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SAA Flight-Deck Affirmative Action
Paxing All Over The World
Never before have seen the ZA/African situation summed up so well. I have been trying to convey this to my friends in the UK, so that they can understand.
It is one of the interesting facts of human behaviour that, when a group (by class/colour/gender/etc.) have been given a good kicking by their opponents - when they get to be top dog - they will repeat the kicking. On a minor scale, we see this when an individual is abused as a child and will often repeat this in adult life. On a grander scale, Israel is now kicking the Palestinians. This is what humans do.
It is one of the interesting facts of human behaviour that, when a group (by class/colour/gender/etc.) have been given a good kicking by their opponents - when they get to be top dog - they will repeat the kicking. On a minor scale, we see this when an individual is abused as a child and will often repeat this in adult life. On a grander scale, Israel is now kicking the Palestinians. This is what humans do.
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As far as the SAA situation goes, if I judge it correctly, some fears are :
That Affirmative Action candidates (Black, female) are to get fast-tracked to Command, bypassing the seniority system;
AA Captains being 'babysat' by more experienced white F/O's whose chances of Command have been reduced to 'extremely remote';
As more AA crew are employed there would be a change in the makeup and therefore common mindset of SAAPA, to the further detriment of standards;
That SAAPA would be weakened by a majority of politically-appointed crew members, leading to its' eventual loss of power (breaking of the union);
and there are probably a few more, but these are the important ones.
To be an SAA pilot is the goal which most pilots in South Africa try to achieve. SAA pilots are renowned for their high standard of training, their high standard of operating, their enviable safety record and not least, their high standard of pay. This has not happened by accident. SAA pilots have set this standard. They stick together and part of this bond is the discipline to maintain these standards.
No matter what the policies of government are, SAA pilots at the present time still hold the reins of power in SAA. If they are to maintain these high standards, remuneration and power in their union and avoid the rot which affirmative action brings, including the points cited above, they still have the power to insist that they and they alone be responsible for crew hiring policies at SAA, through threat of industrial action.
By doing this they will maintain the high standards within SAA, and through a knock-on effect, the standard of the industry in SA, as well as protecting the system from political interference.
That Affirmative Action candidates (Black, female) are to get fast-tracked to Command, bypassing the seniority system;
AA Captains being 'babysat' by more experienced white F/O's whose chances of Command have been reduced to 'extremely remote';
As more AA crew are employed there would be a change in the makeup and therefore common mindset of SAAPA, to the further detriment of standards;
That SAAPA would be weakened by a majority of politically-appointed crew members, leading to its' eventual loss of power (breaking of the union);
and there are probably a few more, but these are the important ones.
To be an SAA pilot is the goal which most pilots in South Africa try to achieve. SAA pilots are renowned for their high standard of training, their high standard of operating, their enviable safety record and not least, their high standard of pay. This has not happened by accident. SAA pilots have set this standard. They stick together and part of this bond is the discipline to maintain these standards.
No matter what the policies of government are, SAA pilots at the present time still hold the reins of power in SAA. If they are to maintain these high standards, remuneration and power in their union and avoid the rot which affirmative action brings, including the points cited above, they still have the power to insist that they and they alone be responsible for crew hiring policies at SAA, through threat of industrial action.
By doing this they will maintain the high standards within SAA, and through a knock-on effect, the standard of the industry in SA, as well as protecting the system from political interference.
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Goes to show you!
Originally Posted by JG1
1. With regard to the employment of low-time black pilots to SAA, I think in reality it's not the experience issue which many here are concerned about, it's the fact that these low-time blacks are 'jumping the queue' and putting more experienced white pilots out of a job. Complaining about low experience is simply a cover for complaining that you are being nobbed by affirmative action. There are hundreds of low-time (250hr) pilots flying commercial jets in Europe.
2. White culture in SA is very different from black culture. Very very different. Blacks and whites here think differently. Lots of whites cannot understand why Mugabe gets voted back in time after time. Lots of blacks can - they see him as the Chief Who Kicked the Whites Out and no matter what he does, or whether or not they like him, due to the inherent respect of heroes and elders in their culture, the majority will continue to support him to the end.
3. Blacks in Zim (and here, I suspect) would rather live in ruins than under 'the white man's yoke' again. The logic applied here is not 'what is the best for me/us/the country', it is 'we are the winners' ie. jungle rule #1.
Consequently no matter what the whites think, to the blacks it has been and always will be an us-against-them thing. In their tribal culture, until as recently as 3 or 4 generations ago, this us-against-them mindset ensured that their different tribes lived in a constant state of aggression. We see that clearly today in SA, it's not just the Black vs White thing, its the Zulu vs Xhosa thing, etc.
