant and enjoy your Sandwich.
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Thank you for helping me there Q4NVS. Last time I flew Nationwide, about 5 years ago, they served very good meals. So how would Nationwide price compare?
I see the spin doctors got to you Hi – Flyer....
I guess no one as blind as he who don’t want to see…..
I see the spin doctors got to you Hi – Flyer....
I guess no one as blind as he who don’t want to see…..
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Like most of the proud North American airlines that have gone "under", we can blame SAAPA with their extravagant pay demands for a lot of SAA's problems!!! Their attitude has always been " PROBLEMS, WHAT PROBLEMS - JUST INCREASE MY FAT SALARY AND THE PROBLEMS WILL GO AWAY!!"
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Sadly
Sadly 'the increase my fat salary' attitude is not only a pilot problem at SAA. Tend to think that its a top to bottom problem.
Run it like a business!!!!
Run it like a business!!!!
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777Sandman, pray tell, then why did you join Emirates? Definitely not for the money right , (oh, yes, I forgot. You coudn't get into SAA because of affirmative action).
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JETNUT sounds like this is a case of I got in you didnt - nananananaaaa
does this mean you are one of those walk on water arrangant types?
777sandman probably saw the light looong before you did. I wonder who is more nervouse about keeping his job right now.
does this mean you are one of those walk on water arrangant types?
777sandman probably saw the light looong before you did. I wonder who is more nervouse about keeping his job right now.
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what a waist of space this thread has now become, you guys sound like 5 year olds!!! You should all grow up, then you might realize that SA aviation is on the down hill, where it is booming all over the world, in SA the conditions are getting worst from one airline to the other. With the current shortage of crews world wide you should all be getting fat salaries not moaning about SAA's pay package. Frankly at the rate of pay at Nation wide, there are cabin crew at other airlines that get paid more, there are airlines in 3rd world airlines that are flying better equipment. Brand new airports in Asia that are 10 times bigger than JNB with more growth potential.
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Agree on all points Frogman, and Jetnut, before going of at 777 Sandman, you did an awful lot of enquiry into QR on a previous thread. Made it no secret that you are seriously considering the option! So why the loyalty now? Maybe got knocked backed??
Tongue in cheek:
Asian eagle I agree “JETNUT sounds like this is a case of I got in you didnt – nananananaaaa” or Jetnut is female, and should wait a couple of days before posting ( would explain why she had a couple of mood swings while posting within a couple of minutes on various threads, and also why she don’t see Affirmative Action as a stumbling block )
Tongue in cheek:
Asian eagle I agree “JETNUT sounds like this is a case of I got in you didnt – nananananaaaa” or Jetnut is female, and should wait a couple of days before posting ( would explain why she had a couple of mood swings while posting within a couple of minutes on various threads, and also why she don’t see Affirmative Action as a stumbling block )
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ByAirMail...yes I've been offered many jobs all over the world, and everytime I research it further it only makes me appreciate the state of affairs we as pilots enjoy in South Africa. At the end of the day we have basic human needs and one can't only consider flying hi-tech machinery in the equation, look at the external environment as well.
Thats why it tends to irritate me when I read postings by narrow minded individuals who have no clue about the bigger picture, living their simple lives in a tiny cocoon; yet, have the audacity to attempt an opinion on matters far beyond their grasp.
If you don't like being in a certain environment/situation/country, then do something about it, remove yourself from the negativity (instead of whinging/bitching/moaning)...internal locus of control.
What happens to pilots or any other employee for that matter, in countries with inferior labour laws, makes even flying a 172 in the Kruger National park seem attractive.... (and I'm not saying that because its the middle of the month either!)
Thats why it tends to irritate me when I read postings by narrow minded individuals who have no clue about the bigger picture, living their simple lives in a tiny cocoon; yet, have the audacity to attempt an opinion on matters far beyond their grasp.
If you don't like being in a certain environment/situation/country, then do something about it, remove yourself from the negativity (instead of whinging/bitching/moaning)...internal locus of control.
What happens to pilots or any other employee for that matter, in countries with inferior labour laws, makes even flying a 172 in the Kruger National park seem attractive.... (and I'm not saying that because its the middle of the month either!)
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Hey J-Nut,
Not normally one to get involved, but being totally exasperated by your utter ignoramousness, I feel compelled to respond.
Let's disect your argument: "no clue about the bigger picture - living in a cocoon", or words to that effect. Would that be the same cocoon that shields you from horrific crime statistics, rampant HIV rates, corruption on a biblical scale, gross public mismanagement, political uncertainty (or political inevitability) and socialist levels of taxation (but without the social benefits)? I hope I'm not being too audacious...
