Transformation in SA Aviation - going nowhere slowly (like this thread)
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Transformation in SA Aviation - going nowhere slowly (like this thread)
This is my first post in pprune, Aviation in SA has been in the hands of pale males from the beginning. Now 12 years after democracy it is sad to notice that the status quo is maintained. In a country with more than 45 million citizens, why is it that Aviation is controlled by a group making up less than 10% of the population?
More saddening is that any attempt by government to try and level the playing fields by bringing more non-pale pilots and other aviation professionals in the Airforce and Parastatals is met by heavy criticism in the media and forums like these. It seems that this group is very much greedy and they want to keep Aviation in their hands for as long as possible.
Well SA it's time to embrace change, it's time that all those groups that were excluded in professions like these are given a chance to participate in Aviation. I don't mean some tokenism where 1 or 2 non pales are placed as a lame attempt to show representivity, but a sustained programme which will see Aviation being shared proportionally amongst all the population groups in this country.
A friend of mine who replied to a thread lashing at transformation in this forum, told me of a sad story of being locked to post. Well I challenge the moderators of this forum to allow freedom of speech and a critical issue which affects every South African Aviator, Pale or not to be discussed openly.
More saddening is that any attempt by government to try and level the playing fields by bringing more non-pale pilots and other aviation professionals in the Airforce and Parastatals is met by heavy criticism in the media and forums like these. It seems that this group is very much greedy and they want to keep Aviation in their hands for as long as possible.
Well SA it's time to embrace change, it's time that all those groups that were excluded in professions like these are given a chance to participate in Aviation. I don't mean some tokenism where 1 or 2 non pales are placed as a lame attempt to show representivity, but a sustained programme which will see Aviation being shared proportionally amongst all the population groups in this country.
A friend of mine who replied to a thread lashing at transformation in this forum, told me of a sad story of being locked to post. Well I challenge the moderators of this forum to allow freedom of speech and a critical issue which affects every South African Aviator, Pale or not to be discussed openly.
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"why is it that Aviation is controlled by a group making up less than 10% of the population?"
Funny that - I thought SAA was controlled by the black govermunt??
GI
Funny that - I thought SAA was controlled by the black govermunt??
GI
Surely it is this issue that BEE is supposed to be addressing?
It would have been dangerous and foolhardy to have disposed of the experienced staff and put in place people who were not trained or capable to carry out the responsibilities required of the position. Aviation is too serious a business to start messing around purely for politics. People die if mistakes are made.
Succession planning should see more non pale (whata quaint term
) people being given the right experience to apply for senior positions, but I hope you are not suggesting they should get the position simply because of colour? It has to be fair for all, pale and non pale otherwise it is discrimination, when it should be the best person getting the position.
It would have been dangerous and foolhardy to have disposed of the experienced staff and put in place people who were not trained or capable to carry out the responsibilities required of the position. Aviation is too serious a business to start messing around purely for politics. People die if mistakes are made.
Succession planning should see more non pale (whata quaint term
) people being given the right experience to apply for senior positions, but I hope you are not suggesting they should get the position simply because of colour? It has to be fair for all, pale and non pale otherwise it is discrimination, when it should be the best person getting the position.
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This should be a good thread to watch. Move over "Huey" this is going to take over.
Who controls the CAA?
Who controls SAA?
I wonder where I have been all the time. I thought everybody had been moaning like hell because of the BEE with these 2 organisations.
Lets sit back, watch and enjoy.............
Who controls the CAA?
Who controls SAA?
I wonder where I have been all the time. I thought everybody had been moaning like hell because of the BEE with these 2 organisations.
Lets sit back, watch and enjoy.............
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Oh Is that right
SAA belongs to the people of South Africa, every other department in there is making steady progress to transform, but not Flight Operations. All the Senior Management (Flying) there is still very much pale and have been the architects of arrested development for non pales with much needed assistance from SAAPA.
