Virginia Airshow (Bell 407 loop & roll thread)
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Loops and Rolls
There is one very important aspect that we are overlooking here. This is that there must have been sanction from the heirarchy at the company for this to be done. One wonders if the pilot did not mention that he felt he could 'do it' and then for maximum airshow...
I do not imagine that this was not discussed at length in the lead up to the show, the Friday practice in the GF and then at the field. The pilot did not perform this on the spur of the moment and he must have had managemnt support before the time. I wonder if he still has the support or if that has mysteriously vaporized???!!
I do not imagine that this was not discussed at length in the lead up to the show, the Friday practice in the GF and then at the field. The pilot did not perform this on the spur of the moment and he must have had managemnt support before the time. I wonder if he still has the support or if that has mysteriously vaporized???!!
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I understand that Chief Pilot and safety Officer for Torchlight Flashlight Broken light or what ever they are called, saw the validation on Friday. Why did he not stop the show taking place on Saturday in front of tv cameras, and 15,000 + people.
He obviously either has no backbone or no power!
After all that, it looked very good!
I hope CE was thanked by the management for putting his career at stake!
For those who wish to know the helicopter was ZS-RIB
dont see why its such a secret.
He obviously either has no backbone or no power!
After all that, it looked very good!
I hope CE was thanked by the management for putting his career at stake!
For those who wish to know the helicopter was ZS-RIB
dont see why its such a secret.
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On SABC2 this morning as part of GMSA they had fantastic foorage of the Virginia Airshow and it included both the roll and the loop. On seeing them again, they were very well done!
Last edited by Sir Cumference; 14th Jul 2004 at 07:19.
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Yes, quite a bit of great footage of the show and I must admit that I held my breadth for that loop and roll, even though I knew of the safe outcome 
They even mentioned the pilot by name and that it was the first time the loop and roll was performed at an airshow.
They even mentioned the pilot by name and that it was the first time the loop and roll was performed at an airshow.
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Goodday all....
15000 people saw the loop and roll at the airshow, another 15000 might have seeing it this morning on SABC2 but what about the other 50000 + that have not seeing it???
Does anyone know if there is a posting on the net or if/when they might show it on tv again?
Really would not like to miss out on it!
15000 people saw the loop and roll at the airshow, another 15000 might have seeing it this morning on SABC2 but what about the other 50000 + that have not seeing it???
Does anyone know if there is a posting on the net or if/when they might show it on tv again?
Really would not like to miss out on it!
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I have been following this thread closely and cannot help but notice the subtle change in attitude from those individuals posting who seem to know a lot more insider info regarding this incident than others – where are you getting all your info from?.
What started out as a request for more details from an interested PPruner, has now turned into a platform to discredit the pilot, his colleges and the company they represent – STARLITE AVIATION (spelt out for those individuals who have a problem remembering the name).
In my opinion, the real issues regarding this incident is slowly being overshadowed by those individuals who’s apparent interest is to discredit their opposition – a pretty cheap way of indirectly marketing oneself if this is the case.
This is what I believe to be the real issue here and not the fact that an extremely talented pilot looped and barrel rolled a very capable helicopter with prior CAA approval, albeit with only 1 of the 2 owners permission, and stole the show.
Let us not allow this incident to deteriote into yet another one of those infamous aviation political bun fights that always ends up running out of momentum and yet leave a trail of bad relationships amongst fellow aviators and forces authorities like CAA into positions where they are obliged to enforce even stricter laws and procedures.
And lets face it airshows are places where we got to witness extra extrodinary aviation manoeuvres calculated and performed by extra ordinary pilots. I bet that if we had to analyse most of the high profile displays performed at airshows today against the operational limitations of the aircraft used in these displays, we would find that most of the aircraft used would have exceeded there limitations somewhere during thier sorties.
What started out as a request for more details from an interested PPruner, has now turned into a platform to discredit the pilot, his colleges and the company they represent – STARLITE AVIATION (spelt out for those individuals who have a problem remembering the name).
