SAA Flight-Deck Affirmative Action

[shikubaby]

This should end it!!!!

Before anyone of you goes running his mouth (or probably his fingers for those who must be that particular!!!) again, I believe he (or she for that matter) should read the fantastic post by FLYWINGKING. It exhibits wisdom and the only attitude that will benefit us all....

[Treetopflyer]

Bin this thread now or wait for it to go the way of all the other racial tripe? 4HP

Nice to see that this thread will be the first NOT to go that way... thanks to enlightened posts like FlingWingKing's...

[4HolerPoler]

I agree; remarkably lunatic free thread. The opinion is almost 75% in favor of free speech - I'm closing the poll - carry on with the debate & thanks for keeping it nice.

4HP

[B Sousa]

4hp, you speak too soon......... "I agree; remarkably lunatic free thread."

A beautiful poetic song from FlingWingKing. "enlightened" I think someone mentioned. "Let us not allow the politicians to make us enemies. We pilots, black and white, share the same things......the passion, thrill, excitement and ultimate satisfaction from flight."
Let us not allow.....?? You no longer have a choice.
In the states I always hear that your vote really counts. Then I vote for some moron, as many do, and he does what he wants, not what the public has asked him to do...I think its evident in the polls today. In SA, I believe votes are just something to make things look legitimate.
So should FWKs essay end with.....Now I will stick my head back in the sand and pretend that things will soon get better.....If I dont get carjacked between the airport and home.

" dunno know what's worse being takin from your home and forced into slavery or being a slave in your own home?"
Seems to be the situation for many in SA today....and yes, in many parts of major U.S. cities... Not as evident in the Cape as it is elsewhere, but its bound to move south.

[3rdBogey]

Lunatic Free?

I have a problem with AA.
Many knowledgeable black people from the USA have in the past said: "AA is not a solution, and won't help the previously disadvantaged group. It undermines their feeling of self worth."
If there are sufficient vacancies to select suitably qualified people for a particular activity, then I would go along with AA. BUT, that is NOT the case with the flight deck of airliners in SA.
However, political correctness MUST prevail, not so? One must remember, in the interest of peers eyes,(who will be black in SA) which will be trained on us as to what we say publicly- this will affect our career’s future....... Individually.
If you look at the article about Zimbabwe quoted above, we all wander why this happens..... (Not all)--- Remember, Bob has been VOTED into power, and voted in again time and time again! If the voting population did NOT put a cross next to his name, he would not be there today.
In SA, like many other places in the whole world today, it's PAY BACK TIME!!!
After 350 odd years of the white skinned man being "in charge", it's now "OUR TURN".
I don't mind the previously disadvantaged group running the show, but, sometimes some activities CANNOT be fast-tracked!!!
You agree with fast-tracking on the flight-deck, because it's the only way to save your own position currently.
Would you allow a previously disadvantaged white skinned person living in wherever, who now has been selected as an example of "Brain Surgeon", newly qualified, who did not initially pass his exams and was helped over and over again to pass, to operate on your child's brain??
Remember, if EVER something goes wrong with these AA pilots involved, THEY will never be at fault for what has happened.
If you are black in SA today, it is wonderful. But I still have a problem with fast-tracking people past others, just for the sake of QUOTAS, now!!
When there is more than one candidate applying for a position on the flight deck, and both or all are suitably/correctly qualified, then by all means select the previously disadvantaged majority individual.
By the way, will my children be allowed to call themselves "previously disadvantaged" when they grow up?? Or can only non whites use that angle?
The whole skin colour thing disgusts me to start with. Because, did we not ALL start out together in Africa. One place where we all come from? Now suddenly skin colour IS an issue, not so? So, ARE WE THEN DIFFERENT after all?
In passing, I remember a few years back now, some SAA pilots, cadets I think, (about 5 or so) came forward and said they had cheated at their exams. Later they simply rescinded this and denied it. I always wandered why a group of people would say they have done something wrong of that caliber, then say, "NO, we were joking". What ever came of that issue? Or, must we once again <"Don't go there">????

[FlingWingKing]

Dont cry WOLF too soon

"With respect to all the issues around the new SAA, accelerated command etc, I would like to know:
The goverment is planning to attain a 70% black, 30% other ratio in the airline, across the board at every level, I hear.....(remember this is a rumour network)."

Just to refresh your memories, this is what was said right at the beginning of this thread. We dont know for sure whether this is FACT....we assume it is and off course we feel threatended.

