View Poll Results: Bin this thread now or wait for it to go the way of all the other racial tripe? 4HP
Bin it
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26.80%
Let free speech prevail
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Voters: 97. This poll is closed
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Originally Posted by fluffyfan
bman0429, you ask what the alternatives to AA are, as I said in a earlier post....there are non....AA is neccessary in order to get this country to where it needs to be (yes SAA and the rest of the airlines need AA), lets just hope its done in a well thought out sane manner, unlike the land redistrubution was done in Zimbabwe.
And sorry one more point, you seem to imply that the worlds problems are all due to the white man imposing colonial boundries, yes that has caused problems, but by no stretch of the imagination was the world a nice peaceful place before the white man came along, just ask Chaka Zulu, or Gengis Khan, they murdered hundreds of thousand as did the Spanish Inquisition and the holocaust. We know very little about African history because it was not recorded, but I think we can assume it was as bloody as the rest of the worlds.
And sorry one more point, you seem to imply that the worlds problems are all due to the white man imposing colonial boundries, yes that has caused problems, but by no stretch of the imagination was the world a nice peaceful place before the white man came along, just ask Chaka Zulu, or Gengis Khan, they murdered hundreds of thousand as did the Spanish Inquisition and the holocaust. We know very little about African history because it was not recorded, but I think we can assume it was as bloody as the rest of the worlds.
I guess the motto should be AA its better than nothing?!
I don't think this thread has denegrated into ethnic slurs or name calling. Quite the contrary it has proven to be an opportunity for people with diverging view points from across the planet to share and debate an issue of which they care. Sure we may digress abit, but we must talk about the story of what has come before as it is paramountly relevant to the topic of AA today!
On colonialism. It is/was bad thing. Save the apologies because they are as hollow as the spirit in which the things whites "gave" Africans. The spirit of Altruism was not involved in the exploitation and colonization of the African continent.
The different between development and exploitation is that development treats that which is to be developed with care. Similar to an adult and a child or mentor/mentee relationship. Exploitation is when you take that child and Pimp them out on the street for your own enrichment. I think the latter example is what has been called the "development" of Africa.
JG1,
It is impossible to deny the military superiority of Europe during the time of colonization. It is also hard to deny what they came to Africa for and it wasn't the development of "mankind". It was for selfish geopolitcal power grabs and it wasn't right or fair. It is almost akin to saying that since I live in the US and we are the biggest most powerful military force on the planet perhaps in history, we have the right to invade and take over what ever countries we wish for their resources without any consideration or deference to the people of that land (damn that's not to far from reality is it
) That wouldn't be right or fair, even though the Dutch have some stuff I really like
!Sure the minerals in the ground weren't of great importance to subsitance farmers, but it was their land and their home and they should have been treated and compensated fairly.
I guess my whole point in being here is to really try and appeal to the conscience and compassion of whites out there and say " yeah things are changing rapidly and sometimes not for the good, but don't be afraid don't run away. You are needed! Do not fight with us as we find our way, but participate. Do not try and shape this land in your image help us shape it in one that is ours. Dominoin is not the goal, but Africa must be in charge of its destiny. Warmer and more hospitable people I have yet to find in my travels. Forgiveness is in their hearts as compassion and understanding is in yours."
Colonization could have been so much better and so much more instead it was just as screw job.
I like your proposal of free education as an alternative to AA, but it alone isn't enough. The people making the hiring decision may still hold a bias. The organizational culture maystill hold a bias (as it sometimes appears to). The power must be balanced! Not in a the sense of numbers, but in the sense of shared destiny and interest! That will not happen untill blacks hold positions of power in all aspects of life and in significant amounts. This must be balanced by a respect for minority groups and an inclusive national agenda.
OK off my soap box
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flufffyfan
If you read this thread very carefully you might notice that there is a bit of a racial "issue" sticking its head out. It has become somewhat racial and some people might have perceived some statements to be very strong.
HP4 is on the brink on binning this thread which I happen to think its quite an interresting one and would like to see it continue. I was merely pointing out that we should not engage in any racial insults as AlternativeProcedure pointed out.
So dont attack me.....READ MY POSTS DUDE! I happen to agree with bman0429 AND JG1....and with some of YOUR statements too as a matter of fact.
