406 down in tz
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a little
thoughts ,
airplane took off , runway 27 due prevailing winds . Runway in that direction is ****e , pilot wants to get airborne quick to preserve ldg gear . engine failure after rotation ....split second decision , close both throttles and crash land airplane on the side . nobody hurt , and bonus airplane looks recoverable .
good !
Looking at matters : nobody can tell what would have been the effects of a down ldg gear .Nobody can tell if he would have cleared the hills on 1 engine .
conclusion : nobody hurt
final : good !
airplane took off , runway 27 due prevailing winds . Runway in that direction is ****e , pilot wants to get airborne quick to preserve ldg gear . engine failure after rotation ....split second decision , close both throttles and crash land airplane on the side . nobody hurt , and bonus airplane looks recoverable .
good !
Looking at matters : nobody can tell what would have been the effects of a down ldg gear .Nobody can tell if he would have cleared the hills on 1 engine .
conclusion : nobody hurt
final : good !
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hi guys im gonna have to be rebel and disagree with you fellows here...
I agree that a good landing is one u can walk away from...but a great landing is when they can use the plane again..
I would like to point your attention to someting else...a coulple a years ago i remember a cessna 404 (375bhp @ side without auto-feather) had an engine failure after take off from Arusha with 10 pob,the pilot is the self proclaimed best pilot in the country,he managed to fly away on the live engine made a circuit and landed safely..
3 weeks ago another c-404 departed zanzibar at gross weight suffered an engine failure and the prop wouldn't feather either..he made a circuit and landed safely...
Now the 406 (500shp @side) identical airframe to the 404 although the MTOW is a lot different,should be able to fly away..
keep it up there fellows
no more 406pilot.....
ps:he jp i certainly didnt expect that reply form you now that ur gonna be flying the big ones...remember after v.1 there is no rto bro regardless of the runway remaining....wonder wht old fred was doing flirting so close to the vmc....
I agree that a good landing is one u can walk away from...but a great landing is when they can use the plane again..
I would like to point your attention to someting else...a coulple a years ago i remember a cessna 404 (375bhp @ side without auto-feather) had an engine failure after take off from Arusha with 10 pob,the pilot is the self proclaimed best pilot in the country,he managed to fly away on the live engine made a circuit and landed safely..
3 weeks ago another c-404 departed zanzibar at gross weight suffered an engine failure and the prop wouldn't feather either..he made a circuit and landed safely...
Now the 406 (500shp @side) identical airframe to the 404 although the MTOW is a lot different,should be able to fly away..
keep it up there fellows
no more 406pilot.....
ps:he jp i certainly didnt expect that reply form you now that ur gonna be flying the big ones...remember after v.1 there is no rto bro regardless of the runway remaining....wonder wht old fred was doing flirting so close to the vmc....
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Hi there guys,
Speculation or not, if a 404 can make it, why not a 406 (turbine !)
JP I thought you knew better, maybe Ol Mikey did not grill you enough
.
like 406 says once past V1 there is no RTO buddy, unless Gulf Air has a different policy.
I would say Ol Freddie just got a second wake up call, not every day is Sunny Day !
keep it flying guys and remember speed is life. stay away from Vmc
Speculation or not, if a 404 can make it, why not a 406 (turbine !)
JP I thought you knew better, maybe Ol Mikey did not grill you enough
.like 406 says once past V1 there is no RTO buddy, unless Gulf Air has a different policy.
I would say Ol Freddie just got a second wake up call, not every day is Sunny Day !
keep it flying guys and remember speed is life. stay away from Vmc
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Hi 406
Watz up dude ? One brandy & coke for uncle oli!
Hey you might be right that the two 404 that have been able to fly away and come back safely but remember :
Engine failure during take off is from the moment you start your ground rolling up to final take off speed . In small planes you have usually VMCG , VR, VMCA and the famous VXSE and VYSE .Believe me at max gross weihgt even test pilots do not try to cut one engine before Blue line.
So I guess that the pilot of the 406 had an engine failure before Vxse or Vyse !
On big plane you don't care after V1 you go and it should be fine ,I am going to check if it works today in the sim anyway ..
Tchao
Watz up dude ? One brandy & coke for uncle oli!
Hey you might be right that the two 404 that have been able to fly away and come back safely but remember :
Engine failure during take off is from the moment you start your ground rolling up to final take off speed . In small planes you have usually VMCG , VR, VMCA and the famous VXSE and VYSE .Believe me at max gross weihgt even test pilots do not try to cut one engine before Blue line.
So I guess that the pilot of the 406 had an engine failure before Vxse or Vyse !
On big plane you don't care after V1 you go and it should be fine ,I am going to check if it works today in the sim anyway ..
Tchao
Last edited by GUSTO; 3rd Dec 2004 at 14:46.