4. The whites here, thinking differently, and being a product of a society in Europe which had de-tribalized and learned to compromise many centuries ago, don't think like this. When we voted 'Yes' in the Referendum it was to end apartheid and racism, and to forge a harmonious compromise between all for the betterment of the country/us/me.
5. The transition happened, but it seems that whilst the Whites have been bending over backward to keep their side of the compromise, the Blacks are becoming more and more uncompromising (refer the Tutu speech recently) and are set to impose their policies whether workable or not. Again, the logic applied here is not 'what is the best for me/us/the country', it is 'we are the winners, you fall in line'.
6. The Blacks in SA find life very biased toward them under affirmative action. It is not just preferred employment. If a Black wishes to start a business, he/she gets free grants, preferential (often interest-free) loans, and preferential contracts and contacts. This will remain so, as long as their culture remains 'strongest survives'.
7. Its my belief that the reason there are so few black pilots is because to get to the stage of being employable as an airline pilot (even a 250hr one) takes dedication and a lot of hard work. Since transition if you were a black pilot your future was as rosy as could be, it was almost handed to you on a plate, yet, there is still a significant shortage of black pilots. Why? because although a SAA job would be handed to you on a plate, you had to do some hard work first. No, there is more money to be recieved/taken/applied for under other facets of Affirmative Action - as a Black you can get rich far quicker in other ways. Only someone who has a real passion for aviation would go through the hard work and study required to get to ATPL level.
8. Apart from affirmative action, the other downfall in Africa is the Handout Syndrome which started with sailors long ago handing out free beads/mirrors/what have you to the locals. The White Man has been seen for generations as The Giver/The Provider thus relegating the Black Man to the status of The Taker/The Demander.
9.Unfortunately AA/BEE and the Handout Syndrome fit hand in glove to ensure that the Givers/Providers get fleeced in an optimal way. The Givers/Providers get to pay tax, but have no say in governance - they are turned into economic prisoners. When their powers of Providence wane, they are of no further use and will be chopped. History has shown this over and over.
10. The Black Man is in charge in SA now, the White Man must either overthrow him or leave for greener pastures, there is no compromise. Which is why we hear all the SA accents in all the other regions of the world. There is no compromise, from now on the White Man will provide the loaf and get the breadcrumbs.
11. No matter how you gloss the facts, this is the situation. Personally I have no hatred/dislike/disdain for blacks at all, I just like systems to be optimised. So a biased system based on unworkable principles really get under my skin. Just as Apartheid did.
12. The old Regime also disadvantaged white males in that they had to do National Service - forced to forfeit 2 of the best years of their lives to support the Apartheid Regime. Not only were these two years lost forever - many of those servicemen still bear the psychological scars of that time and many of their lives were, and still are, affected negatively by this experience in a tremendous way.
13. What I'd like to see is all of us just get on with it, forget old grievances, and stop turning the racist past into a racist present. "The past was simple, the present tense, and the future perfect"!
2. White culture in SA is very different from black culture. Very very different. Blacks and whites here think differently. Lots of whites cannot understand why Mugabe gets voted back in time after time. Lots of blacks can - they see him as the Chief Who Kicked the Whites Out and no matter what he does, or whether or not they like him, due to the inherent respect of heroes and elders in their culture, the majority will continue to support him to the end.
3. Blacks in Zim (and here, I suspect) would rather live in ruins than under 'the white man's yoke' again. The logic applied here is not 'what is the best for me/us/the country', it is 'we are the winners' ie. jungle rule #1.
Consequently no matter what the whites think, to the blacks it has been and always will be an us-against-them thing. In their tribal culture, until as recently as 3 or 4 generations ago, this us-against-them mindset ensured that their different tribes lived in a constant state of aggression. We see that clearly today in SA, it's not just the Black vs White thing, its the Zulu vs Xhosa thing, etc.
4. The whites here, thinking differently, and being a product of a society in Europe which had de-tribalized and learned to compromise many centuries ago, don't think like this. When we voted 'Yes' in the Referendum it was to end apartheid and racism, and to forge a harmonious compromise between all for the betterment of the country/us/me.
5. The transition happened, but it seems that whilst the Whites have been bending over backward to keep their side of the compromise, the Blacks are becoming more and more uncompromising (refer the Tutu speech recently) and are set to impose their policies whether workable or not. Again, the logic applied here is not 'what is the best for me/us/the country', it is 'we are the winners, you fall in line'.
6. The Blacks in SA find life very biased toward them under affirmative action. It is not just preferred employment. If a Black wishes to start a business, he/she gets free grants, preferential (often interest-free) loans, and preferential contracts and contacts. This will remain so, as long as their culture remains 'strongest survives'.