HP4, why not restart the voting....
HP4 is on the brink on binning this thread which I happen to think its quite an interresting one and would like to see it continue. I was merely pointing out that we should not engage in any racial insults as AlternativeProcedure pointed out.
So dont attack me.....READ MY POSTS DUDE! I happen to agree with bman0429 AND JG1....and with some of YOUR statements too as a matter of fact.
HP4, why not restart the voting....
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Back to the topic.....What are the alternatives to AA, at the moment there are non, why? because the government failed to make a plan 10 years ago, according to the Act it is the company that are responsible for implimenting the AA policy. But the company did nothing, ie the government did nothing.
What they did do was leave it to the pilots to sort out, and the SAA pilots union (SAAPA) are the ones trying to comply with the act and do the companies job for them. What was needed and perhaps a solution for the future instead of AA is for the government to invest heavily on the youth that wish to or show an interest or aptitude for aviation, not only the government, why dont some of the black elite who earn millions (some even fly to work in helicopters ) invest in a flying school / training establishment.
There are lots of alternatives to AA, I personally think that the right place to start is to educate and inform the black youth about aviation, to plant the seed and let it grow then let them find there own way like the vast majority of pilots out there have, however the whole situation has been left so long that the quick fix to the horribly one sided pilot ratio is AA.
And just one more thing, as I have said before, the act encompasses all companies of a certain size, its not just SAA, its all the other airlines as well, thats the law, however its only SAA (with a few token gestures from the others) that are enforcing it at any sort of scale, with the Cadet programme and possibly a few accelerated commands (they are negotiating at the moment about this however last I heard is that this negotiation has fallen apart), to date only a few pilots have had there seniority adjusted because of the past.
What they did do was leave it to the pilots to sort out, and the SAA pilots union (SAAPA) are the ones trying to comply with the act and do the companies job for them. What was needed and perhaps a solution for the future instead of AA is for the government to invest heavily on the youth that wish to or show an interest or aptitude for aviation, not only the government, why dont some of the black elite who earn millions (some even fly to work in helicopters
) invest in a flying school / training establishment.There are lots of alternatives to AA, I personally think that the right place to start is to educate and inform the black youth about aviation, to plant the seed and let it grow then let them find there own way like the vast majority of pilots out there have, however the whole situation has been left so long that the quick fix to the horribly one sided pilot ratio is AA.
And just one more thing, as I have said before, the act encompasses all companies of a certain size, its not just SAA, its all the other airlines as well, thats the law, however its only SAA (with a few token gestures from the others) that are enforcing it at any sort of scale, with the Cadet programme and possibly a few accelerated commands (they are negotiating at the moment about this however last I heard is that this negotiation has fallen apart), to date only a few pilots have had there seniority adjusted because of the past.
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Why not do AA for cadet programmes and give that opportunity to those "less priviledged" that are seemed suiteble for the job. However when it comes to those, that are ready entry pilots, whether they went through the cadet system or through their own means or individual training, they be taken for their level of experience and competence and not by their skin colour.
I have heard that many cadets do not even make it through the program. I have heard from SAA interns that the attitude of some P3's are not even to persue a carreer in aviation - they are quote: "just sitting for the ride, literally sitting jump seat, polishing or laquering their nails, to get some nice cash and then one day become something like a graphic designer". Some are just there because the opportunity was offered to them and not because they would have thought of it themselves and their own aspiration. Sorry but if those rumors I've heard are true - it is ridiculous !
I am happy to see black people coming to our flying club and do their PPL's and CPL's thing like everybody else is and I am sure they will prove that AA is not needed to change things, it will happen by itself sooner or later. I would love to fly with these guys and gals anytime and I know most of my fellow white South Africans would too.
Quote Fluffyfan: "why dont some of the black elite who earn millions (some even fly to work in helicopters ) invest in a flying school / training establishment" Unquote: I think this is a marvelous idea.
I have heard that many cadets do not even make it through the program. I have heard from SAA interns that the attitude of some P3's are not even to persue a carreer in aviation - they are quote: "just sitting for the ride, literally sitting jump seat, polishing or laquering their nails, to get some nice cash and then one day become something like a graphic designer". Some are just there because the opportunity was offered to them and not because they would have thought of it themselves and their own aspiration. Sorry but if those rumors I've heard are true - it is ridiculous !
