View Poll Results: Bin this thread now or wait for it to go the way of all the other racial tripe? 4HP
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SAA Flight-Deck Affirmative Action
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why is it that whenever someone makes a comment, on blacks its racist yet that malakka tutu can say the most disgusting things about whites and its not racist.
By the way I'm not south African,but I have been there enough to see what is going on!
The place is fantastic but its going down the same path as Zim, what a damm shame.
this what has happened
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/02/wo...rtner=homepage
By the way I'm not south African,but I have been there enough to see what is going on!
The place is fantastic but its going down the same path as Zim, what a damm shame.
this what has happened
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/02/wo...rtner=homepage
Last edited by crew-use-only; 2nd May 2006 at 14:02.
The goverment is planning to attain a 70% black, 30% other ratio in the airline, across the board at every level
If as mentioned that there are alot of black pilots in training then naturally they will filter into the system with time. Sounds like the government wants to appeal to the masses to stay in power and hijacking aviation in its wake..
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You guys kill me!
Can someone tell me how many black pilots are currently flying for SAA. I spent nearly eight hrs at Jo'berg and saw zero. Of this number that you come up with how many are Capts?
How many of you were complaining about how unfair things were 20 years ago? Not a one I'll bet! Its funny fair is only fair when you're in the seat of power.
10+ years of AA ain't gonna fix a century or so of systematic rascist practices, but its a start.
Do you honestly think "oh aparthied is over bygones. let's all compete on merit" is fair when the "indigenous" populace couldn't even hold jobs that would allow them or their children access to the very things you take for granted.
No you've had your leg up and you'd like to keep it that way. No one can blame you, but that certainly does make you a bit racist.
Can someone tell me how many black pilots are currently flying for SAA. I spent nearly eight hrs at Jo'berg and saw zero. Of this number that you come up with how many are Capts?
How many of you were complaining about how unfair things were 20 years ago? Not a one I'll bet! Its funny fair is only fair when you're in the seat of power.
10+ years of AA ain't gonna fix a century or so of systematic rascist practices, but its a start.
Do you honestly think "oh aparthied is over bygones. let's all compete on merit" is fair when the "indigenous" populace couldn't even hold jobs that would allow them or their children access to the very things you take for granted.
No you've had your leg up and you'd like to keep it that way. No one can blame you, but that certainly does make you a bit racist.
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Originally Posted by bman0429
You guys kill me!
Can someone tell me how many black pilots are currently flying for SAA. I spent nearly eight hrs at Jo'berg and saw zero. Of this number that you come up with how many are Capts?
How many of you were complaining about how unfair things were 20 years ago? Not a one I'll bet! Its funny fair is only fair when you're in the seat of power.
10+ years of AA ain't gonna fix a century or so of systematic rascist practices, but its a start.
Do you honestly think "oh aparthied is over bygones. let's all compete on merit" is fair when the "indigenous" populace couldn't even hold jobs that would allow them or their children access to the very things you take for granted.
No you've had your leg up and you'd like to keep it that way. No one can blame you, but that certainly does make you a bit racist.
Can someone tell me how many black pilots are currently flying for SAA. I spent nearly eight hrs at Jo'berg and saw zero. Of this number that you come up with how many are Capts?
How many of you were complaining about how unfair things were 20 years ago? Not a one I'll bet! Its funny fair is only fair when you're in the seat of power.
10+ years of AA ain't gonna fix a century or so of systematic rascist practices, but its a start.
Do you honestly think "oh aparthied is over bygones. let's all compete on merit" is fair when the "indigenous" populace couldn't even hold jobs that would allow them or their children access to the very things you take for granted.
No you've had your leg up and you'd like to keep it that way. No one can blame you, but that certainly does make you a bit racist.
Seat of power, my ass. I don't hold anything. I come very much second to any black person trying to get into SAA. And of course there's the ultimate currency, the black female. Sort of like four aces in poker - beats anything. Don't give me 'seat of power' rubbish quotes....who do you think I am? If you think my skin colour gives me anything but disadvantage nowadays, you're clueless.
So, once again: My generation had nothing to do with apartheid, but we get shafted by the current policies. Those who did benefit, are about to retire with 1 mil + p.a. retirements. If you had thought about it for more than a millisecond, you would see why we (or I, at the very least) complain.
Edit: I see you give your location as New Orleans. I assume then, that you haven't experienced the full reality of the situation here, unlike many here whose livelyhoods are directly affected.
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Originally Posted by Shrike200
Slow down. 20 years ago I was about ten years old. How much complaining did you expect me to do? Think about it for a second....should I have been toting an AK then, or blowing up bars or something?