In my opinion, the real issues regarding this incident is slowly being overshadowed by those individuals who’s apparent interest is to discredit their opposition – a pretty cheap way of indirectly marketing oneself if this is the case.
This is what I believe to be the real issue here and not the fact that an extremely talented pilot looped and barrel rolled a very capable helicopter with prior CAA approval, albeit with only 1 of the 2 owners permission, and stole the show.
Let us not allow this incident to deteriote into yet another one of those infamous aviation political bun fights that always ends up running out of momentum and yet leave a trail of bad relationships amongst fellow aviators and forces authorities like CAA into positions where they are obliged to enforce even stricter laws and procedures.
And lets face it airshows are places where we got to witness extra extrodinary aviation manoeuvres calculated and performed by extra ordinary pilots. I bet that if we had to analyse most of the high profile displays performed at airshows today against the operational limitations of the aircraft used in these displays, we would find that most of the aircraft used would have exceeded there limitations somewhere during thier sorties.
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Helifan
I 100% agree with you about the talents of that pilot. I have known him for about 4 years now, and not only is he a GREAT pilot, but he is also a GREAT guy.
I just have one question, when did anyone "indirectly market" themselves. I can't see any.
As for the permission, I (and many others) have it on good authority that permission was NOT granted.
I 100% agree with you about the talents of that pilot. I have known him for about 4 years now, and not only is he a GREAT pilot, but he is also a GREAT guy.
I just have one question, when did anyone "indirectly market" themselves. I can't see any.
As for the permission, I (and many others) have it on good authority that permission was NOT granted.
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Whatever the preamble was guys, the bottom line is that this a/c is now grounded by the SACAA and Bell has advised that it would probably require the full drive train and possibly some airframe parts to be replaced, before considering it airworthy again. Weigh this up against all the niceties. No contest in my book - it should not have been done.
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Geesh, I go up to Mozambique for a week and come back to all these neat threads....
Looped a 407, must be a great show, bet there will be big
over that.
I want to see something in writing that Bell buys off on it, I cant believe you will see it in a million years. In which case the owners of said machine will no doubt own a pretty piece of aluminum that can probably be transported to the nearest school for a playground oddity. At least all the serialized components.
You South Africans must have lot of money, thats an expensive way to get an aircraft scrapped.
Rumor has it that the Pilot is a Super guy and great Pilot. He had to know that there would be big over this one. One Hundred times more than a whole fleet of Hueys in the Cape..
Had a friend looped a Cobra in Vietnam, in the middle of a shoot out. The Transmission Bolts streched over half an inch. Tailboom and airframe was so wrinkled, the Maintenance Officer had the whole thing crushed as combat loss. Older Bells didnt like loops..
Guess these new ones are much newer technology, only have a few hours in the 407 but I think the book says not to do that stuff, so am seriously waiting to see Bells response .....
Im sure other 407 owners are lining up to let this guy fly their aircraft.......worldwide coverage..
Looped a 407, must be a great show, bet there will be big
over that.I want to see something in writing that Bell buys off on it, I cant believe you will see it in a million years. In which case the owners of said machine will no doubt own a pretty piece of aluminum that can probably be transported to the nearest school for a playground oddity. At least all the serialized components.
You South Africans must have lot of money, thats an expensive way to get an aircraft scrapped.
Rumor has it that the Pilot is a Super guy and great Pilot. He had to know that there would be big
over this one. One Hundred times more than a whole fleet of Hueys in the Cape..Had a friend looped a Cobra in Vietnam, in the middle of a shoot out. The Transmission Bolts streched over half an inch. Tailboom and airframe was so wrinkled, the Maintenance Officer had the whole thing crushed as combat loss. Older Bells didnt like loops..
Guess these new ones are much newer technology, only have a few hours in the 407 but I think the book says not to do that stuff, so am seriously waiting to see Bells response .....
Im sure other 407 owners are lining up to let this guy fly their aircraft.......worldwide coverage..
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Helifan, we all know who STARLIGHT is, who its owned by, who runs it etc. It looks like you're trying to do a bit of marketing here, and in the process you're trying to slate the others. Bad move!