Needless to say the little that had been done there has been at the insistence of the SA government. Show me 1 pale owned Aviation Company that has made similar initiatives with any significance.
C'mon SA, the cockpits of other countries are representative of those countries populations groups why not SA.
one talks of succession planning etc, 12 years on what has happenned in that front? If this was executed in any level, we should be seeing some level of representativity in the development arenas like flying schools and charter companies... In SA?? dream on.
Needless to say the little that had been done there has been at the insistence of the SA government. Show me 1 pale owned Aviation Company that has made similar initiatives with any significance.
C'mon SA, the cockpits of other countries are representative of those countries populations groups why not SA.
one talks of succession planning etc, 12 years on what has happenned in that front? If this was executed in any level, we should be seeing some level of representativity in the development arenas like flying schools and charter companies... In SA?? dream on.
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Yeehah........hold on Afriaviation this could get rough!!!! Where have you been? This has been discussed on numerous occassions!!!
Be warned as there is a large can of whip ass coming your way
Afriaviation where are the non pale entrepreneurs startingtheir own flying schools or charter companies. You know the pales didn't have things handed to them by government decree these last 12 years, they took financial risks, some worked out OK others didn't.
So why have the educated and qualified non pales that you claim are in abundance and ready to take high responsibility not seized the moment and started their own businesses?
So why have the educated and qualified non pales that you claim are in abundance and ready to take high responsibility not seized the moment and started their own businesses?
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Hey Afri!
If you cant hack it in SA today (where there is blatant discrimination against "pales" in the job market) you should just accept that you don't have it...the right stuff that is!
Be careful or you will be labelled a racist soon. I agree with one of the prevoius posters. There are thousands of BEE entrepeneurs out there, what stops them from opening a flight school or charter company??
GI
If you cant hack it in SA today (where there is blatant discrimination against "pales" in the job market) you should just accept that you don't have it...the right stuff that is!
Be careful or you will be labelled a racist soon. I agree with one of the prevoius posters. There are thousands of BEE entrepeneurs out there, what stops them from opening a flight school or charter company??
GI
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Non Pale enterpreneurs? well this word is is not well known amongst the non pale circles, probably because dads and moms, grand dads and grand moms worked for some pale farmer earning a measly salary because they were denied a good education and opportunities - ring a bell?
Let's not get into that though, the fact of the matter is everyone knows where we come from and for fairness sake, in the spirit of our newly found democracy, lets open the doors that were previously closed for the benefit of the citizens of this country.
For now nothing much has been asked from the Aviation Community by the government. There are laws and everyone chooses to ignore (affrimative Action, BEE etc). The government has imposed its own schemes in the companies it has direct control over. Unfortunately some of these resources have been missappropriated by those wanting to retain the status quo and the progress has subsequently been put into reverse thrust.
People must realise that as much as it would be ideal for non pales to start investing in their own development, this is not likely to succeed without some catalysts because the PLAYING FIELDS ARE SIMPLY NOT LEVEL.
Let's not get into that though, the fact of the matter is everyone knows where we come from and for fairness sake, in the spirit of our newly found democracy, lets open the doors that were previously closed for the benefit of the citizens of this country.
For now nothing much has been asked from the Aviation Community by the government. There are laws and everyone chooses to ignore (affrimative Action, BEE etc). The government has imposed its own schemes in the companies it has direct control over. Unfortunately some of these resources have been missappropriated by those wanting to retain the status quo and the progress has subsequently been put into reverse thrust.
People must realise that as much as it would be ideal for non pales to start investing in their own development, this is not likely to succeed without some catalysts because the PLAYING FIELDS ARE SIMPLY NOT LEVEL.
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Afriviation,
There is one question I would like to pose to you and it might be touching on a sensitive subject but seeing as though you have absolutely no tact whatsover here is my relatively tactless question.
When are you going stop blaming white oppression for all your bad luck and start looking in your own backyard?
It is strange to me that even after 12 years of democracy and endless BEE oppertunities you still cannot make it??? It blows my mind.