I would like to know where government is going to find the black pilots to fill the front 2 seats on SAA aircraft. Maybe I am living in the dark here in Cape Town (as a matter of fact we did a couple of months ago thanx to government's insight into the future demand for electricity), but I do not see enough black pilots being trained to achieve the said figures. If anyone can enlighten me with some facts I would be very appreciative. I once asked our "very esteemed" x-colleague Afriaviation (once again, a belated thank you to 4HP for ridding us of him) to give us figures with regards to representivity of black pilots in SA aviation....his answer....150 out of 3000 CPL pilots are black!!! Can anyone confirm the truth of that statement?

So dont cry wolf too soon............

B Sousa, it is not a question of sticking one's head in the sand and pretend that things will be better soon. It is a question of accepting our situation and finding a compromise that will suit us best. Whether it is to stick around and ride the wave, hoping not to get smashed to pieces in the process, or the other extreme, to go look for a better surfing spot somewhere else. AA is, unfortuanatly for us whities, here to stay. Government made it law. Whether you voted for them or not. I am afraid a couple of white pilots are not going to persuade them otherwise.

I love this country.....Ja Ja, its sounds like a moerse clichè, but I do not want to go work somewhere else. And yes, I am perhaps a bit over optimistic about the future of us white pilots in this country. But I refuse to become negative and distraught, because then I might as well pack my bag and go.

Accelerating people into positions without the neccessary experience is WRONG. That we all agree with....and if there is a black pilot who disagree with me, then I say, "My friend, you are going to kill someone...change your attitude or get out of the flying game."

I want to see SAA, and for that matter South Africa, succeed because this is a great place to be.

Enough said. I have overstayed my welcome on this thread.

[porridge]

I wonder what will happen when they don’t find sufficient AA crews to come forward to fly the aircraft – will they recruit ex-pats as has happened with ATC on contracts to fill the positions rather than give them to the locals?
Everyday I am up in the airways here in the UK I hear the familiar SA accent on the RT, be it Ryanair, Easyjet or those who are on training flights for their JAA IRT’s. Personally I’ve been in progress with 3 SA licence conversions to JAA licenses in the past 3 months or so.
Wouldn’t it be ironic if these experienced ex-Saffers don’t end back home on contracts one day in the future?
The wheel always turns, sometimes you’re on the top of the rotation, sometimes on the bottom; it’s just a matter of time!

[B Sousa]

"It is a question of accepting our situation and finding a compromise that will suit us best. Whether it is to stick around and ride the wave, hoping not to get smashed to pieces in the process, or the other extreme, to go look for a better surfing spot somewhere else. "

Makes a bit more sense now.....You also must consider the Airline industry today is in a real turmoil. For those who don't follow things much let me say many Airline types in the states have lost entire retirement savings plans and are really devastated as they near the end of their careers. That has to follow down to SA.
If your going to stick around, your also going to have to find a place to stuff your money if you want to have something at the other end. It would be very unpleasant to be retired and have nothing to live on in SA. I also think some parts of SA are a great place to retire if you do have something.

"Accelerating people into positions without the neccessary experience is WRONG"
A real key to the failure of AA in many places, even more so in SA... Folks go from the Bush to CEO in the stroke of a pen.....The damage has been done in lots of areas, in Avaition as some others it an be fatal to many.......Med School ??.. eish!!!!.

[bman0429]

I agree that placing people in safety sensitive positions when they aren't capable is a bad idea, but that's not what we are talking about.

AA isn't just some policy put in place to penalize whites. It is about redressing a REAL grievences!

That's the part that demands consideration and debate! So often people want to talk about why a policy is unfair to them personally. As a policy is AA effective?! In some ways yes. It does what is was intened to do. In some ways no, but what is the alternative? Most of the unaffected don't care.

As to the unprepared arguement all around the world there are examples of pilots who are relatively "inexperienced" being placed in the cockpit of airplanes. From cadet programs in countries with no developed GA base to military pilots flying around multimillion dollar jets with massive destructive capabilities there are numerous examples.

[FlingWingKing]

Okay, I couldnt resist......

"As to the unprepared arguement all around the world there are examples of pilots who are relatively "inexperienced" being placed in the cockpit of airplanes. From cadet programs in countries with no developed GA base to military pilots flying around multimillion dollar jets with massive destructive capabilities there are numerous examples."

There is a huge difference in putting a relatively "inexperienced" cadet co-pilot in the cockpit with an experienced captain. And that is the real issue here. Accelerating inexperienced co-pilots to command just to get the figures right might end in disaster. Most cadet programs are flawed in the sense that the cadet does not get enough command experience. Apart from the PIC hours he is required to fly in order to get his licence, he is never realy exposed to the decision making process on a first person basis. SAA cadets go from the training school to a feeder airline and then to SAA with mostly co-pilot hours......half of which are deemed "command" hours towards his higher licence.