Seat of power, my ass. I don't hold anything. I come very much second to any black person trying to get into SAA. And of course there's the ultimate currency, the black female. Sort of like four aces in poker - beats anything. Don't give me 'seat of power' rubbish quotes....who do you think I am? If you think my skin colour gives me anything but disadvantage nowadays, you're clueless.
So, once again: My generation had nothing to do with apartheid, but we get shafted by the current policies. Those who did benefit, are about to retire with 1 mil + p.a. retirements. If you had thought about it for more than a millisecond, you would see why we (or I, at the very least) complain.
Edit: I see you give your location as New Orleans. I assume then, that you haven't experienced the full reality of the situation here, unlike many here whose livelyhoods are directly affected.
Seat of power, my ass. I don't hold anything. I come very much second to any black person trying to get into SAA. And of course there's the ultimate currency, the black female. Sort of like four aces in poker - beats anything. Don't give me 'seat of power' rubbish quotes....who do you think I am? If you think my skin colour gives me anything but disadvantage nowadays, you're clueless.
So, once again: My generation had nothing to do with apartheid, but we get shafted by the current policies. Those who did benefit, are about to retire with 1 mil + p.a. retirements. If you had thought about it for more than a millisecond, you would see why we (or I, at the very least) complain.
Edit: I see you give your location as New Orleans. I assume then, that you haven't experienced the full reality of the situation here, unlike many here whose livelyhoods are directly affected.
If you're mad and want to blame someone blame those who came before you who were complicit in creating the previous system. It was they who made it so. You are having to deal with the aftermath.
The funny thing is I know several south african pilots working abroad. I have never run across one who was black anywhere. I suppose that's just a coincidence!?
As an aside I've spent time in SA and with South Africans and I do not live in New Orleans.
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"The funny thing is I know several south african pilots working abroad. I have never run across one who was black anywhere. I suppose that's just a coincidence!?"
Why would a black pilot go work overseas? It's presented to him on a silver platter at home
Why would a black pilot go work overseas? It's presented to him on a silver platter at home
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Originally Posted by FlingWingKing
What is the ratio of black to white pilots in the USA? No sinister motive posing this question, genuinly want to get the facts.
Its so infurating to have to listen to white males complain about not having any jobs or opportunities. In the states there has never been a black CEO at an airline or a black POTUS. They occupy most of the top jobs. I think the real complaint with white males anywhere tends to be when they are no longer able to hold total domination over anything the complaining begins.
Hell wait till open skies hits and the jobs go to the lowest bidders from China and India the we're all screwed!!
divinehover
I have never run across a black pilot in south africa either. In the airport or on an SAA flight.
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I have never run across a black pilot in south africa either. In the airport or on an SAA flight.[/QUOTE]
I guess that says it all then, you obviously havent been in South Africa very much, if at all
I guess that says it all then, you obviously havent been in South Africa very much, if at all
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[quote=Shrike200]
Well said Shrike200. All those in promoting the AA policies are the same individuals who benefited from apartheid.
There are plenty of jobs overseas, you just have to do what's necessary to get ahead without competing with the "royal game".
Good luck
Well said Shrike200. All those in promoting the AA policies are the same individuals who benefited from apartheid.
There are plenty of jobs overseas, you just have to do what's necessary to get ahead without competing with the "royal game".
Good luck
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I believe at SAA of the 800 pilots, about 80-90 are non-white. They have at least 2 black captains I know of, and a couple close to command. Considering it can take anything between 12-17 years to get command at SAA, and the country being "free" for only 12 years, the figures do not look too bad. A lot of cadetts are coming through the line as well, Flying for SA Express and SA Airlink, so in due course they should get into SAA and ultimately command.
I do not know this for a fact, but I believe in South Africa about 5% of pilots with commercial licences are black. 75% of the population are black, so the figures dont make sense.
You say the first commercial black pilot in the USA was hired in the 70's. Surely with a 10-15% black population at least 10% of the commercial pilots should be black. Any idea why the figures dont make mathematical sense?
Why is it that airlines like Emirats, Quatar, Cathy, Singapour, Dragon, Mauritius, Kenya, to name but a few, have to employ predominantly white expats to fly their aircraft? Is'nt it perhaps because flying appeals more to whites that it does to other skin colours? AND PLEASE, I MEAN THIS IN NO WAY TO BE A RACIST STATEMENT. It is purely an observation. By saying this I do not say flying does not appeal to non-whites and that flying is a white man's job. What I am saying is that flying attract (as a career,hobby,passion) more whites than non-whites. Not to say that it doesn't attract non-whites.