I am happy to see black people coming to our flying club and do their PPL's and CPL's thing like everybody else is and I am sure they will prove that AA is not needed to change things, it will happen by itself sooner or later. I would love to fly with these guys and gals anytime and I know most of my fellow white South Africans would too.
Quote Fluffyfan: "why dont some of the black elite who earn millions (some even fly to work in helicopters
) invest in a flying school / training establishment" Unquote: I think this is a marvelous idea.
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SAA cadet program is only for the "connected" few
Rightly said fluffyfan and Propellerpilot.
AA figures in aviation will not be achieved because there are just not enough black pilots coming through the system.
The cadet scheme is also flawed in many ways.
1) Most of the cadets are well connected and thus get "selected" for the program. While some of them realy want to fly, a large percentage (as Propellerpilot pointed out) are just there for the ride. Some cadets' fathers are so wealthy that they can afford to buy them a plane, let alone sponser them their CPL's. They arrive there in fancy cars with lot of spending money and an attitude that sucks.
2) A large percentage of cadets find that it is just too hard work and either quit, or get washed because the passion is just not there. They see it as just another job. Those with this attitude arrive at SAA, fat and happy, but dont see a 30 year+ career through...they quit after a while or fall pregnant.
3) The cost involved are too high....I heard a figure of R500 000 per cadet.
4) Cadets block the market for everybody because they are placed at airlines like SAX, Link, Solento, etc to be groomed for SAA. When they eventualy get their appointment at SAA after 3 years at the feeder Airlines, they have approximately 2500 hours but NO command experience.
"There are lots of alternatives to AA, I personally think that the right place to start is to educate and inform the black youth about aviation, to plant the seed and let it grow then let them find there own way like the vast majority of pilots out there have, however the whole situation has been left so long that the quick fix to the horribly one sided pilot ratio is AA."
As a solution to getting the figures right, I think fluffyfan made a spot on observation/comment. Instead of spending R500 000 on one cadet (who most probably wont see his career to the end because he has little passion for what he does) why not spend R50 000 on 10 wannabe's.
Assuming roughly 10 cadets obtain their wings at a cost of R5mil to the taxpayer, why not then spend half the amount, but expose 50 black kids to aviation by giving them a PPL. Select the top 20% and see them through to the feeder airlines, if you must. The rest must fend for themselves, work hard like all the other wannabe's do to get their CPL's, go give instruction and later on find a contract job.
This way the same amout of "cadets" gets pushed into the market, with a possible 40 more to come through the system in due course with a lot of depth due to contract work etc.
AA figures in aviation will not be achieved because there are just not enough black pilots coming through the system.
The cadet scheme is also flawed in many ways.
1) Most of the cadets are well connected and thus get "selected" for the program. While some of them realy want to fly, a large percentage (as Propellerpilot pointed out) are just there for the ride. Some cadets' fathers are so wealthy that they can afford to buy them a plane, let alone sponser them their CPL's. They arrive there in fancy cars with lot of spending money and an attitude that sucks.
2) A large percentage of cadets find that it is just too hard work and either quit, or get washed because the passion is just not there. They see it as just another job. Those with this attitude arrive at SAA, fat and happy, but dont see a 30 year+ career through...they quit after a while or fall pregnant.
3) The cost involved are too high....I heard a figure of R500 000 per cadet.
4) Cadets block the market for everybody because they are placed at airlines like SAX, Link, Solento, etc to be groomed for SAA. When they eventualy get their appointment at SAA after 3 years at the feeder Airlines, they have approximately 2500 hours but NO command experience.
"There are lots of alternatives to AA, I personally think that the right place to start is to educate and inform the black youth about aviation, to plant the seed and let it grow then let them find there own way like the vast majority of pilots out there have, however the whole situation has been left so long that the quick fix to the horribly one sided pilot ratio is AA."
As a solution to getting the figures right, I think fluffyfan made a spot on observation/comment. Instead of spending R500 000 on one cadet (who most probably wont see his career to the end because he has little passion for what he does) why not spend R50 000 on 10 wannabe's.