With regards to "inexperienced" military pilots: They operate in a "war" enviroment where colatoral damage is acceptable. They also seldom fly with 300 passengers onboard!!

AA definatly has a place in aviation, I am not disputing that, but it must be done responsibly. I am of the opinion that no airline will hire a profesional co-pilot. They hire you because you have the potential to be a commander. Commanding an aircraft requires experience, good judgement and sound decision making. The decision-making process takes years to develop, it is not something that can be taught in a classroom.

[fluffyfan]

Have to agree with you FWK, AA is not nice, but its necesary, how else is SA going to address the imbalance, please we have had 10 years now and the ratio of flight crew has barely changed, what other practical methods are there to address this issue, there is no way 70% 30% will be achieved in the near or distant future, simply not enough black pilots. lets just hope the AA is implimented in a controlled fashion

As for experience levels, well I think you will find a great number of SAA Cadets now working as first officers have more relevant experience than a great number of the first officers operating for the likes of CE and 1time, and probably a few of the Captains too, VB pays crap because his crew are expendable and he can replace them tomorrow with a 200h wonder if he so chooses.

[cartexchange]

Originally Posted by bman0429

IAA isn't just some policy put in place to penalize whites. It is about redressing a REAL grievences!.

OK then its about re addressing unbalances and injustices...hmm what about Rwanda and black on black genocide there! is there an AA plan put into place for the Hutu and the Tutsie's!

I'm not going to go in longwinded, But you all know what I mean

[bman0429]

Originally Posted by cartexchange

OK then its about re addressing unbalances and injustices...hmm what about Rwanda and black on black genocide there! is there an AA plan put into place for the Hutu and the Tutsie's!
I'm not going to go in longwinded, But you all know what I mean

Uh gee yeah I see what you mean?!

Rawanda is messed up but that is/was a civil war! Also point of fact Hutu's and Tutsie are indigenous to Rawanda.

FWK I should first point out where we agree. AA has a purpose and it is not punitive.

Here's where we disagree: Military pilots hold greater killing capablility to kill than a single screw up by some commercial pilot. He's dead maybe 300+ people are dead in an accident. Military pilots run around many times solo carrying conventional and nuclear weapons. Most scarcely have any total time relative to their civilian counterparts and even few years of experience. And after they do their destructive thing the get to live and do it again.

Cadet programs are what are being used around the world to hire "locals" to create equity in the pilot ranks between the locals and the gringos. IT is usually as you say an experienced Capt with a well trained (if inexperienced FO). Usually that exp. Capt is a Foreigner! Which is where many experienced non natives are finding good paying gigs.

[FlingWingKing]

bman0429, this thread goes about addressing the issues in SAA cockpits, and I can assure you, they do not employ "foreign" captains.

As for the military pilots....they go through a vigorous selection process in order to prevent the trigger happy ones from getting their hands on the destruction that you refer to. Once again, civilian pilots are to military pilots like a strawberry is to a mango. It is two diffirent things. Like I said, military pilots are trained to operate during war situations. They are soldiers obeying orders from the higher ranks and their "killing" is during war.

Civilian pilots are not at war. We are dependant on the general public to use our "bus" service. If we put inexperienced captains in the cockpit, and there is a cockup of some sort where people are killed, that airline will be sued for every cent it has. Public opinion of an airline is very important. After all, they are the one paying our salaries!

[cavortingcheetah]

There is another aspect to this of course.
I was recently visiting in England and went to a Prison Reform Trust evening at the House of Lords.
The prison population in England is disproportionate to the extent that a very large percentage of a minority of the population successfully occupy a vastly greater number of places than do the majority. Given that all the population start on a level playing field; it is therefore axiomatic that some people are better at some things than others? QED in so far as aviation is concerned?

[crew-use-only]

Originally Posted by bman0429

Uh gee yeah I see what you mean?!
Rawanda is messed up but that is/was a civil war! Also point of fact Hutu's and Tutsie are indigenous to Rawanda..

so are you saying that AA does not apply because they are "indigenous"

The whites have been in Africa for hundreds of years, some of them longer than many black tribes, if you take close look you will see that huge immigration started into Africa when the whites settled it and made it into an economic viability.
I know you hate the thought but its a fact and its the truth.
And the reverse has happened in ZIMBABWE, the blacks gained control, the economy is a mess and they are wanting to emigrate. ( for gods sake you cant even get a decent bit of paper to wype your @arse these days)

Anyway this debate has been going on for centuries and people will always have a different view.

I don't think anyone would have any objections to who is flying the aircraft as long as they have the correct and valid skills, not because they are black or white or Indian or a female...... its all to do with skills .........