You might be enjoying your cushy existance at present, but believe me, when the powers-that-be are through with you (after an expensive consultation), there is going to be much grinding of teeth and eroding of terms and conditions. You are going to give and they are going to take - it is the only hope for SAA's survival. And if you think for an instant that our flowery constitution and "labour laws" are going to protect you, you in in for a very rude awakening.
You boys are in dire straits - best you get used to working for a living. I suppose its hard to read the writing on the wall when your back is up against it...
Not normally one to get involved, but being totally exasperated by your utter ignoramousness, I feel compelled to respond.
Let's disect your argument: "no clue about the bigger picture - living in a cocoon", or words to that effect. Would that be the same cocoon that shields you from horrific crime statistics, rampant HIV rates, corruption on a biblical scale, gross public mismanagement, political uncertainty (or political inevitability) and socialist levels of taxation (but without the social benefits)? I hope I'm not being too audacious...
You might be enjoying your cushy existance at present, but believe me, when the powers-that-be are through with you (after an expensive consultation), there is going to be much grinding of teeth and eroding of terms and conditions. You are going to give and they are going to take - it is the only hope for SAA's survival. And if you think for an instant that our flowery constitution and "labour laws" are going to protect you, you in in for a very rude awakening.
You boys are in dire straits - best you get used to working for a living. I suppose its hard to read the writing on the wall when your back is up against it...
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Khaya's pay
Was reading News24 this morning: http://www.news24.com/News24/South_A...091514,00.html
And that for a loss-making airline! Ouch! 
Second is Khaya Nqulu of South African Airways with R6 850 000 which includes a bonus of R1.85m.
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Toobadtoosad, Can you please enlighten me on which field SAA comes in hands down with EK, and CX...time to command? Salary package? 3 crew across the pond...please let me know what you are talking about...maybe you are referring to the stuff that goes missing from your flight bag while you are having your rest.
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Frogman, it shows how sad your life is when time to command and money is all that drives you.
Time to command is only important when you want to leave your current carrier, not when you are happy with where you are. Fact is, SAAPA would prefer to have pilots leaving SAA for other airlines, but these days nobody is leaving!! Why?? Because our pay is excellent, our benefits are excellent, we fly with pilots we can relate to and socialise with and most of all, we live in South Africa, a country we love, even with all the crime and other BS.
If you are happy working for Arabs or Chinese then good for you, but I am not. Quality of life is far more important to me than dragging my family off to a desert because of an early command and big bucks. And speaking of big bucks, I just went on holiday with some ex-SAA Emirates Captains and, with your 34% inflation, I don't quite qualify your income as big bucks, as they admitted!!
Fact is, when you take leave you bugger off to a country other than your domicile.............when we take leave we either stay home or visit other parts of the country we live in. So who has the screwed up priorities???
Answer this: Are you going to retire where you currently work or in another country? Because I am already living my retirement here right in good 'ol SA!!!
Time to command is only important when you want to leave your current carrier, not when you are happy with where you are. Fact is, SAAPA would prefer to have pilots leaving SAA for other airlines, but these days nobody is leaving!! Why?? Because our pay is excellent, our benefits are excellent, we fly with pilots we can relate to and socialise with and most of all, we live in South Africa, a country we love, even with all the crime and other BS.
If you are happy working for Arabs or Chinese then good for you, but I am not. Quality of life is far more important to me than dragging my family off to a desert because of an early command and big bucks. And speaking of big bucks, I just went on holiday with some ex-SAA Emirates Captains and, with your 34% inflation, I don't quite qualify your income as big bucks, as they admitted!!
Fact is, when you take leave you bugger off to a country other than your domicile.............when we take leave we either stay home or visit other parts of the country we live in. So who has the screwed up priorities???
Answer this: Are you going to retire where you currently work or in another country? Because I am already living my retirement here right in good 'ol SA!!!
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Too Bad,
It's obvious that you are very content at SAA and that's great - why leave for something inferior?
It might be worth noting however, that other airlines with extremely strong union and legislative protection such as United, Delta, American, Northwest, US Airways, Alitalia and Swiss either took deep paycuts or lost massive amounts of pension money - not to mention jobcuts as well. Ask a Quantas F/O how long it takes to upgrade these days and you'll find the subject changing very quickly.
Point is, if it can happen to these carriers, what makes SAA immune to cutbacks?