7. Its my belief that the reason there are so few black pilots is because to get to the stage of being employable as an airline pilot (even a 250hr one) takes dedication and a lot of hard work. Since transition if you were a black pilot your future was as rosy as could be, it was almost handed to you on a plate, yet, there is still a significant shortage of black pilots. Why? because although a SAA job would be handed to you on a plate, you had to do some hard work first. No, there is more money to be recieved/taken/applied for under other facets of Affirmative Action - as a Black you can get rich far quicker in other ways. Only someone who has a real passion for aviation would go through the hard work and study required to get to ATPL level.
8. Apart from affirmative action, the other downfall in Africa is the Handout Syndrome which started with sailors long ago handing out free beads/mirrors/what have you to the locals. The White Man has been seen for generations as The Giver/The Provider thus relegating the Black Man to the status of The Taker/The Demander.
9.Unfortunately AA/BEE and the Handout Syndrome fit hand in glove to ensure that the Givers/Providers get fleeced in an optimal way. The Givers/Providers get to pay tax, but have no say in governance - they are turned into economic prisoners. When their powers of Providence wane, they are of no further use and will be chopped. History has shown this over and over.
10. The Black Man is in charge in SA now, the White Man must either overthrow him or leave for greener pastures, there is no compromise. Which is why we hear all the SA accents in all the other regions of the world. There is no compromise, from now on the White Man will provide the loaf and get the breadcrumbs.
11. No matter how you gloss the facts, this is the situation. Personally I have no hatred/dislike/disdain for blacks at all, I just like systems to be optimised. So a biased system based on unworkable principles really get under my skin. Just as Apartheid did.
12. The old Regime also disadvantaged white males in that they had to do National Service - forced to forfeit 2 of the best years of their lives to support the Apartheid Regime. Not only were these two years lost forever - many of those servicemen still bear the psychological scars of that time and many of their lives were, and still are, affected negatively by this experience in a tremendous way.
13. What I'd like to see is all of us just get on with it, forget old grievances, and stop turning the racist past into a racist present. "The past was simple, the present tense, and the future perfect"!
JG,
Wow!
I am unsure if I understand the tone of your post, but it comes off rather arrogant!
And the nodding heads in agreement proves something. Whites colonialists (and their descendents) don't feel any culpability for what they have done to Africa and its people. Read that to mean exploit!
Anyone care to disagree?!
The continent of Africa is rich in natural resources yet those resources have been sucked right out of the place for the benefit of white Europeans. This has gone on for centuries! The borders that exist where drawn up by Europeans for the benefit of the Nations that claimed lands they had no right to in the first place. The tribal warfare that the "civilized" are so quick to malign is caused because of national borders drawn up by whites and it doesn't exist in Africa only. The conflicts among different "tribes" in Iraq, India, Pakistan and many others are examples of such. The tribes weren't consulted in the division of the land and they were forced to live amongst each other under an oppressive regieme.
Robert Mugabe is a creation of colonialism and his support is an after effect of that. Anyone's inability to understand this probably stems from the fact that they have never know what it was like to be victimized in your own home. You glorify your leaders faults and all!
Example:
Someone comes into your home by force rapes and sodomizes you steals all of your possesions and then by some remarkable bout of conscience decides to leave and now you want the victim to just shrug and say bygones!
Aparthied wasn't an accident or a mistake. Nor was colonialism. It isn't a history you can wish away. Ten years of freedom and power over their own destiny is not nearly telling.
The white man has never seen the black man as an equal. Not then and not now especially in SA!
"the White Man must either overthrow him or leave for greener pastures, there is no compromise"
Sure there is live as a minority as is your place in that country and fight for repesentation and the better ment of your country for everyone! That's what minorities have to do and just societies arise to that eventually and not with out much pain and struggle.
The problem is white people have never really experienced this, ever! They don't know how to deal with it and it emasculates them as a culture. History has shown a need for whites to dominate (even though they are a minority as a race on this planet)!
SA is a beautiful country and no one can take away the fact that it is what it is today due to the influences of whites. It has a brilliant culture and history and has the potential to be something spectacular. If whites believe that SA is their home then they shouldn't be afraid to stay and see it realize its potential. It needs you! The blacks need you although they may not see it.
Whites SAs aren't victims, but they must stay and stand and becounted. They can be stewards to making the African continent and the African people realize its potential.
But I have digressed from the point of the thread. Can anyone give the numbers for the number of "fast tracked" AA Captains at SAA. Is this a real and present threat or an imagined one?
Paxing All Over The World
Whilst I understand the reason for AA, the question is - When will it be removed?
If there were N years of apartheid, will there be N years of AA and then back to a neutral balance and allow market forces to establish themselves, as if the previous N + N years of swing had not occurred?