[JG1]

1. With regard to the employment of low-time black pilots to SAA, I think in reality it's not the experience issue which many here are concerned about, it's the fact that these low-time blacks are 'jumping the queue' and putting more experienced white pilots out of a job. Complaining about low experience is simply a cover for complaining that you are being nobbed by affirmative action. There are hundreds of low-time (250hr) pilots flying commercial jets in Europe.

2. White culture in SA is very different from black culture. Very very different. Blacks and whites here think differently. Lots of whites cannot understand why Mugabe gets voted back in time after time. Lots of blacks can - they see him as the Chief Who Kicked the Whites Out and no matter what he does, or whether or not they like him, due to the inherent respect of heroes and elders in their culture, the majority will continue to support him to the end.

3. Blacks in Zim (and here, I suspect) would rather live in ruins than under 'the white man's yoke' again. The logic applied here is not 'what is the best for me/us/the country', it is 'we are the winners' ie. jungle rule #1.
Consequently no matter what the whites think, to the blacks it has been and always will be an us-against-them thing. In their tribal culture, until as recently as 3 or 4 generations ago, this us-against-them mindset ensured that their different tribes lived in a constant state of aggression. We see that clearly today in SA, it's not just the Black vs White thing, its the Zulu vs Xhosa thing, etc.

4. The whites here, thinking differently, and being a product of a society in Europe which had de-tribalized and learned to compromise many centuries ago, don't think like this. When we voted 'Yes' in the Referendum it was to end apartheid and racism, and to forge a harmonious compromise between all for the betterment of the country/us/me.

5. The transition happened, but it seems that whilst the Whites have been bending over backward to keep their side of the compromise, the Blacks are becoming more and more uncompromising (refer the Tutu speech recently) and are set to impose their policies whether workable or not. Again, the logic applied here is not 'what is the best for me/us/the country', it is 'we are the winners, you fall in line'.

6. The Blacks in SA find life very biased toward them under affirmative action. It is not just preferred employment. If a Black wishes to start a business, he/she gets free grants, preferential (often interest-free) loans, and preferential contracts and contacts. This will remain so, as long as their culture remains 'strongest survives'.

7. Its my belief that the reason there are so few black pilots is because to get to the stage of being employable as an airline pilot (even a 250hr one) takes dedication and a lot of hard work. Since transition if you were a black pilot your future was as rosy as could be, it was almost handed to you on a plate, yet, there is still a significant shortage of black pilots. Why? because although a SAA job would be handed to you on a plate, you had to do some hard work first. No, there is more money to be recieved/taken/applied for under other facets of Affirmative Action - as a Black you can get rich far quicker in other ways. Only someone who has a real passion for aviation would go through the hard work and study required to get to ATPL level.

8. Apart from affirmative action, the other downfall in Africa is the Handout Syndrome which started with sailors long ago handing out free beads/mirrors/what have you to the locals. The White Man has been seen for generations as The Giver/The Provider thus relegating the Black Man to the status of The Taker/The Demander.

9.Unfortunately AA/BEE and the Handout Syndrome fit hand in glove to ensure that the Givers/Providers get fleeced in an optimal way. The Givers/Providers get to pay tax, but have no say in governance - they are turned into economic prisoners. When their powers of Providence wane, they are of no further use and will be chopped. History has shown this over and over.

10. The Black Man is in charge in SA now, the White Man must either overthrow him or leave for greener pastures, there is no compromise. Which is why we hear all the SA accents in all the other regions of the world. There is no compromise, from now on the White Man will provide the loaf and get the breadcrumbs.

11. No matter how you gloss the facts, this is the situation. Personally I have no hatred/dislike/disdain for blacks at all, I just like systems to be optimised. So a biased system based on unworkable principles really get under my skin. Just as Apartheid did.

12. The old Regime also disadvantaged white males in that they had to do National Service - forced to forfeit 2 of the best years of their lives to support the Apartheid Regime. Not only were these two years lost forever - many of those servicemen still bear the psychological scars of that time and many of their lives were, and still are, affected negatively by this experience in a tremendous way.

13. What I'd like to see is all of us just get on with it, forget old grievances, and stop turning the racist past into a racist present. "The past was simple, the present tense, and the future perfect"!

[FlingWingKing]

JG1

BRILLIANT, BRILLIANT, BRILLIANT!!

You have summed it up masterly!

How long before we become Zim? When Zumgabe gets voted in perhaps?

[B Sousa]

JG1...Very Interesting read.........

[crew-use-only]

absolutely fascinating read JG1
One of the best pieces I have seen in ages!