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hello gusto,
can somebody please tell this guy,all these factors above are considered on bigger planes aswell....and as a rule V.1 is always less then VR, so therefore uncle oli if he rotated the plane he must have been past v.1,vmcg,and vmca.....i thought that was the most logical way to do a take off....well atleast it was when i used to fly
keep it up there fellows
no more 406pilot
"In small planes you have usually VMCG , VMCA , VR and the famous VXSE and VYSE .Believe me at max gross weihgt even test pilots do not try to cut one engine before Blue line."
can somebody please tell this guy,all these factors above are considered on bigger planes aswell....and as a rule V.1 is always less then VR, so therefore uncle oli if he rotated the plane he must have been past v.1,vmcg,and vmca.....i thought that was the most logical way to do a take off....well atleast it was when i used to fly
keep it up there fellows
no more 406pilot
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Hey 406 ,
I agree with you but there is a difference between the theory and the reality , ON SMALL PLANE = PLANE not FAR/JAR25 certified.
Try to fly @max gross weight on one engine after rotate speed but bellow blue line on the 404 or the 406 @ arusha with Temp =30 degrees C and call me after . Or I guess I do not want to lose a good friend so don't do it !
If you have an engine failure when you are at 300 feet or higher above the ground and your speed is at or above blue line that is another(AND DIFFERENT) story and you might make it .
Remember the plane I was flying there in HTDA , one day coming back from HTKJ I had an engine failure and was able to maintain 3000 feet amsl while the airplane manual at ISA +15 was giving me 11000 feet.
On big plane (FAR25/JAR25 ) yes you can without any doubts continue take off after V1 (TO decision speed).
By the way your friend fly now for air botswana .
Cheers
I agree with you but there is a difference between the theory and the reality , ON SMALL PLANE = PLANE not FAR/JAR25 certified.
Try to fly @max gross weight on one engine after rotate speed but bellow blue line on the 404 or the 406 @ arusha with Temp =30 degrees C and call me after . Or I guess I do not want to lose a good friend so don't do it !
If you have an engine failure when you are at 300 feet or higher above the ground and your speed is at or above blue line that is another(AND DIFFERENT) story and you might make it .
Remember the plane I was flying there in HTDA , one day coming back from HTKJ I had an engine failure and was able to maintain 3000 feet amsl while the airplane manual at ISA +15 was giving me 11000 feet.
On big plane (FAR25/JAR25 ) yes you can without any doubts continue take off after V1 (TO decision speed).
By the way your friend fly now for air botswana .
Cheers
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Well well well. A difficult one here. But aren't we talking about the same thing, in different terms. 
not sure anymore.
But if the plane was on the climb, passed 30ft, I would guess that he was close to VYSE and passed all the rest (VMCA and its sisters!). Wouldn't he?
EFATO on the 404: not only the self-proclaimed best pilot in the World managed to do it in HTAR with full pax, but Alfie too saved it out of Seronera, with full pax, high temps and you know the airstrip is at about 5000'.
If I had been Ol' Freddy though, I would have done the same: his first one was already a bad one, I understand he didn't wanna try his luck and his passengers'.
TGIF!!! Fresh beer waiting for me after work. A bit of snowboard in the morning kecho and then some steep turn and icing training on the Baron. Wish you all TZ buddies a good weekend. But, please don't go take a rest, keep filling this thread up. Too interesting. I'll try the VMCA, VXSE, VYSE on the BE58, will try EFATO (at 2000' above airport!!)
not sure anymore. But if the plane was on the climb, passed 30ft, I would guess that he was close to VYSE and passed all the rest (VMCA and its sisters!). Wouldn't he?
EFATO on the 404: not only the self-proclaimed best pilot in the World managed to do it in HTAR with full pax, but Alfie too saved it out of Seronera, with full pax, high temps and you know the airstrip is at about 5000'.
If I had been Ol' Freddy though, I would have done the same: his first one was already a bad one, I understand he didn't wanna try his luck and his passengers'.
TGIF!!! Fresh beer waiting for me after work. A bit of snowboard in the morning kecho and then some steep turn and icing training on the Baron. Wish you all TZ buddies a good weekend. But, please don't go take a rest, keep filling this thread up. Too interesting. I'll try the VMCA, VXSE, VYSE on the BE58, will try EFATO (at 2000' above airport!!)
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V1 would be a decision speed, ie go, no go. V1 will never be below Vmca and on most light twins V1 and Vr are the same speed. V1 is also dependant on runway length so a takeoff from a short field (not balanced field) is probably not legal as V1 would not ensure a stop using only max braking to stay within a balanced field length. Blue line is best single engine climb speed so to go below that would entail accelerating to climb efficiently, which would probably mean a slight sink rate until blue line is reached on an aircraft with one donk on the critical list.
Everyone survived so well done to the pilot. Anything more is gravy....
Everyone survived so well done to the pilot. Anything more is gravy....
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The Only Thing!!!
The only thing that bugs me about this whole scenario is that the guy loses the right engine off 27 and ends up on the left side of runway 27 by the fuel tankers scaring **** out of the hot chick fueling flying medical service 206 and missing her pinky by say a couple of inches and with the gear up and both engines featherd,hmmmm very interesting!!!!! I would love to have seen that chicks panties after that one!!!!! Not a very attractive site I would say!!!!!!!