The aviation industry in this country is very small, and an act such as looping and rolling a civilian helicopter, not certified to perform these manouvers, will of course, attract huge interest. Irrespective of what a great guy or how good the pilot is. The handbook says NO, the manufacturers says NO, so which part don't you understand?
Everyone in this business have been talking about these manouvers, and I can assure you the CAA has been inundated with calls from whoever has an interest. So the news are broadcasted by those in the know, and what remains a fact, is that the pilot had NO authority from the CAA to perform these manouvers.
Now whether he is a great pilot and great guy, which I'm sure he is, he screwed up, and this is what this criticism is all about. Think about it carefully! If it was your machine, would you have condoned the manouvers? Somehow I don't think so....
The aviation industry in this country is very small, and an act such as looping and rolling a civilian helicopter, not certified to perform these manouvers, will of course, attract huge interest. Irrespective of what a great guy or how good the pilot is. The handbook says NO, the manufacturers says NO, so which part don't you understand?
Everyone in this business have been talking about these manouvers, and I can assure you the CAA has been inundated with calls from whoever has an interest. So the news are broadcasted by those in the know, and what remains a fact, is that the pilot had NO authority from the CAA to perform these manouvers.
Now whether he is a great pilot and great guy, which I'm sure he is, he screwed up, and this is what this criticism is all about. Think about it carefully! If it was your machine, would you have condoned the manouvers? Somehow I don't think so....
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Sir Cumference. Please would you post the URL of where the footage is once you have posted it. There will be plenty guys wanting the video as SABC doesn't have the time to reply to our requests.
Thanks
Try posting it on www.flabber.nl
This is an open forum with lots of movies etc.
Thanks
Try posting it on www.flabber.nl
This is an open forum with lots of movies etc.
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Pete, you can contact Monitoring SA (Pty) Ltd. Don't waste your time with the SABC.
They monitor all the TV & Radio Broadcasts on a 24 hour basis, and have all TV footages shot daily and broadcasted by the SABC on hand/file.
Their telephone number is 021-975-5755. They'll gladly make you a copy of the SABC broadcast at a fee.
They monitor all the TV & Radio Broadcasts on a 24 hour basis, and have all TV footages shot daily and broadcasted by the SABC on hand/file.
Their telephone number is 021-975-5755. They'll gladly make you a copy of the SABC broadcast at a fee.
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The pilot in question is, in my humble opinion, is one of the *top 5* on my list of chopper pilots! Flew with him a number of times, and yes he is one of the safest pilots i know.
He would have planned this well before hand.
Good on you mate, a pity i was not there!
He would have planned this well before hand.
Good on you mate, a pity i was not there!
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snothogg, here's a quote for you... READ CAREFULLY
"Irrespective of what a great guy or how good the pilot is. The handbook says NO, the manufacturers says NO, so which part don't you understand?
Everyone in this business have been talking about these manouvers, and I can assure you the CAA has been inundated with calls from whoever has an interest. So the news are broadcasted by those in the know, and what remains a fact, is that the pilot had NO authority from the CAA to perform these manouvers."
Nobody is denying his talent and personality, but MANY people have been in contact with CAA and NO permission was granted.
"Irrespective of what a great guy or how good the pilot is. The handbook says NO, the manufacturers says NO, so which part don't you understand?
Everyone in this business have been talking about these manouvers, and I can assure you the CAA has been inundated with calls from whoever has an interest. So the news are broadcasted by those in the know, and what remains a fact, is that the pilot had NO authority from the CAA to perform these manouvers."
Nobody is denying his talent and personality, but MANY people have been in contact with CAA and NO permission was granted.
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Looping and rolling is OK ??
Ja Gunzzz, you have certainly started something eh ! I thought this thread was winding down, but anyway, here’s another five cents worth, if I may.