If there were N years of apartheid, will there be N years of AA and then back to a neutral balance and allow market forces to establish themselves, as if the previous N + N years of swing had not occurred?
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Truth Spoken
It was very interesting to read through this whole thread it portrays very well, what is happening in this country and explains different mentalities, maybe not for certain individuals but on a general level.
AA is wrong as it is undemocratic and does not provide equal opportunity for all populations - period. Not once was the presence of our large coloured, malay and indian community in our country mentioned - these are even more affected by AA as the white population.
It is also not correct for people to assume that black=poor.
I myself and many others I know, have gone and are still going through a lot of sacrifice to achieve a basic CPL - working like a dog in a nine to five job for years to realize the goal of flying professionally - flying 2-3 hours a month because the cost of living did not allow for more. But we do this because this is our passion and we live this dream. I accept this because I have started my aviation carreer relativly late (because it took time to jump into a salary group, where I could afford flying - it took studying a different field and aquiring a university degree...). I think things would have been different if there would have been other possibilities directly after school. The point is I am not moaning about this ! - but I do not understand why a black man should not have to go through the same thing? He will achieve his goal if he is serious and is passionate about what he is doing. The same opportunity of finacial aid programmes should apply for a young white kid, coloured kid or whatever his or her race may be, irrelative of percentages, as the individual is not then not merited for his/her personal abilities.
From another perspective I think AA is also not really fair for those it is meant for, as one might think it subjects them to a subtle but intense pressure to prove that they are really fit for those positions. In fact more than one of those that I have come across in training institutions (who over time have actually proven unfit
and suddenly dissappeared out of the scene and not paying up their outstanding accounts) have presented a dangerous flair of bold arrogance in their personalities to cover insecurities, namely of fear of being judged or making the wrong impression, instead of retaining a natural humble and modest attitude towards instructors and collegues and being human. We are not flying because we have to prove our egos. But SAA has CRM to sort that kind of stuff out...
I have been around the GA scene in Cape Town - here I have personally not come across ANY black pilots - even in small business jets or turbo-props that belong to black businessmen - they have employed white pilots too. The only exeption I know of is Anglo American Corp. Mentioning the idea to forcefully employ black pilots especially for single pilot ops for charter companys creates a nightmare scenario for the latter - to risk their "multimillion transport investment vehicle" and only source of income to someone pushed through by AA is not an option - it will not happen, they would rather close down the business and do something else.
As closing note I firmly believe there is a way for all of us, maybe not as SAA pilots - aviation makes this big planet smaller... the demand for pilots will increase substancially across the globe - if they don't mess up the whole OIL-Issue in the Middle-East - this is a far more threatening and really worries me, because if hell breaks loose in Iran - we will all be affected - you can consider becoming Captain of a solar-sailingship but that is a topic for another thread...
AA is wrong as it is undemocratic and does not provide equal opportunity for all populations - period. Not once was the presence of our large coloured, malay and indian community in our country mentioned - these are even more affected by AA as the white population.
It is also not correct for people to assume that black=poor.
I myself and many others I know, have gone and are still going through a lot of sacrifice to achieve a basic CPL - working like a dog in a nine to five job for years to realize the goal of flying professionally - flying 2-3 hours a month because the cost of living did not allow for more. But we do this because this is our passion and we live this dream. I accept this because I have started my aviation carreer relativly late (because it took time to jump into a salary group, where I could afford flying - it took studying a different field and aquiring a university degree...). I think things would have been different if there would have been other possibilities directly after school. The point is I am not moaning about this ! - but I do not understand why a black man should not have to go through the same thing? He will achieve his goal if he is serious and is passionate about what he is doing. The same opportunity of finacial aid programmes should apply for a young white kid, coloured kid or whatever his or her race may be, irrelative of percentages, as the individual is not then not merited for his/her personal abilities.
From another perspective I think AA is also not really fair for those it is meant for, as one might think it subjects them to a subtle but intense pressure to prove that they are really fit for those positions. In fact more than one of those that I have come across in training institutions (who over time have actually proven unfit
and suddenly dissappeared out of the scene and not paying up their outstanding accounts) have presented a dangerous flair of bold arrogance in their personalities to cover insecurities, namely of fear of being judged or making the wrong impression, instead of retaining a natural humble and modest attitude towards instructors and collegues and being human. We are not flying because we have to prove our egos. But SAA has CRM to sort that kind of stuff out... I have been around the GA scene in Cape Town - here I have personally not come across ANY black pilots - even in small business jets or turbo-props that belong to black businessmen - they have employed white pilots too. The only exeption I know of is Anglo American Corp. Mentioning the idea to forcefully employ black pilots especially for single pilot ops for charter companys creates a nightmare scenario for the latter - to risk their "multimillion transport investment vehicle" and only source of income to someone pushed through by AA is not an option - it will not happen, they would rather close down the business and do something else.