We've also all heard that old chesnut about how productive SAA flight ops is when justifying T&C's, but that's a bit like saying you were only a waiter on the Titanic and that you cannot be held responsible for hitting the iceberg. True. But that doesn't mean you're not going down with the ship...
It's obvious that you are very content at SAA and that's great - why leave for something inferior?
It might be worth noting however, that other airlines with extremely strong union and legislative protection such as United, Delta, American, Northwest, US Airways, Alitalia and Swiss either took deep paycuts or lost massive amounts of pension money - not to mention jobcuts as well. Ask a Quantas F/O how long it takes to upgrade these days and you'll find the subject changing very quickly.
Point is, if it can happen to these carriers, what makes SAA immune to cutbacks?
We've also all heard that old chesnut about how productive SAA flight ops is when justifying T&C's, but that's a bit like saying you were only a waiter on the Titanic and that you cannot be held responsible for hitting the iceberg. True. But that doesn't mean you're not going down with the ship...
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Too Bad... before you shoot such a broad statement I think you should stop and think that not everyone sees SA through the same rose glasses. To make some facts straight, I do live where I want to retire...Australia! At 3% inflation , I'm still earning the bucks and plus I can go on holiday anywhere in Australia and not worry if my BM is going to get stolen...So yes my quality of life is better than you think, so please do not make a statement saying that SAA is the best...that is the reason why the rest of the non SAA pilots hate you guys...you come across as being very arrogant and ignorant on the other pilots conditions.
If you are happy at SAA thats great, but trust me SAA is not the best job out there by any means of the imagination, and SA is most definatly not in the top places to live!
If you are happy at SAA thats great, but trust me SAA is not the best job out there by any means of the imagination, and SA is most definatly not in the top places to live!
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To all the cynics, prophets of doom, individuals with perpetual chips on their shoulders and not forgetting frogman and crew.....
I reject your reality and substitute it for my own
I reject your reality and substitute it for my own
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A lesson in perception:
Perceptions are created from beliefs. Beliefs are formed throughout a person's life based on their education, background, and knowledge, steered by their personality traits. For example, if people in a dark room are looking at a round object lit by a beam of light, some see only a crescent, others a half-moon, some only darkness, whilst some may even see the full lit object.
When you understand the fact that the reality of life is percieved by each person differently, it's easy to think, or free your mind to accept other points of view without frustrating yourself or sounding like an utter moron.
The basic bulding blocks of perception, belief; can be changed/updated/evolved, only by education, coupled with a desire to change. That's probably why many people outside of South Africa don't understand how people with such strong cultural diversity can actually survive so successfully. The one's who have created barriers and thrive on a resistance to change will eventually leave (or have left, in a crazed effort to replicate their past). By latching on to negativity (crime, HIV, etc.), these people subconsciously create reasons to substantiate and verify their false perceptions of reality, (although, yes I agree that these are very real problems in SA, but then if we didn't have these issues, we'd be living in a Utopia). These people eventually become satisfied with the conclusions they draw, only by rejecting alternative sources of information.
History has proved that skewed realities created by perceptions based on faulty beliefs can be detrimental (slavery, holocaust, apartheid, etc, etc.)
The defence rests, your honour.
Perceptions are created from beliefs. Beliefs are formed throughout a person's life based on their education, background, and knowledge, steered by their personality traits. For example, if people in a dark room are looking at a round object lit by a beam of light, some see only a crescent, others a half-moon, some only darkness, whilst some may even see the full lit object.
When you understand the fact that the reality of life is percieved by each person differently, it's easy to think, or free your mind to accept other points of view without frustrating yourself or sounding like an utter moron.
The basic bulding blocks of perception, belief; can be changed/updated/evolved, only by education, coupled with a desire to change. That's probably why many people outside of South Africa don't understand how people with such strong cultural diversity can actually survive so successfully. The one's who have created barriers and thrive on a resistance to change will eventually leave (or have left, in a crazed effort to replicate their past). By latching on to negativity (crime, HIV, etc.), these people subconsciously create reasons to substantiate and verify their false perceptions of reality, (although, yes I agree that these are very real problems in SA, but then if we didn't have these issues, we'd be living in a Utopia). These people eventually become satisfied with the conclusions they draw, only by rejecting alternative sources of information.
History has proved that skewed realities created by perceptions based on faulty beliefs can be detrimental (slavery, holocaust, apartheid, etc, etc.)
The defence rests, your honour.