It’s quite surprising and worrying how the certification process seems to be completely mis-understood by so many of you out there. It is a long and difficult process for all concerned, where the OEM (= Original equipment manufacturer (I think), the guy who makes the aerie) wants to have as much performance allowed as possible, within the realms of safety. The Civil Aviation Authority concerned wants to assist the OEM, but is by nature, very cautious. And that must be a good thing. Think about it.
When all the work is done, the aircraft is issued with several long pieces of paper which say what can and what cannot be done. These are often in the form of operational limits. For the pilot concerned, these are outlined in the Pilot Handbook, Flight Operations Manual, or whatever is the title. Again, these are limits. They may not be exceeded. Dis die Wet (van Transvaal and everywhere else).
Let’s take an example. If, say, flight into icing conditions is prohibited, you may not fly into icing conditions (deliberately, need I say). It’s illegal. Also stupid, dangerous etc etc. We all know that. We must, definitely, all respect and comply with Aviation Laws. If you live in a country where laws are not respected, you begin to understand where all this is coming from and how it affects daily life. (Of course, I did not even think of Italy, perish the thought).
The same goes for aerobatic manoeuvres. If the manoeuvre is forbidden, implicitly or explicitly, you may not do it. It’s wrong, illegal, unsafe and, probably, quite dangerous (unless of course, you are the world’s absolutely greatest and most wonderful staggeringly talented whirly bird pilot). The only error in this statement is ignoring the problem of how to describe it in the accident report, when your stomach is heaving and your mind is out of sight, you are so distressed at the pointless loss of good human life. He was a good friend (perhaps). It's not a thrill thing, although there’s a fair amount of that evident in this thread.
Let me make it perfectly clear, I definitely have an axe to grind. It’s called Aviation Safety and I want it to be honed to perfection, always, everywhere. I suspect most other contributors to this forum come from the same base. (ie, Helifan, you got it so wrong man).
Again, may I remind you, even if it’s true that “And lets face it airshows are places where we go to witness extra extraordinary aviation manoeuvres calculated and performed by extraordinary pilots.” (Helifan again) it’s also true that airshows have shown us some of the most sensational, rivetting and extraordinary pictures of human beings dying in flames that we have ever paid to watch. Sorry about that, but it’s a personal thing. You never forget. Nearly always avoidable.
Now, dear ladies and gentlemen, not being allowed to do it is not the same as not being able to do it, especially if you are one of the world’s very bestest plots (and a great guy into the bargain. WOW !!! Glad to know you man, may I have your autograph ? )
If you insist and persist in flying an illegal manoeuvre anywhere, you are illegal. De facto. De jure (look it up if you like). And, IMHO and experience, almost always unsafe (read DANGEROUS). Check the insurance implications. They are AWESOME. I promise. Even if you just managed to kill only yourself, very spectacularly, on SKY and CNN plus a few innocents).
Just because you get away with it once does not mean you are/were safe and very clever, it means only that you were (that time, anyway) just a bit lucky. Limits (like laws) are set to protect the innocent from fools (amongst other reasons).
If the handbook says it may not be done, it even means a particular manoeuvre may not be permitted for a particular pilot on a particular day. Not even by means of a letter from a particular person in a particular CAA for particular circumstances. That is the law. And a very good one I believe.
Of course, this is all very general musing and has NOTHING WHATEVER to do with events (or not, as the case may be, AT VIRGINIA).
By the way Sir C, you say “Great Airshow! Virginia does have the finest location for an airshow in the world.” Well man, you ain’t been to Stellies, or quite a lot of other fields, that’s for sure. Shame.
Another thing Sir c. You criticise the Falcons for not flying because of the flu. Big error. You are badly uninformed Sirc. It’s clear to me that you have never listened to a screaming pilot who had decided to fly with a cold, not the flu, but just a little itsy bitsy teeny weeny ordinary cold and later learned about Valsalva’s manoeuvre and pure pain the hard, hard way, on the descent, back to base. Believe me, never, I say again, never, ever, fly with a cold. I have the T shirt. Sounds to me that the Silver Falcons have not lost their consummate professionalism.