As closing note I firmly believe there is a way for all of us, maybe not as SAA pilots - aviation makes this big planet smaller... the demand for pilots will increase substancially across the globe - if they don't mess up the whole OIL-Issue in the Middle-East - this is a far more threatening and really worries me, because if hell breaks loose in Iran - we will all be affected - you can consider becoming Captain of a solar-sailingship but that is a topic for another thread...
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Bman if you think that JG1's post has arrogant undertones then it only reinforces his point! (that black people will never see it)
AA is not practical.
Here in Australia we have had a policy and continue to have a policy where in our government a large percentage of candidates have to be female.
They want to increases the female representation and that has led to some disastrous moves, A person was given the post based on what was between their legs! not their abilities.
The labour party still has this policy and look at what has happened to them, they have the numbers in their party and they have no talent and still cannot win government and they wonder why!
Hopefully SAA will continue to employ and train pilots on their capabilities not the colour of their skin!
AA is not practical.
Here in Australia we have had a policy and continue to have a policy where in our government a large percentage of candidates have to be female.
They want to increases the female representation and that has led to some disastrous moves, A person was given the post based on what was between their legs! not their abilities.
The labour party still has this policy and look at what has happened to them, they have the numbers in their party and they have no talent and still cannot win government and they wonder why!
Hopefully SAA will continue to employ and train pilots on their capabilities not the colour of their skin!
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I have yet to hear one person's alternative to AA. The only thing I have heard is maintain the status quo.
Also AA isn't ment to place unqualified people in places they shouldn't be. It is meant to take proactive steps act getting people previously deined access to jobs opportunities. The forementioned policy is called a Quota system and that certainly isn't "fair". But llife rarely ever is.
To all who have posted I really do appreciate the civility shown. It says alot about character. And the only reason I started in on this was because the debate seemed pretty one sided and I love SA! Just love it and I know why its painful for you to want to leave.
I also know what its like to be discriminated against, for real and as a culture. Now many might say that I have done well for myself as a pilot, but I would tell them it certainly had nothing to do with AA. You see cause in this biz we maybe hired for what ever reason (AA, cronyism, nepotism) but your peers will know if you can fly or not and shame on you if you can't.
To be honest I wish I could live in SA and earn a living.
Also AA isn't ment to place unqualified people in places they shouldn't be. It is meant to take proactive steps act getting people previously deined access to jobs opportunities. The forementioned policy is called a Quota system and that certainly isn't "fair". But llife rarely ever is.
To all who have posted I really do appreciate the civility shown. It says alot about character. And the only reason I started in on this was because the debate seemed pretty one sided and I love SA! Just love it and I know why its painful for you to want to leave.
I also know what its like to be discriminated against, for real and as a culture. Now many might say that I have done well for myself as a pilot, but I would tell them it certainly had nothing to do with AA. You see cause in this biz we maybe hired for what ever reason (AA, cronyism, nepotism) but your peers will know if you can fly or not and shame on you if you can't.
To be honest I wish I could live in SA and earn a living.
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bman0429, I salute you as the only black pilot (I am assuming you are) posting on this thread, for your honesty and understanding of our situation in this wonderful country. You have made some very valid points and your concern is indeed appreciated.
First let me say again that the post by JG1 was brilliant. If you read his first point you will see that he actually touched the nerve of this whole SAA AA issue. Also read point 11 again. Some of his points might lean towards the extreme side of things, but I think in general he wrote a very balanced post. Off course, you are welcome to disagree.
bman0429 you certainly have valid points regarding the miniral issue in Africa. I for one, fully agree with you that Europe and the USA have been exploiting Africa for decades. They have taken what they wanted and damn the rest. If they coudn't get what they wanted, they just destabilized the particular region and looted the place regardless. There are many examples of this, but we will leave that for another thread.
WOW, we are really digressing from the issue here!!!
"Can anyone give the numbers for the number of "fast tracked" AA Captains at SAA. Is this a real and present threat or an imagined one?"
I know of only 1 black pilot who jumped the queue...127 places that is. In a company with 800 pilots, that was a big jump! The circumstances around that issue is not realy important right now, so I will not elaborate. SAA put together a group to come up with a workable solution to address AA. I have heard that the group recently disintegrated because they could not agree on certain issues. Pity!! Personally I think some of us are crying wolf too soon with regards to fast tracking. SAA just became a full member to Star Alliance who prescribe certain conditions. It is in the interest of SAA to adhere to these conditions. It is also in the interest of the whole STAR network to ensure SAA does.