This is just my penny's worth, and may I reiterate that I in no way intended this post to have a racist undertone. I am just trying, like all of us, to make sense of this and to understand the issue better. I do not think the issue has anything to do with skin colour, i think it has to do with power.
Fly safe
I do not know this for a fact, but I believe in South Africa about 5% of pilots with commercial licences are black. 75% of the population are black, so the figures dont make sense.
You say the first commercial black pilot in the USA was hired in the 70's. Surely with a 10-15% black population at least 10% of the commercial pilots should be black. Any idea why the figures dont make mathematical sense?
Why is it that airlines like Emirats, Quatar, Cathy, Singapour, Dragon, Mauritius, Kenya, to name but a few, have to employ predominantly white expats to fly their aircraft? Is'nt it perhaps because flying appeals more to whites that it does to other skin colours? AND PLEASE, I MEAN THIS IN NO WAY TO BE A RACIST STATEMENT. It is purely an observation. By saying this I do not say flying does not appeal to non-whites and that flying is a white man's job. What I am saying is that flying attract (as a career,hobby,passion) more whites than non-whites. Not to say that it doesn't attract non-whites.
This is just my penny's worth, and may I reiterate that I in no way intended this post to have a racist undertone. I am just trying, like all of us, to make sense of this and to understand the issue better. I do not think the issue has anything to do with skin colour, i think it has to do with power.
Fly safe
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Originally Posted by FlingWingKing
I believe at SAA of the 800 pilots, about 80-90 are non-white. They have at least 2 black captains I know of, and a couple close to command. Considering it can take anything between 12-17 years to get command at SAA, and the country being "free" for only 12 years, the figures do not look too bad. A lot of cadetts are coming through the line as well, Flying for SA Express and SA Airlink, so in due course they should get into SAA and ultimately command.
I do not know this for a fact, but I believe in South Africa about 5% of pilots with commercial licences are black. 75% of the population are black, so the figures dont make sense.
You say the first commercial black pilot in the USA was hired in the 70's. Surely with a 10-15% black population at least 10% of the commercial pilots should be black. Any idea why the figures dont make mathematical sense?
Why is it that airlines like Emirats, Quatar, Cathy, Singapour, Dragon, Mauritius, Kenya, to name but a few, have to employ predominantly white expats to fly their aircraft? Is'nt it perhaps because flying appeals more to whites that it does to other skin colours? AND PLEASE, I MEAN THIS IN NO WAY TO BE A RACIST STATEMENT. It is purely an observation. By saying this I do not say flying does not appeal to non-whites and that flying is a white man's job. What I am saying is that flying attract (as a career,hobby,passion) more whites than non-whites. Not to say that it doesn't attract non-whites.
This is just my penny's worth, and may I reiterate that I in no way intended this post to have a racist undertone. I am just trying, like all of us, to make sense of this and to understand the issue better. I do not think the issue has anything to do with skin colour, i think it has to do with power.
Fly safe
I do not know this for a fact, but I believe in South Africa about 5% of pilots with commercial licences are black. 75% of the population are black, so the figures dont make sense.
You say the first commercial black pilot in the USA was hired in the 70's. Surely with a 10-15% black population at least 10% of the commercial pilots should be black. Any idea why the figures dont make mathematical sense?
Why is it that airlines like Emirats, Quatar, Cathy, Singapour, Dragon, Mauritius, Kenya, to name but a few, have to employ predominantly white expats to fly their aircraft? Is'nt it perhaps because flying appeals more to whites that it does to other skin colours? AND PLEASE, I MEAN THIS IN NO WAY TO BE A RACIST STATEMENT. It is purely an observation. By saying this I do not say flying does not appeal to non-whites and that flying is a white man's job. What I am saying is that flying attract (as a career,hobby,passion) more whites than non-whites. Not to say that it doesn't attract non-whites.
This is just my penny's worth, and may I reiterate that I in no way intended this post to have a racist undertone. I am just trying, like all of us, to make sense of this and to understand the issue better. I do not think the issue has anything to do with skin colour, i think it has to do with power.
Fly safe
Black pilots in the states don't reflect the same ratio as their proportion in the populace because of two reason I believe:
The first is years of discrimnatory practices by whites. Its hard to argue against this point with any validity.
The second is lack of participation of previous generations (most probably precipitated by the first. You see lack of resources and lack of exposure will limit anyones career outlook.