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Jet nut
You should be a politician.....I have read your post and find it devoid of conviction save for the fact that you appear you to want to patronise us from a dizzy height. I don't reject everything you say because there is some merit in it but it smacks of post-modern mumbo-jumbo that's constantly being thrown at us by media etc.
I guess in the middle of what you are trying to say - you're saying that SA is a good place - a success story if you will. I agree SA is a great place from people, to climate to geography, and more importantly there are some massive achievements of the last few years particularly the economy.
But to many South African's crime is a daily reality, HIV/AIDS policy is an unmitiagted disaster. Does that make me have a false perception of reality? Or can I call a spade a spade?
I thought we were meant to be discussing SAA - my view is that a very successful blue print for SAA has already been established 20+ years ago when Lord King took over BA under the Thatcher government and it was privatised in 1987, the IPO being over-subscribed several times.
The problem we have in SA is that the govt don't want to take tough decisions and sort SAA out. They have stated policies of privatisation but because the govt contains elements of COSATU and the bloody Communists
policy in this area will be weak and watered down....hence SAA rumbles on in the same old loss making way, with leadership that has no one to hold it to account, and which is effectively underwritten by taxpayers of SA.
Because SAA has no real pressure to deliver and effectively is considered to be above "the law" finanically - there is no moral imperative for them to take the steps necessary to create a good airline. Had say a private company made a R6bn hedging mistake they would have had to bear the consequences.....SAA got away scot free. This is unhealthy.
I'm reminded of a quite by the economist Adam Smith
You should be a politician.....I have read your post and find it devoid of conviction save for the fact that you appear you to want to patronise us from a dizzy height. I don't reject everything you say because there is some merit in it but it smacks of post-modern mumbo-jumbo that's constantly being thrown at us by media etc.
I guess in the middle of what you are trying to say - you're saying that SA is a good place - a success story if you will. I agree SA is a great place from people, to climate to geography, and more importantly there are some massive achievements of the last few years particularly the economy.
But to many South African's crime is a daily reality, HIV/AIDS policy is an unmitiagted disaster. Does that make me have a false perception of reality? Or can I call a spade a spade?
I thought we were meant to be discussing SAA - my view is that a very successful blue print for SAA has already been established 20+ years ago when Lord King took over BA under the Thatcher government and it was privatised in 1987, the IPO being over-subscribed several times.
The problem we have in SA is that the govt don't want to take tough decisions and sort SAA out. They have stated policies of privatisation but because the govt contains elements of COSATU and the bloody Communists
policy in this area will be weak and watered down....hence SAA rumbles on in the same old loss making way, with leadership that has no one to hold it to account, and which is effectively underwritten by taxpayers of SA.Because SAA has no real pressure to deliver and effectively is considered to be above "the law" finanically - there is no moral imperative for them to take the steps necessary to create a good airline. Had say a private company made a R6bn hedging mistake they would have had to bear the consequences.....SAA got away scot free. This is unhealthy.
I'm reminded of a quite by the economist Adam Smith
It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest. We address ourselves not to their humanity but to their self-love, and never talk to them of our necessities but of their advantages. Nobody but a beggar chooses to depend chiefly upon the benevolence of their fellow-citizens.
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J-Nut,
Apart from the plagiarized Adam Savage quote and a chapter or two from your philosophy 101 textbook (how's UNISA these days?), I would agree with most of your post.
Right up until the point that you are on the receiving end of a high velocity lead package delivered by a gainfully employed illegal immigrant whilst exiting your secure complex in that shiny 3-Series Beemer.
Or am I creating a false perception? I guess we'll never know, seeing as there is a moratorium on published crime statistics. Sure, bad things happen the world over, but a least they are outraged/shamed/embarrassed enough to splash it all over their front pages and politicians/CEOs are actually held accountable for their (in)action. What a novel idea.
Apart from the plagiarized Adam Savage quote and a chapter or two from your philosophy 101 textbook (how's UNISA these days?), I would agree with most of your post.
Right up until the point that you are on the receiving end of a high velocity lead package delivered by a gainfully employed illegal immigrant whilst exiting your secure complex in that shiny 3-Series Beemer.
Or am I creating a false perception? I guess we'll never know, seeing as there is a moratorium on published crime statistics. Sure, bad things happen the world over, but a least they are outraged/shamed/embarrassed enough to splash it all over their front pages and politicians/CEOs are actually held accountable for their (in)action. What a novel idea.
Last edited by journeyman; 17th Apr 2007 at 09:58.