And don't even start with that sh!t about SAA not welcoming non pales. I know of countless non pales who got into SAA with MINIMAL hours and then there are pales with 1000's and 1000's of hours who cannot get in because "they do not fall into the right demographic.
You know what, if I say to you what I really want to, I will definitely get banned from this site so I'm not going to give you the satisfaction.
Have a good day chum.
There is one question I would like to pose to you and it might be touching on a sensitive subject but seeing as though you have absolutely no tact whatsover here is my relatively tactless question.
When are you going stop blaming white oppression for all your bad luck and start looking in your own backyard?
It is strange to me that even after 12 years of democracy and endless BEE oppertunities you still cannot make it??? It blows my mind.
And don't even start with that sh!t about SAA not welcoming non pales. I know of countless non pales who got into SAA with MINIMAL hours and then there are pales with 1000's and 1000's of hours who cannot get in because "they do not fall into the right demographic.
You know what, if I say to you what I really want to, I will definitely get banned from this site so I'm not going to give you the satisfaction.
Have a good day chum.
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Just googled "entrepeneur" with the following result.
"Bob Reiss, successful entrepreneur and author of Low-Risk, High-Reward: Starting and Growing Your Small Business With Minimal Risk, says: "Entrepreneurship is the recognition and pursuit of opportunity without regard to the resources you currently control, with confidence that you can succeed, with the flexibility to change course as necessary, and with the will to rebound from setbacks."
A key factor in Reiss's definition is that entrepreneurs undertake opportunities regardless of the resources the entrepreneur currently controls. I've known many people who say they'd love to start a business, but they just don't have the money to get started. Neither did many of history's greatest entrepreneurs like Michael Dell, who started his computer company in his college dorm room or Lillian Vernon, who started her mail-order business when she was a housewife looking for extra income. These successful entrepreneurs didn't start rich and successful. They ended rich and successful."
Based on the above definition of an entrepeneur I don't think your ancestors had the ability to be an entrepeneur (but you know this already)
As long as you have this attitude that every thing must be handed to you on a silver plate nothing will change.
The system is heavily stacked in your favour.
The question is - are you guys capable of being entrepeneurs???
GI
"Bob Reiss, successful entrepreneur and author of Low-Risk, High-Reward: Starting and Growing Your Small Business With Minimal Risk, says: "Entrepreneurship is the recognition and pursuit of opportunity without regard to the resources you currently control, with confidence that you can succeed, with the flexibility to change course as necessary, and with the will to rebound from setbacks."
A key factor in Reiss's definition is that entrepreneurs undertake opportunities regardless of the resources the entrepreneur currently controls. I've known many people who say they'd love to start a business, but they just don't have the money to get started. Neither did many of history's greatest entrepreneurs like Michael Dell, who started his computer company in his college dorm room or Lillian Vernon, who started her mail-order business when she was a housewife looking for extra income. These successful entrepreneurs didn't start rich and successful. They ended rich and successful."
Based on the above definition of an entrepeneur I don't think your ancestors had the ability to be an entrepeneur (but you know this already)
As long as you have this attitude that every thing must be handed to you on a silver plate nothing will change.
The system is heavily stacked in your favour.
The question is - are you guys capable of being entrepeneurs???
GI
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No-one will get banned or have their post removed unless they clearly cross the line of civil morality. This is a great forum to debate this subject; Afriviation has stated his grievance; you are free to dispute or support his position. Remember, the whole world is watching. Show them what's really happening down this end of the continent.
4HP
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I see this subject is arousing some rather strong emotions, resulting in personal attacks, that's not the intent. We have a problem in SA Aviation and it won't get resolved if we don't confront the issues and not the people. If you have to know I am one of the very few lucky non pales who have been the beneficiary of the Government interventions but I choose look beyond my personal circumstances and tackle the bigger picture.