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Originally Posted by 2high2fly
bman0429:
The difference between 12 years of freedom and 30 years of freedom as correlated between South Africa and the Deep South in the States is very slight. In your own back yard, there were beatings and killings, segregation based upon creed, impoverishment of non-whites, etc. The only difference is that South Africa labelled this as Apartheid - you didn't. I am contracted in Australia at the moment, and the same goes here. Australia tried to breed out the Abo's, culled and sterilised these indigenous folk. As in the case of the States, the only difference is that the Aussies have not labelled racism as apartheid, but it exists here too. Now, as you are so well-travelled and of such esteemed opinion, tell me all about the affirmative action that was implemented in either your Southern States, or Australia? After all, it was your forefathers who implemented and and administered these atrocities, and even if you were from the Northen United States, your previous generations still stood idly by and chose to ignore the on-goings by their fellow US citizens down South. Now tell me, who's the pot calling the kettle black?
I am so tired of ignorant and ill-informed foreigners passing judgement on our generation of South Africans. And yes, I have always been opposed to the previous racist authority which dominated South Africa. After all, we could have been a mini Super-power had they not cocked it up by installing Apartheid. Nevertheless, when you constantly have to fight your way through the system to gain an equal footing in the work-place, then it does become too much after a while.
Get off your bloody high horse and stop pointing fingers. That's all.
The difference between 12 years of freedom and 30 years of freedom as correlated between South Africa and the Deep South in the States is very slight. In your own back yard, there were beatings and killings, segregation based upon creed, impoverishment of non-whites, etc. The only difference is that South Africa labelled this as Apartheid - you didn't. I am contracted in Australia at the moment, and the same goes here. Australia tried to breed out the Abo's, culled and sterilised these indigenous folk. As in the case of the States, the only difference is that the Aussies have not labelled racism as apartheid, but it exists here too. Now, as you are so well-travelled and of such esteemed opinion, tell me all about the affirmative action that was implemented in either your Southern States, or Australia? After all, it was your forefathers who implemented and and administered these atrocities, and even if you were from the Northen United States, your previous generations still stood idly by and chose to ignore the on-goings by their fellow US citizens down South. Now tell me, who's the pot calling the kettle black?
I am so tired of ignorant and ill-informed foreigners passing judgement on our generation of South Africans. And yes, I have always been opposed to the previous racist authority which dominated South Africa. After all, we could have been a mini Super-power had they not cocked it up by installing Apartheid. Nevertheless, when you constantly have to fight your way through the system to gain an equal footing in the work-place, then it does become too much after a while.
Get off your bloody high horse and stop pointing fingers. That's all.
I am intimately aquainted with the racism in the USA (all regions)! I was addressing those SAs who would whine and complain about AA. As I said before it ain't fair, but neither was aparthied. Which is/was more unfair?
Your point about 12 years of freedom vs 30 (more like 75+ yrs of "freedom") is apples and oranges. Remember that they are the majority populace and they were there first and they got hosed because they didn't look like the people who are complaining today. They were stipped of their natural place in the hirearchy as the majority citizens. Blacks in the states were always a minority group and had to appeal to higher moral code to which the country was founded upon.
I dunno know what's worse being takin from your home and forced into slavery or being a slave in your own home?
I'm not saying who's better or who's worse. I have travelled a bit and read a bit.
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"I have travelled a bit and read a bit" ...although I see some of your country folk need to read and travel more. No offense is intended but is funny 
http://www.vincenot.net/connerie/OnT...OfAmerica3.wmv
http://www.vincenot.net/connerie/OnT...OfAmerica3.wmv
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Oh where is Afriaviation??
Would have loved to hear some of his comments!!!
I am a white male who, probably in some eyes, have benefitted from our previous regime. I had opportunities in live, none of which were handed to me on a silver platter. Some opportunies presented itself and some I had to go look for. Nevertheless, had I not recognised those opportunities I would not have achived my goals.
I am thankfull for this.
What happened pre 1994 in South Africa is not unique. Since the beginning of time some groups were dominated by others. That is just a fact of live. Fair or not it happened and will happen again untill the end of time.
Although sitting here in my study, having achieved my goals, who some may argue was because i was advantaged by the previous regime, I suppose to expect the disadvantaged majority to just forgive and forget is too much to expect and too arrogant to ask.
However, although many wrongs were done, as long as we hold on to the past, we will forever be slaves of it. We will never be free to move forward and heal ourselves from the wrongs done by and to us.