Assuming roughly 10 cadets obtain their wings at a cost of R5mil to the taxpayer, why not then spend half the amount, but expose 50 black kids to aviation by giving them a PPL. Select the top 20% and see them through to the feeder airlines, if you must. The rest must fend for themselves, work hard like all the other wannabe's do to get their CPL's, go give instruction and later on find a contract job.
This way the same amout of "cadets" gets pushed into the market, with a possible 40 more to come through the system in due course with a lot of depth due to contract work etc.
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I think FWK has written up a great solution and alternative - I think that would be great it should be refined and presented to the gremiums concerned. It would boost our local flying clubs who do need more members and students and will actually help them survive and help maintain a higher standard of training. It would improve the GA infrastructure as a whole and in the end also our feeder airlines and SAA in the end will benefit.
The R500000 taxpayer money would be far better invested because of the direct return and the standards of pilots actually making it into the airline will be better, as they have more choices.
The R500000 taxpayer money would be far better invested because of the direct return and the standards of pilots actually making it into the airline will be better, as they have more choices.
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What a great idea! Put the R500K into a bursary fund, then hold selections which include exams with questions which someone who has been passionate about aviation from a young age will be able to answer. Not technical things, things like "name 10 types of WWII fighter' and 'what engine did most marks of Spitfire have'? etc, then you will get the right candidates. Give them the money for a PPL, and their CPL exam fees & course fees and from then on its up to them.
For a start you will have ten more black pilots entering the aviation scene, instead of just one who might turn out to be a lemon.
And as FWK said, it helps the whole industry from the ground up, it doesn't constipate it in mid-flow with the injection of cadets into feeder airlines as the current system does.
For a start you will have ten more black pilots entering the aviation scene, instead of just one who might turn out to be a lemon.
And as FWK said, it helps the whole industry from the ground up, it doesn't constipate it in mid-flow with the injection of cadets into feeder airlines as the current system does.
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What a great idea. Spread the net wider.
I have always believed that you should look for the child with his face up against the airport fence watching the aircraft. They are the ones with the passion for flight.
I would be a great thing if they where given the chance to fulfill their dreams.
Cheers
Paddy
I have always believed that you should look for the child with his face up against the airport fence watching the aircraft. They are the ones with the passion for flight.
I would be a great thing if they where given the chance to fulfill their dreams.
Cheers
Paddy
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Sponsors
I recently saw a program on TV interviewing different rock/music artists about politics. I loved what Chris Cristofferson(SIC) had to say about the American AdministrationS... "There is only one goverment in the USA: The war goverment!"
Well, I would like to know what ONE Saab Grippen is going to cost the taxpayer. IE Purchase price.Spares stocks.Maintenance costs.Personel training etc....... Who needs teacher/police/nurses?? You've got GUNS to look after you!.....
Now take one of these, and SPONSOR "Previously disadvantaged persons", for the cost of training as a professional pilot. Give back to them, timeously, what they spend towards training-:as they progress. NOT before!
We used to have this.
Can it be faulted?
Why?
Well, I would like to know what ONE Saab Grippen is going to cost the taxpayer. IE Purchase price.Spares stocks.Maintenance costs.Personel training etc....... Who needs teacher/police/nurses?? You've got GUNS to look after you!.....
Now take one of these, and SPONSOR "Previously disadvantaged persons", for the cost of training as a professional pilot. Give back to them, timeously, what they spend towards training-:as they progress. NOT before!
We used to have this.
Can it be faulted?
Why?
Gatvol
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Fwk Posts:
"If you read this thread very carefully you might notice that there is a bit of a racial "issue" sticking its head out. It has become somewhat racial and some people might have perceived some statements to be very strong."
Then He posts:"AA figures in aviation will not be achieved because there are just not enough black pilots coming through the system."
Racial comments only good if they meet your side of the agenda............??
"If you read this thread very carefully you might notice that there is a bit of a racial "issue" sticking its head out. It has become somewhat racial and some people might have perceived some statements to be very strong."
Then He posts:"AA figures in aviation will not be achieved because there are just not enough black pilots coming through the system."
Racial comments only good if they meet your side of the agenda............??