"I have yet to hear one person's alternative to AA. The only thing I have heard is maintain the status quo."
There is, in my opinion, only one solution to AA in aviation. DO NOT COMPROMISE SAFETY. If you are suitable for the job, regardless your skin colour, you must get it. That is the bottom line. You can NOT fast track people in this industry, or any other where lives are at stake.
First let me say again that the post by JG1 was brilliant. If you read his first point you will see that he actually touched the nerve of this whole SAA AA issue. Also read point 11 again. Some of his points might lean towards the extreme side of things, but I think in general he wrote a very balanced post. Off course, you are welcome to disagree.
bman0429 you certainly have valid points regarding the miniral issue in Africa. I for one, fully agree with you that Europe and the USA have been exploiting Africa for decades. They have taken what they wanted and damn the rest. If they coudn't get what they wanted, they just destabilized the particular region and looted the place regardless. There are many examples of this, but we will leave that for another thread.
WOW, we are really digressing from the issue here!!!
"Can anyone give the numbers for the number of "fast tracked" AA Captains at SAA. Is this a real and present threat or an imagined one?"
I know of only 1 black pilot who jumped the queue...127 places that is. In a company with 800 pilots, that was a big jump! The circumstances around that issue is not realy important right now, so I will not elaborate. SAA put together a group to come up with a workable solution to address AA. I have heard that the group recently disintegrated because they could not agree on certain issues. Pity!! Personally I think some of us are crying wolf too soon with regards to fast tracking. SAA just became a full member to Star Alliance who prescribe certain conditions. It is in the interest of SAA to adhere to these conditions. It is also in the interest of the whole STAR network to ensure SAA does.
"I have yet to hear one person's alternative to AA. The only thing I have heard is maintain the status quo."
There is, in my opinion, only one solution to AA in aviation. DO NOT COMPROMISE SAFETY. If you are suitable for the job, regardless your skin colour, you must get it. That is the bottom line. You can NOT fast track people in this industry, or any other where lives are at stake.
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Thanks for the kind words, folks.
bman0429, I am sorry you found my post arrogant, I was intending to portray the actual situation as I see and experience it now. (As you may have gathered, from a white man's perspective).
You say that the white man has exploited Africa and Africans. I can see how blacks feel that way - they were living in a place rich in natural resources and the white man came and developed these resources. The white man, with his superior military technology, undeniable technical and organisational superiority and his policies also subjugated the black man, and repressed them.
There is however another perspective to this -
1. Exploitation of Resources - the blacks living in Africa before the white man arrived were not even aware of the existence of most of these resources and were completely unaware of their potential applications. The development of these resources and their associated improvements contributed to the betterment of society as a whole with advancements in engineering, medicine, agriculture, commerce, communications, transport infrastructure, etc. Without the 'exploitation' (which most would call 'development') of these natural resources, advantages such as higher life expectancies, better healthcare, and education would not have come about, and the natives would still be handicapped with high infant mortality rates, little or no healthcare, short life expectancies, subsistence agriculture, and very low standards of education, communication and transport.
2. Subjugation of the Natives - As I mentioned in my previous post, the way of life of the African tribes at the time of the white men's arrival was very warlike. African men were not firemen or bakers or artists, they were warriors. They were brought up to fight and kill the enemy, the other tribes. Little wonder that when the white men arrived, they were attacked by the native Africans. Unhappily for the Africans, their military prowess & technology was behind the state of the art at the time by several hundred centuries. So, yes, they were beaten, and subjugated. It could be argued that the victors were benevolent by not only sparing the vanquished's lives, but by incorporating them into society, and albeit in a limited way, affording them the advantages of developing circumstances.
So, to summarise the Black perspective - the white man came <and the black man attacked him, the white man won> and took the resources, and enslaved the black man.
The European perspective is that humankind lived in a time of exploration and development of the entire globe. In one part of the world (Europe) there existed the most advanced societies on the planet at the time, whose advanced development of their levels of agriculture, commerce, engineering and science led them to expand their frontiers.
Had they discovered more advanced societies in other lands, whose level of development exceeded theirs, in line with the development of all mankind certainly they would have learned from these societies and used their teachings to further European civilisation.
This was not the case. They encountered warlike peoples living in resource-rich lands with levels of developments several millenia behind their own. Consequently, and in line with the insuppressible development of humankind, they annexed these lands and sought to improve them to their state-of-the-art.
It was not exploitation, it was the natural progression of advancement of mankind. For the benefit of all. Note the quantum development leap of the blacks from the pastoral warriors of 4 generations ago to the 21st century jet-captains of today. Such a progression took the europeans perhaps a thousand generations. This 'exploitation' has been an undoubted super-boost to the black race, comparable to us meeting a more advanced extra-terrestrial race today.