SAA is the biggest player in SA Aviation and yes there has been some develoments there but the stats (embarrasing) still fall way short of any significant progress. The rest of the industry is a complete shame.
This is what the players in SA Aviation think of non pale aviators: quote
" Does the SAAF really think that the Zim instructors will make the grade? Maybe the reason for getting Zim instructors is so that they will pass all the students that are not making the grade!
I'm very curious to know if they will complete the conversion in only 35 flying hours????
I hope someone will keep us up to date on there progress"
Yes that's right, if you're a non pale in Aviation in SA, the eyebrows are raised everywhere and it's a matter of " he won't make it until he proves us otherwise" whereas when it comes to a fellow pale " he will make it until he proves us otherwise" in the case of a fellow pale every possible assistance will be afforded to them to make the grade or for their entire flying careers even if they are they most useless pilots.
So you will agree with me that beacuse of these prejudices, it is going to be very difficult for most non pales to get anywhere in Aviation in SA.
And shame for the very few of them who are there, they have to endure the daily torment of being labelled getting it the easy way and affirmative action appointees, well they haven't. If their fathers were millionaires and had aeroplanes and huge bank accounts they would also be counted in the thousands of jobless pilots with thousand of hours.
The least the pales can do is to support government in their attempts to redress the past and stop lambasting their efforts. At the end of the day it's beneficial for the socio-economic situation of the country.
SAA is the biggest player in SA Aviation and yes there has been some develoments there but the stats (embarrasing) still fall way short of any significant progress. The rest of the industry is a complete shame.
This is what the players in SA Aviation think of non pale aviators: quote
" Does the SAAF really think that the Zim instructors will make the grade? Maybe the reason for getting Zim instructors is so that they will pass all the students that are not making the grade!
I'm very curious to know if they will complete the conversion in only 35 flying hours????
I hope someone will keep us up to date on there progress"Yes that's right, if you're a non pale in Aviation in SA, the eyebrows are raised everywhere and it's a matter of " he won't make it until he proves us otherwise" whereas when it comes to a fellow pale " he will make it until he proves us otherwise" in the case of a fellow pale every possible assistance will be afforded to them to make the grade or for their entire flying careers even if they are they most useless pilots.
So you will agree with me that beacuse of these prejudices, it is going to be very difficult for most non pales to get anywhere in Aviation in SA.
And shame for the very few of them who are there, they have to endure the daily torment of being labelled getting it the easy way and affirmative action appointees, well they haven't. If their fathers were millionaires and had aeroplanes and huge bank accounts they would also be counted in the thousands of jobless pilots with thousand of hours.
The least the pales can do is to support government in their attempts to redress the past and stop lambasting their efforts. At the end of the day it's beneficial for the socio-economic situation of the country.
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Firstly... JG1, best reply so far on this thread!
Secondly... Afriviation, I just want to add that I know numerous non pale professional pilots who are senior to me in position and in experience and I respect them for that reason and they deserve that respect.
BUT... it is because of dense backwards people like you who keep holding on to the past that South African avation is going nowhere slowly as you put it.
Secondly... Afriviation, I just want to add that I know numerous non pale professional pilots who are senior to me in position and in experience and I respect them for that reason and they deserve that respect.
BUT... it is because of dense backwards people like you who keep holding on to the past that South African avation is going nowhere slowly as you put it.
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Am I too late..........?
Have all my fellow PPruners cut Afriviations B#lls off??
Hope not, I was hoping to have a swing.
Afri,
I am going to take a long shot here and try sum up your current situation.
(Please correct me if I am wrong.)
1)Your either unemployed, or in a job you dislike immensely.
2)Have somewhere along the line been discriminated against because of your colour/sex etc
3)Feel you are owed something by the South African aviation industry because of all the injustice thats taking place.
GUESS WHAT CHUM......YOUR NOT THE ONLY ONE.
So do us all a favour.....take a second look and grow up. This debate has been going on for as long as I can remember, and ever so often some nose-miner decides to upset the applecart.