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Quite agree with 3rd Bogey
I benefited from a subsidy for my Grade III back in the early 80's and I only got it after I passed the test having paid for the training myself. I didn't cover it completely but it amounted to about 80% and was most welcome at the time. Was it money well spent by the DCA? Well I'm still instructing and I still have a valid SA Grade II.
I definitely think that something like this would benefit only sponsoring sufficiently motivated people who were previously disadvantaged i.e. start with the PPL; then with the CPL exams passed, then sponsor for the CPL, then the IR and with instructors ratings complete put them back into instructing the next batch coming through. Then with a 1000 hours put them in to the airlines - just like it used to be in the old days for the advantaged!
Now take one of these, and SPONSOR "Previously disadvantaged persons", for the cost of training as a professional pilot. Give back to them, timeously, what they spend towards training-:as they progress. NOT before!
We used to have this.
We used to have this.
I definitely think that something like this would benefit only sponsoring sufficiently motivated people who were previously disadvantaged i.e. start with the PPL; then with the CPL exams passed, then sponsor for the CPL, then the IR and with instructors ratings complete put them back into instructing the next batch coming through. Then with a 1000 hours put them in to the airlines - just like it used to be in the old days for the advantaged!
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B Sousa
Originally Posted by B Sousa
Fwk Posts:
"If you read this thread very carefully you might notice that there is a bit of a racial "issue" sticking its head out. It has become somewhat racial and some people might have perceived some statements to be very strong."
Then He posts:"AA figures in aviation will not be achieved because there are just not enough black pilots coming through the system."
Racial comments only good if they meet your side of the agenda............??
"If you read this thread very carefully you might notice that there is a bit of a racial "issue" sticking its head out. It has become somewhat racial and some people might have perceived some statements to be very strong."
Then He posts:"AA figures in aviation will not be achieved because there are just not enough black pilots coming through the system."
Racial comments only good if they meet your side of the agenda............??
FWK
Last edited by FlingWingKing; 14th May 2006 at 08:49.
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Originally Posted by FlingWingKing
There is a huge diffirece in racial "negative" comments and the statement I made (in bold avove). I stated fact and proceeded with a suggestion as to a possible solution to get "enough black pilots coming through the system". It would be appreciated if you would stop "stirring" and maybe contribute with some constructive participation.
FWK
FWK
Hey FWK is a good guy who's I think ultimately understands that there is a need to address the aims of AA. Whether AA is the ans. is up for debate. Sponsor ship programs sound good, but will it really work on the scale in which we are talkin in SA?
I think what is really needed is exposure and mentorships. People who've been excluded from a field previously may not nessicarily feel as though they can participate in that field going forward. They need to see people that they identify with in those positions. Everyone isn't comfortable being in the vanguard. I think this must be coupled with a cultural change in the work force. Meaning the ideas of superiority vs inferiority must be completely erased from the workplace and those who make policy.
FWK, brother together we can make a better future for us all!
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"It would be appreciated if you would stop "stirring" and maybe contribute with some constructive participation."
Striing just translates to "Its not your opinion"
"I think ultimately understands that there is a need to address the aims of AA."
Heres a no-brainer. The aim is to replace white with black. End of story. Its not unique to SA and they do not hold a patent on it. It will be here long after we are gone. What would be interesting is to have applicants resumes without name, race, gender on them and see who filters to the top.
No need to have folks offended by the truth....
SAA is also unique in that they live on the taxpayers tit. If that were to go away it would certainly change the ballgame. Based on the managers through there in the past few years it would probably close the book on that airline.
It would also take the Pilot problem away from the taxpayer.
Throughout the world Pilots get jobs based on the resume, the majority of whom have struggled to build that resume. Its been some 10+ years now for those who at that time wanted to fly and few if any have grabbed their own bootstraps to make them viable in the world of aviation. Much easier to reach out and say its not fair.
If you want to replace all SAA crew with Blacks, just do it. The world will understand. Take those applicants through a screening process, train them and Voila, problem solved.
If this thread is any example of how there are no easy answers , let it be a lesson.
Time for the 4hp fireaxe.
Striing just translates to "Its not your opinion"
"I think ultimately understands that there is a need to address the aims of AA."
Heres a no-brainer. The aim is to replace white with black. End of story. Its not unique to SA and they do not hold a patent on it. It will be here long after we are gone. What would be interesting is to have applicants resumes without name, race, gender on them and see who filters to the top.