On the subject of alternatives to AA, my view is that as much money as possible be spent on providing a free education of the highest quality, to tertiary level or beyond to the previously disadvantaged. This way we get highly qualified, competent individuals who can fulfil their own goals and satisfy the demands of society. Employing incompetents because of their skin colour is not the way forward.
bman0429, I am sorry you found my post arrogant, I was intending to portray the actual situation as I see and experience it now. (As you may have gathered, from a white man's perspective).
You say that the white man has exploited Africa and Africans. I can see how blacks feel that way - they were living in a place rich in natural resources and the white man came and developed these resources. The white man, with his superior military technology, undeniable technical and organisational superiority and his policies also subjugated the black man, and repressed them.
There is however another perspective to this -
1. Exploitation of Resources - the blacks living in Africa before the white man arrived were not even aware of the existence of most of these resources and were completely unaware of their potential applications. The development of these resources and their associated improvements contributed to the betterment of society as a whole with advancements in engineering, medicine, agriculture, commerce, communications, transport infrastructure, etc. Without the 'exploitation' (which most would call 'development') of these natural resources, advantages such as higher life expectancies, better healthcare, and education would not have come about, and the natives would still be handicapped with high infant mortality rates, little or no healthcare, short life expectancies, subsistence agriculture, and very low standards of education, communication and transport.
2. Subjugation of the Natives - As I mentioned in my previous post, the way of life of the African tribes at the time of the white men's arrival was very warlike. African men were not firemen or bakers or artists, they were warriors. They were brought up to fight and kill the enemy, the other tribes. Little wonder that when the white men arrived, they were attacked by the native Africans. Unhappily for the Africans, their military prowess & technology was behind the state of the art at the time by several hundred centuries. So, yes, they were beaten, and subjugated. It could be argued that the victors were benevolent by not only sparing the vanquished's lives, but by incorporating them into society, and albeit in a limited way, affording them the advantages of developing circumstances.
So, to summarise the Black perspective - the white man came <and the black man attacked him, the white man won> and took the resources, and enslaved the black man.
The European perspective is that humankind lived in a time of exploration and development of the entire globe. In one part of the world (Europe) there existed the most advanced societies on the planet at the time, whose advanced development of their levels of agriculture, commerce, engineering and science led them to expand their frontiers.
Had they discovered more advanced societies in other lands, whose level of development exceeded theirs, in line with the development of all mankind certainly they would have learned from these societies and used their teachings to further European civilisation.
This was not the case. They encountered warlike peoples living in resource-rich lands with levels of developments several millenia behind their own. Consequently, and in line with the insuppressible development of humankind, they annexed these lands and sought to improve them to their state-of-the-art.
It was not exploitation, it was the natural progression of advancement of mankind. For the benefit of all. Note the quantum development leap of the blacks from the pastoral warriors of 4 generations ago to the 21st century jet-captains of today. Such a progression took the europeans perhaps a thousand generations. This 'exploitation' has been an undoubted super-boost to the black race, comparable to us meeting a more advanced extra-terrestrial race today.
On the subject of alternatives to AA, my view is that as much money as possible be spent on providing a free education of the highest quality, to tertiary level or beyond to the previously disadvantaged. This way we get highly qualified, competent individuals who can fulfil their own goals and satisfy the demands of society. Employing incompetents because of their skin colour is not the way forward.
An Apology To The Black Race
From A White South African
10/27/2004 2:16:17 PM
Arthur Kemp
Commentary -- TO THE BLACK MAN FROM THE WHITE MAN:
We apologize for giving you doctors and free medical care, as a result of which you have been able to survive plagues and catastrophes and grow in numbers;
We apologize for teaching you to read and write, and for building you thousands of schools which we have repaired after you vandalized them and burned them down, After all, if you could not read how could you have learned the words of Karl Marx, Mao Tse_tung, and others who taught you how evil we are and how oppressed you are?
We apologize for building factories and highways and buildings that gave you employment;
We apologize for developing farms which to this day feed the bulk of Africa;
We apologize for providing you with warm clothing made of fabric instead of leaving you wearing the animal skins which you wore before our arrival;
We apologize for taking minerals from the earth which you neither used, nor wanted, nor even knew were there;
We apologize for those among us who have established welfare organizations and have devoted their entire life towards making life richer and better for your people;
We apologize that we have built roads and railroad tracks between towns and cities which you now use every day without thinking;
We apologize for paying the lion's share of taxation while spending less on ourselves than on you;
We apologize for giving you law and order and a strong central government which prevented your own warrior nations like the Zulu and the Matabele from slaughtering black people by the hundreds of thousands as they did year in and year out before we came;
We apologize for teaching you the English language which has opened to you the entire world of European thought, culture, and commerce;
For all these sins we humbly beg forgiveness, and if you will only accept our apology we will be happy to take back all of the above evil and horrible things we have done to you and return to our European homeland.