Also, you say “I was very glad to have been witness to it”. So what ? It’s like saying “ I saw a blind ou in a BM riding flat out down Commissioner Street and he didn’t hit anything”. I see this type of madness every day in Rome, desperate, desperate. Perleeeze man, grow up. Are you reeeeeeelly a pilot ??? Like watching the rules being flagrantly broken (if that is indeed the case) ?
Hmmmmm…..
Ok, so you also say “I would be mad if I was the owner, gained respect for the 407”. But, Ja, would you fly it afterwards ? With the family on board ??? Always the acid test. Come on man, get a life. Or an aviation job.
Clipboard, your thinking is immaculate. Well done. Thank you for your sanity. You have the right perspective. IMHO.
By the way, Hedgevark, it definitely has been done before, but I cannot for the life of me remember where or when. I still just don’t understand why some guys want to prove the book wrong though. What’s the point ?? “I am a better pilot than you ???” Is it a macho thing ?
On that topic, I remember what a well-known (I didn’t say good) SAA Training Captain said to me once “Luister, oTd, if you ask any pilot who he thinks is the best pilot in the world, do you know who he will say ?” ….. “Me”. Joke over.
Teignmouth speaks wise words too.
Remember, the world is reading all this.
I have never forgotten the moron who flew a B707 of Air Zim EXTREMELY low at an airshow in Harare a while back. Many applauded his efforts but some of us felt like weeping. It was very stupid, but so many raved over it. Same syndrome perhaps.
Bigmanatc – Think about it, it might have been a world first in an entirely different sense, grow up please.
Well. That feels better. Hope not too many of you fell asleep trying to make sense of all this, but I just feel so Ess Haitch One Tee when I remember the totally, totally unnecessary deaths at air shows. So often fabulous guys, brilliant pilots, but just went that little bit over the edge.
My wife and I gave up air shows when we saw aeroplanes taxying through the crowds at FALA a few year back. Ouch !
Sorry if I got too personal for anyone, just old feelings rose to the surface.
Buona sera from the oTd
It’s quite surprising and worrying how the certification process seems to be completely mis-understood by so many of you out there. It is a long and difficult process for all concerned, where the OEM (= Original equipment manufacturer (I think), the guy who makes the aerie) wants to have as much performance allowed as possible, within the realms of safety. The Civil Aviation Authority concerned wants to assist the OEM, but is by nature, very cautious. And that must be a good thing. Think about it.
When all the work is done, the aircraft is issued with several long pieces of paper which say what can and what cannot be done. These are often in the form of operational limits. For the pilot concerned, these are outlined in the Pilot Handbook, Flight Operations Manual, or whatever is the title. Again, these are limits. They may not be exceeded. Dis die Wet (van Transvaal and everywhere else).
Let’s take an example. If, say, flight into icing conditions is prohibited, you may not fly into icing conditions (deliberately, need I say). It’s illegal. Also stupid, dangerous etc etc. We all know that. We must, definitely, all respect and comply with Aviation Laws. If you live in a country where laws are not respected, you begin to understand where all this is coming from and how it affects daily life. (Of course, I did not even think of Italy, perish the thought).
The same goes for aerobatic manoeuvres. If the manoeuvre is forbidden, implicitly or explicitly, you may not do it. It’s wrong, illegal, unsafe and, probably, quite dangerous (unless of course, you are the world’s absolutely greatest and most wonderful staggeringly talented whirly bird pilot). The only error in this statement is ignoring the problem of how to describe it in the accident report, when your stomach is heaving and your mind is out of sight, you are so distressed at the pointless loss of good human life. He was a good friend (perhaps). It's not a thrill thing, although there’s a fair amount of that evident in this thread.
Let me make it perfectly clear, I definitely have an axe to grind. It’s called Aviation Safety and I want it to be honed to perfection, always, everywhere. I suspect most other contributors to this forum come from the same base. (ie, Helifan, you got it so wrong man).
Again, may I remind you, even if it’s true that “And lets face it airshows are places where we go to witness extra extraordinary aviation manoeuvres calculated and performed by extraordinary pilots.” (Helifan again) it’s also true that airshows have shown us some of the most sensational, rivetting and extraordinary pictures of human beings dying in flames that we have ever paid to watch. Sorry about that, but it’s a personal thing. You never forget. Nearly always avoidable.