No need to have folks offended by the truth....
SAA is also unique in that they live on the taxpayers tit. If that were to go away it would certainly change the ballgame. Based on the managers through there in the past few years it would probably close the book on that airline.
It would also take the Pilot problem away from the taxpayer.
Throughout the world Pilots get jobs based on the resume, the majority of whom have struggled to build that resume. Its been some 10+ years now for those who at that time wanted to fly and few if any have grabbed their own bootstraps to make them viable in the world of aviation. Much easier to reach out and say its not fair.
If you want to replace all SAA crew with Blacks, just do it. The world will understand. Take those applicants through a screening process, train them and Voila, problem solved.
If this thread is any example of how there are no easy answers , let it be a lesson.
Time for the 4hp fireaxe.
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B Sousa, I agree that this thread has outlived itself. Furthermore, I agree that AA is not right, a fact I stated in a previous post. But right or wong, it is here to stay....unfortuanatly. We need to find some way to deal with it.
FACT: there is not enough black pilots to replace the whites....otherwise they would ALL have been at SAA roaming the passages, earning a fat salary...cause if you think about it, that is ultimately what AA is about....enrichment.
I'm out of here....for good this time!!
FACT: there is not enough black pilots to replace the whites....otherwise they would ALL have been at SAA roaming the passages, earning a fat salary...cause if you think about it, that is ultimately what AA is about....enrichment.
I'm out of here....for good this time!!
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"If you read this thread very carefully you might notice that there is a bit of a racial "issue" sticking its head out. It has become somewhat racial and some people might have perceived some statements to be very strong."
Heres a no-brainer. The aim is to replace white with black. End of story.
SAA is also unique in that they live on the taxpayers tit
Gatvol
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"Sorry but I dont agree, its not the aim at all, the aim is to get the ratio correct or at least try to rectify a horribly one sided ratio the best you can, nobody is going to get fired at SAA or anywere else because they are white, hence they are not being replaced."
Fluffy, please..We have that shoved up our backsides in the states." correct the ratio", give me a break. Here in the States that crap has been going on for 50 years and the kids today are still screaming life is not fair to them. Based on your statement its the same thing. What is the Ratio of Black to White in SA?? Given that there will only be a couple left seaters in the whole company with the last name Van Something.
Problem is folks like you believe AA will stop at a magic number and everyone will love everyone.......And if you think some white faces are not getting the boot in SA to make room for others off the street, you had better wake up. Maybe not yet so at SAA but its happening in the real world.
"cared so strongly about the "poor old Taxpayer" issue when SAA was flying 20 passengers in a 747"
Sounds like a serious management problem. Could it have then been 20 pax and some serious cargo?? If you want to go back a few years you may even find that SAA may have been funded by the taxpayers, but it was also doing a ton of "Government Business" Think theres a thread out on a crash that sheds a little light on that. Maybe even a "government" Airline subsidized by some paying passengers.
Taxpayers around the world, not just SA should NOT be in any commercial business with the Government managing things. Governments traditionally cannot manage economically.
Fluffy, please..We have that shoved up our backsides in the states." correct the ratio", give me a break. Here in the States that crap has been going on for 50 years and the kids today are still screaming life is not fair to them. Based on your statement its the same thing. What is the Ratio of Black to White in SA?? Given that there will only be a couple left seaters in the whole company with the last name Van Something.
Problem is folks like you believe AA will stop at a magic number and everyone will love everyone.......And if you think some white faces are not getting the boot in SA to make room for others off the street, you had better wake up. Maybe not yet so at SAA but its happening in the real world.
"cared so strongly about the "poor old Taxpayer" issue when SAA was flying 20 passengers in a 747"
Sounds like a serious management problem. Could it have then been 20 pax and some serious cargo?? If you want to go back a few years you may even find that SAA may have been funded by the taxpayers, but it was also doing a ton of "Government Business" Think theres a thread out on a crash that sheds a little light on that. Maybe even a "government" Airline subsidized by some paying passengers.
Taxpayers around the world, not just SA should NOT be in any commercial business with the Government managing things. Governments traditionally cannot manage economically.