But Nobody Died!!!!!!
Pete!!!!!
But Nobody Died!!!!!!
Pete!!!!!
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hi guys...like i said b4
Well said cardinal puff,i thought u were only good with the beerz,obviously not huh??
The gear was raised immediately after Take-off,now in that case if you decide to reject obviously there will be no directional control,so the right thing to do would be to fly away since the gear was up and locked..
Look guys he did a good job cause everyone is alive and kicking,but another way of looking at it would be that this is the pilots 2nd write-off in a matter of months,so i just wonder wht the insurance guy is gonna say abt that with his premimum...i dont see pratt and whitney taking the blame for fred either
Pete would you stop pickin on the flying medical chick? go find your own russkie....he he he
keep it up there fellows,
no more 406pilot
Well said cardinal puff,i thought u were only good with the beerz,obviously not huh??
The gear was raised immediately after Take-off,now in that case if you decide to reject obviously there will be no directional control,so the right thing to do would be to fly away since the gear was up and locked..
Look guys he did a good job cause everyone is alive and kicking,but another way of looking at it would be that this is the pilots 2nd write-off in a matter of months,so i just wonder wht the insurance guy is gonna say abt that with his premimum...i dont see pratt and whitney taking the blame for fred either
Pete would you stop pickin on the flying medical chick? go find your own russkie....he he he
keep it up there fellows,
no more 406pilot
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Hi guys;
I guess when you have an engine failure after take off you pretty much bleed your speed quit quikly enough to flirt with Vmca.Dispite the fact it take few second to realise what's going on when your engine say good by.
I have been busy the last to weeks doing few engine failure on a old Seneca.
Anyway i am happy to have steer some s... to amuse you guys.I was just annoyed and apologise if i hurt some feeling.
Me again;
Just an add on for what said Cardinal.Blue line(Vyse) is calculated for maximum T/O weight;critical engine failed...So you can figure out your actual Vyse by the square root of your actual weight divide by the maximum T/O weight and multiply by your blue line speed(Vyse on your airspeed indicator).
I guess when you have an engine failure after take off you pretty much bleed your speed quit quikly enough to flirt with Vmca.Dispite the fact it take few second to realise what's going on when your engine say good by.
I have been busy the last to weeks doing few engine failure on a old Seneca.
Anyway i am happy to have steer some s... to amuse you guys.I was just annoyed and apologise if i hurt some feeling.
Me again;
Just an add on for what said Cardinal.Blue line(Vyse) is calculated for maximum T/O weight;critical engine failed...So you can figure out your actual Vyse by the square root of your actual weight divide by the maximum T/O weight and multiply by your blue line speed(Vyse on your airspeed indicator).
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JP
After factoring in your drag you'll get a curved graph so it's not that simple. On light twins the payload is so small it would be a matter of a knot or three on the dial difference and if you can fly that accurately, I'm bloody impressed. Easier just to fly blue line as the book says.
Jamming on power to climb away is going to increase your Vmca in any case so it's a bit of a balancing act.
After factoring in your drag you'll get a curved graph so it's not that simple. On light twins the payload is so small it would be a matter of a knot or three on the dial difference and if you can fly that accurately, I'm bloody impressed. Easier just to fly blue line as the book says.
Jamming on power to climb away is going to increase your Vmca in any case so it's a bit of a balancing act.
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Thanks solid Rust Twotter;
I agree, but try to convice the UK examiner who did my JAR conversion.He was quit pointing out to fly that kind of speed.So be impressed because we have to fly that precised.
I agree, but try to convice the UK examiner who did my JAR conversion.He was quit pointing out to fly that kind of speed.So be impressed because we have to fly that precised.
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hey jp...
honestly how many times have u actually used that formula practically??
i was always taught the first thing you do after an engine or anything else had failed is to find your heart and put it back in its place,then start the drills and formulae's
keep it up there...
no more 406pilot.......
ps:hey jp r u still u saying "i am ze great frech pilot,khow do u like me so far" does it work on gf hosties???
honestly how many times have u actually used that formula practically??
i was always taught the first thing you do after an engine or anything else had failed is to find your heart and put it back in its place,then start the drills and formulae's
keep it up there...
no more 406pilot.......
ps:hey jp r u still u saying "i am ze great frech pilot,khow do u like me so far" does it work on gf hosties???
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Hey 406 no more;
I just use that for the exam.That was it.Because you are expecting an engine failure sometime during your test and they ask you what is going to be your speed.
For the GF hosties i dont know yet.I'll discover that next month.I try the froggy trick in Scotland does not work at all.They prefer Belgium because we brought "stella Artois"(Belgian beer) over the UK.
Cheers
I just use that for the exam.That was it.Because you are expecting an engine failure sometime during your test and they ask you what is going to be your speed.
For the GF hosties i dont know yet.I'll discover that next month.I try the froggy trick in Scotland does not work at all.They prefer Belgium because we brought "stella Artois"(Belgian beer) over the UK.
Cheers