SN
Have all my fellow PPruners cut Afriviations B#lls off??
Hope not, I was hoping to have a swing.
Afri,
I am going to take a long shot here and try sum up your current situation.
(Please correct me if I am wrong.)
1)Your either unemployed, or in a job you dislike immensely.
2)Have somewhere along the line been discriminated against because of your colour/sex etc
3)Feel you are owed something by the South African aviation industry because of all the injustice thats taking place.
GUESS WHAT CHUM......YOUR NOT THE ONLY ONE.
So do us all a favour.....take a second look and grow up. This debate has been going on for as long as I can remember, and ever so often some nose-miner decides to upset the applecart.
SN
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Now that I have got that off my chest....I feel much better.
And calm enough to offer some rational thought on the subject.
I can name a pale owned company who is committed to employing non-whites - Solenta.
As others have pointed out, SAA is black-owned and managed.
Afriviation, show me a black pilot who's out of work. Especially one with half decent hours.
'SAA belongs to the people of South Africa, every other department in there is making steady progress to transform, but not Flight Operations.'
So do you want to now put the hands of a huge international airline in the hands of someone who has not got the experience and thereby the qualifications to run it?? I sure Khaya would ensure that if there were a non-white person who could do the job he would be in it.
Afriviation, now I have really calmed down. So tell me, why aren't there enough black pilots around, that SAA is having to hire whites again? I shall tell you why. Because the ANC governements reform initiatives have benefited only an elite few whose sons could have been pilots had they chose to have been before transformation in any case. The general black population has not benefitted much.
So speak to your MP (if you can find him/her) and ask him/her to go to Parliament, and press them to do some proper research on the subject instead of devoting all their time deciding which hat to wear to Parliament, and get them to right things at the bottom.
Tell him/her to applaud the fact that the average black familiy has benefitted in the form of a new tap and some free electricity, and for that they are very grateful, but when please can they get a good enough job so that they earn enough to spend R1/4 mill on putting their son through flight school?
And in the meantime can Tokyo maybe make a few bursaries available?
And calm enough to offer some rational thought on the subject.
I can name a pale owned company who is committed to employing non-whites - Solenta.
As others have pointed out, SAA is black-owned and managed.
Afriviation, show me a black pilot who's out of work. Especially one with half decent hours.
'SAA belongs to the people of South Africa, every other department in there is making steady progress to transform, but not Flight Operations.'
So do you want to now put the hands of a huge international airline in the hands of someone who has not got the experience and thereby the qualifications to run it?? I sure Khaya would ensure that if there were a non-white person who could do the job he would be in it.
Afriviation, now I have really calmed down. So tell me, why aren't there enough black pilots around, that SAA is having to hire whites again? I shall tell you why. Because the ANC governements reform initiatives have benefited only an elite few whose sons could have been pilots had they chose to have been before transformation in any case. The general black population has not benefitted much.
So speak to your MP (if you can find him/her) and ask him/her to go to Parliament, and press them to do some proper research on the subject instead of devoting all their time deciding which hat to wear to Parliament, and get them to right things at the bottom.
Tell him/her to applaud the fact that the average black familiy has benefitted in the form of a new tap and some free electricity, and for that they are very grateful, but when please can they get a good enough job so that they earn enough to spend R1/4 mill on putting their son through flight school?
And in the meantime can Tokyo maybe make a few bursaries available?
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Afri,
Sounds like you got into SAA, well done. If you are so passionate about uplifting you fellow man, may I ask what you have personally done? why dont you reach into your pocket and sponsor a youngster's PPL and give him/her a start in aviation? or is it just up to everyone else to make a difference? talk is cheap.
Sounds like you got into SAA, well done. If you are so passionate about uplifting you fellow man, may I ask what you have personally done? why dont you reach into your pocket and sponsor a youngster's PPL and give him/her a start in aviation? or is it just up to everyone else to make a difference? talk is cheap.