Now, dear ladies and gentlemen, not being allowed to do it is not the same as not being able to do it, especially if you are one of the world’s very bestest plots (and a great guy into the bargain. WOW !!! Glad to know you man, may I have your autograph ? )
If you insist and persist in flying an illegal manoeuvre anywhere, you are illegal. De facto. De jure (look it up if you like). And, IMHO and experience, almost always unsafe (read DANGEROUS). Check the insurance implications. They are AWESOME. I promise. Even if you just managed to kill only yourself, very spectacularly, on SKY and CNN plus a few innocents).
Just because you get away with it once does not mean you are/were safe and very clever, it means only that you were (that time, anyway) just a bit lucky. Limits (like laws) are set to protect the innocent from fools (amongst other reasons).
If the handbook says it may not be done, it even means a particular manoeuvre may not be permitted for a particular pilot on a particular day. Not even by means of a letter from a particular person in a particular CAA for particular circumstances. That is the law. And a very good one I believe.
Of course, this is all very general musing and has NOTHING WHATEVER to do with events (or not, as the case may be, AT VIRGINIA).
By the way Sir C, you say “Great Airshow! Virginia does have the finest location for an airshow in the world.” Well man, you ain’t been to Stellies, or quite a lot of other fields, that’s for sure. Shame.
Another thing Sir c. You criticise the Falcons for not flying because of the flu. Big error. You are badly uninformed Sirc. It’s clear to me that you have never listened to a screaming pilot who had decided to fly with a cold, not the flu, but just a little itsy bitsy teeny weeny ordinary cold and later learned about Valsalva’s manoeuvre and pure pain the hard, hard way, on the descent, back to base. Believe me, never, I say again, never, ever, fly with a cold. I have the T shirt. Sounds to me that the Silver Falcons have not lost their consummate professionalism.
Also, you say “I was very glad to have been witness to it”. So what ? It’s like saying “ I saw a blind ou in a BM riding flat out down Commissioner Street and he didn’t hit anything”. I see this type of madness every day in Rome, desperate, desperate. Perleeeze man, grow up. Are you reeeeeeelly a pilot ??? Like watching the rules being flagrantly broken (if that is indeed the case) ?
Hmmmmm…..
Ok, so you also say “I would be mad if I was the owner, gained respect for the 407”. But, Ja, would you fly it afterwards ? With the family on board ??? Always the acid test. Come on man, get a life. Or an aviation job.
Clipboard, your thinking is immaculate. Well done. Thank you for your sanity. You have the right perspective. IMHO.
By the way, Hedgevark, it definitely has been done before, but I cannot for the life of me remember where or when. I still just don’t understand why some guys want to prove the book wrong though. What’s the point ?? “I am a better pilot than you ???” Is it a macho thing ?
On that topic, I remember what a well-known (I didn’t say good) SAA Training Captain said to me once “Luister, oTd, if you ask any pilot who he thinks is the best pilot in the world, do you know who he will say ?” ….. “Me”. Joke over.
Teignmouth speaks wise words too.
Remember, the world is reading all this.
I have never forgotten the moron who flew a B707 of Air Zim EXTREMELY low at an airshow in Harare a while back. Many applauded his efforts but some of us felt like weeping. It was very stupid, but so many raved over it. Same syndrome perhaps.
Bigmanatc – Think about it, it might have been a world first in an entirely different sense, grow up please.
Well. That feels better. Hope not too many of you fell asleep trying to make sense of all this, but I just feel so Ess Haitch One Tee when I remember the totally, totally unnecessary deaths at air shows. So often fabulous guys, brilliant pilots, but just went that little bit over the edge.
My wife and I gave up air shows when we saw aeroplanes taxying through the crowds at FALA a few year back. Ouch !
Sorry if I got too personal for anyone, just old feelings rose to the surface.
Buona sera from the oTd