Affimative action is something that us whities must accept and deal with. What the non-whites must accept and deal with, is that certain things take time. It takes time to get the experience to be a good commander. Anyone can learn the skills to "drive" an airplane, but good judgement and sound decision making is something that can only be learned with time, exposure and other peoples mistakes. To expect to be given a flying job carrying 100's of passengers just because of the colour of your skin is a very dangerous attitude.
Like they say, Rome wasn't build in one day....but it was destroyed in a couple. Inexperienced pilots MUST be given time to gain the neccessary experience to become good pilots...not just pilots. Getting blacks into the cockpit and getting the figures right will be achieved, but it must not be done with inexperienced pilots just to windowdress.
It sometimesis difficult for me to accept that the roles in my country are reversed, but I am working hard at it. We all want to be successful (or so I believe). Everybody wants to be proud of what they achieved by themselves...not what was given to them. This is especially true with pilots. We are very competative and want to be the best.
Let us not allow the politicians to make us enemies. We pilots, black and white, share the same things......the passion, thrill, excitement and ultimate satisfaction from flight.
Oh I have slipped the surely bonds of earth
and danced the skies on laughter silvered wings.
Sunward I've climbed and joined the tumbling mirth of sun split clouds
and done a hundred things you have not dreamed of,
wheeled and soared and swung high in the sunlit silence.
Hovering there I've chased the shouting wind aloft
and flung my eager craft through footless halls of air.
Up up the long delirious burning blue,
I've topped the wind swept heights with easy grace
where neither lark nor eagle flew.
And there with silent lifting mind
I've trod the high untrespassed sanctity of space
Put out my hand and touched the face of God.
I am a white male who, probably in some eyes, have benefitted from our previous regime. I had opportunities in live, none of which were handed to me on a silver platter. Some opportunies presented itself and some I had to go look for. Nevertheless, had I not recognised those opportunities I would not have achived my goals.
I am thankfull for this.
What happened pre 1994 in South Africa is not unique. Since the beginning of time some groups were dominated by others. That is just a fact of live. Fair or not it happened and will happen again untill the end of time.
Although sitting here in my study, having achieved my goals, who some may argue was because i was advantaged by the previous regime, I suppose to expect the disadvantaged majority to just forgive and forget is too much to expect and too arrogant to ask.
However, although many wrongs were done, as long as we hold on to the past, we will forever be slaves of it. We will never be free to move forward and heal ourselves from the wrongs done by and to us.
Affimative action is something that us whities must accept and deal with. What the non-whites must accept and deal with, is that certain things take time. It takes time to get the experience to be a good commander. Anyone can learn the skills to "drive" an airplane, but good judgement and sound decision making is something that can only be learned with time, exposure and other peoples mistakes. To expect to be given a flying job carrying 100's of passengers just because of the colour of your skin is a very dangerous attitude.
Like they say, Rome wasn't build in one day....but it was destroyed in a couple. Inexperienced pilots MUST be given time to gain the neccessary experience to become good pilots...not just pilots. Getting blacks into the cockpit and getting the figures right will be achieved, but it must not be done with inexperienced pilots just to windowdress.
It sometimesis difficult for me to accept that the roles in my country are reversed, but I am working hard at it. We all want to be successful (or so I believe). Everybody wants to be proud of what they achieved by themselves...not what was given to them. This is especially true with pilots. We are very competative and want to be the best.
Let us not allow the politicians to make us enemies. We pilots, black and white, share the same things......the passion, thrill, excitement and ultimate satisfaction from flight.
Oh I have slipped the surely bonds of earth
and danced the skies on laughter silvered wings.
Sunward I've climbed and joined the tumbling mirth of sun split clouds
and done a hundred things you have not dreamed of,
wheeled and soared and swung high in the sunlit silence.
Hovering there I've chased the shouting wind aloft
and flung my eager craft through footless halls of air.
Up up the long delirious burning blue,
I've topped the wind swept heights with easy grace
where neither lark nor eagle flew.
And there with silent lifting mind
I've trod the high untrespassed sanctity of space
Put out my hand and touched the face of God.
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Originally Posted by 34'
"I have travelled a bit and read a bit" ...although I see some of your country folk need to read and travel more. No offense is intended but is funny
http://www.vincenot.net/connerie/OnT...OfAmerica3.wmv
http://www.vincenot.net/connerie/OnT...OfAmerica3.wmv
Shakin my head, but unsurprised. That is certainly the attitude of many Americans. Invade em, blow em up, set em free, uh where is that again?! Ignorance is bliss in the ole U.S. of A.!
The previous post was well stated and thoughtful. It is really indicative of where peoples heads should be at in regards to the sins of the past!