From A White South African
10/27/2004 2:16:17 PM
Arthur Kemp
Commentary -- TO THE BLACK MAN FROM THE WHITE MAN:
We apologize for giving you doctors and free medical care, as a result of which you have been able to survive plagues and catastrophes and grow in numbers;
We apologize for teaching you to read and write, and for building you thousands of schools which we have repaired after you vandalized them and burned them down, After all, if you could not read how could you have learned the words of Karl Marx, Mao Tse_tung, and others who taught you how evil we are and how oppressed you are?
We apologize for building factories and highways and buildings that gave you employment;
We apologize for developing farms which to this day feed the bulk of Africa;
We apologize for providing you with warm clothing made of fabric instead of leaving you wearing the animal skins which you wore before our arrival;
We apologize for taking minerals from the earth which you neither used, nor wanted, nor even knew were there;
We apologize for those among us who have established welfare organizations and have devoted their entire life towards making life richer and better for your people;
We apologize that we have built roads and railroad tracks between towns and cities which you now use every day without thinking;
We apologize for paying the lion's share of taxation while spending less on ourselves than on you;
We apologize for giving you law and order and a strong central government which prevented your own warrior nations like the Zulu and the Matabele from slaughtering black people by the hundreds of thousands as they did year in and year out before we came;
We apologize for teaching you the English language which has opened to you the entire world of European thought, culture, and commerce;
For all these sins we humbly beg forgiveness, and if you will only accept our apology we will be happy to take back all of the above evil and horrible things we have done to you and return to our European homeland.
Está servira para distraerle.
As interesting as it might be to some - nothing. But then there is some thread running on about religion on Pprune and that has about as much to do with aviation as the aeodynamics of a flapping angel.
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Well 4HP, I'm glad your not the only one that spotted that, it really has digressed from aviation related issues to constant racial insults. I think this issue is starting to get a little bit old now and seems to be very divisive.
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I must admit that some post did well digress from the issue. However, I think that it is in some ways good to discuss different viewpoints, even if we do digress a bit. I think it might help us to understand each other a bit better.
BUT.............THERE IS NO PLACE HERE FOR RACIAL SLURS!!
If it continues, I am all for HP4 to bin this thread.
If I in any way offended someone, my apologies.
FWK
BUT.............THERE IS NO PLACE HERE FOR RACIAL SLURS!!
If it continues, I am all for HP4 to bin this thread.
If I in any way offended someone, my apologies.
FWK
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Which racial slurs are you talking about FWK? I happen to think JG1 wrote a brilliant post, bman0429 then wrote an equally good reply which was also well thought out and gave us his side of things, JG1 then replied with another brilliant post (hard to dispute the facts he stated in his second post).
Where is the problem? maybe the way to solving our problems in SA are to talk about these things and get them out in the open, we are all so scared of offending anyone that nobody says anything and we all harbour deep resentment against eachother.
Well done JG1 and bman0429. 4HP why not let the vote decide the fate of this thread, like it has the fate of SA?
Where is the problem? maybe the way to solving our problems in SA are to talk about these things and get them out in the open, we are all so scared of offending anyone that nobody says anything and we all harbour deep resentment against eachother.
Well done JG1 and bman0429. 4HP why not let the vote decide the fate of this thread, like it has the fate of SA?
Last edited by fluffyfan; 11th May 2006 at 20:22.
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bman0429, you ask what the alternatives to AA are, as I said in a earlier post....there are non....AA is neccessary in order to get this country to where it needs to be (yes SAA and the rest of the airlines need AA), lets just hope its done in a well thought out sane manner, unlike the land redistrubution was done in Zimbabwe.
And sorry one more point, you seem to imply that the worlds problems are all due to the white man imposing colonial boundries, yes that has caused problems, but by no stretch of the imagination was the world a nice peaceful place before the white man came along, just ask Chaka Zulu, or Gengis Khan, they murdered hundreds of thousand as did the Spanish Inquisition and the holocaust. We know very little about African history because it was not recorded, but I think we can assume it was as bloody as the rest of the worlds.
And sorry one more point, you seem to imply that the worlds problems are all due to the white man imposing colonial boundries, yes that has caused problems, but by no stretch of the imagination was the world a nice peaceful place before the white man came along, just ask Chaka Zulu, or Gengis Khan, they murdered hundreds of thousand as did the Spanish Inquisition and the holocaust. We know very little about African history because it was not recorded, but I think we can assume it was as bloody as the rest of the worlds.