Racist Saa

[KASAC 7]

I am rather surprised that nobody has picked up on the latest debacle at SAA in this forum! Seeing as they have run out of "previously disadvantaged" crew to recruit, they have now started employing foreign crew from other African countries. Isn't this unconstitutional? It definitely is discrimination on the basis of skin colour! Why is the union so quiet about this?

[SortieIII]

Hi Kasac 7 - Do you have any facts to back this up? There might be pressure to recruit from other African countries, but I have not seen any evidence of it actually happening. As far as I know, the current recruitment policy does not allow this? Give us some more info please.

[126,7]

Don't they own shares in a number of small carriers, or would be carriers all over east Africa? Maybe those governments are forcing SAA to recruit some of their pilots. Tanzania and Uganda probably supplying the majority of new crews.

Am typing under correction here!!

It makes sense from a business point of view. These new guys would probably have a license already and there is no need to train ab-initio students from the previously disadvantaged group. Much cheaper.....

[dejidip]

We in NIGERIA have been made to understand that SAA is bidding for a share in our national airline ,it stands to reason therefore that South Africans wolud be employed in addition to Nigerians if this works out;And be informed we already have over 350 South African pilots both flying fixed wing and rotor driven aircraft here even when some Nigerian pilots were unemployed.So please relax take it easy and be accomodating Africa for Africans is good enough.Tne 2 biggest mobile telecommunication companies in Nigeria are proudly South African and a quarter of thier workforces are South African[MTN/ECONET] cheer up maybe you,ll soon be flying in NIGERIA Good Luck

[126.9]

Nicely said Mr dejidip! That racist paranoia is starting to wear a bit thin for me too! The one thing I know about SAA is this: If you're qualified, you pass the selection and you're in! I did! If you fail the selection, don't blame SAA; take a look in the mirror! Otherwise, why the hell shouldn't a qualified Nigerian be allowed to apply to SAA?

[KASAC 7]

I think you guys have missed the point! There are many suitably qualified people in SA who are now being overlooked and not even given the opportunity to attend the selection process. I am a firm believer in the best man for the job, but I draw the line when I don't even get the opportunity to compete for a job in my own national airline because foreigners are being employed just because they happen to be "non-white." I have heard of a number of people that fit into this category who have been offered jobs, one being a Zambian who was flying a B1900 in Botswana. He started about a week ago.

[dejidip]

Sorry KAS the shoe doth hurt on the other foot too just keep trying you are supposed to be advantaged except for affirmative action.Dont give up ill pray for you or come over to Nigeria lots of aircraft to fly,and not enough pilots.And lots of your guys here anyway come build some time and become more marketable

[Warlock2000]

DEFN: Affirmative Action

A policy designed to redress past discrimination against women and minority groups through measures to improve their economic and educational opportunities.

MINORITY GROUPS!

Anything else is simply REVERSE RACISM...

[Gimbal]

Kasac7...those are pretty rich comments coming from one who is building time in another country,namely Botswana.

Anyway...as requested before, please substantiate your accusations with facts, because as far as I know apart from the cadets the only 'previously disadvantaged' pilots hired by SAA constitute less than 20% of the total hired so far...and I won't even go back more than two years. Nowadays its easy to blame the recruitment process and AA, when one doesn't make the grade, its seems individuals are becoming blameless. (By the way there are also cadets who don't automatically get into SAA after SAX or Link, theres one who I know of who didn't make it past the final interview, I wonder who he blames, most definitely not himself I'm sure.)

There are lots of SA,British,American, pilots at Cathay, Emirates etc. but as soon as an African pilot chooses to become an expat, all hell breaks loose, and the whinging erupts, why is that? When will things change?

[dejidip]

Very well said GYM you could not have put it any better,KAS just dont give up it always gets better GOOD LUCK

[Tango24]

About passing the few that battle.....Ask a training Capt if he's ever had pressure from the top to pass someone who was not up to scratch, but was a different gender or another colour? It happened in the Defence force.

I don't think that we can deny the fact that affirmative action is not evident, but there is a little room for it, as the previously disadvantege did take a back seat for a while. However the process should be dealt with to ensure that safety is still the top priority.

The best person for the job should be hired, but don't look down upon someone because of gender or colour.

[Cpt. Underpants]

Just my two cents worth:

There are lots of SA, British, American, pilots at Cathay, Emirates etc,

Yes, there are. There is also NO local supply of pilots in Cathay and Emirates either. If Cathay could, they would hire as many qualified pilots as applied. As it is, they are actively recruiting cadets as fast as they can (about 30/year) - not bad, considering the 60 week, AUD250 000 course. Before you sound off about mainland Chinese pilots, quite a few (Hong Kong) Chinese mates have tried, in a previous life, to get jobs with China Southern, Eastern, Northern and others and have been rejected as "foreigners".

Why should SAA be hiring expats (African or otherwise) when there is a vast supply of qualified, experienced, motivated local pilots in SA? Oh yes, I forgot - they're white.

[KASAC 7]

Thank you Capt Underpants for clarifying the point I have been trying to make. Unfortunately, something about this thread has pulled Gymbals chain and he finds it necessary to attack me personally. To set the record straight, yes I am building experience in Botswana because this was the only place that I could get a job due to my low experience level at the time. However, in Botswana the employer has to prove to the labour department that there are no suitably qualified citizens for the job before they can employ an expat. I don't see that happening with SAA! If you want the real evidence, why don't you just ask SAA management and hear it from the horses mouth? It appears that Gymbal is already sitting pretty at SAA with the nice fat salary, and has forgotten what it is like to be battling along at the bottom trying to make it to the top.

Let me also point out that I don't have a beef with the guys from Africa who are being employed by SAA, I would do the same if I was in their shoes. My beef is with SAA who are employing these guys simply to add black faces to the flight deck and meet their quota, at the expense of the rest of the suitably qualified crew who are citizens!!

[orgasmotron]

I agree KASAC. Gimbel must be at the honeypot already. He refers to guys not making the grade of being sour. How can he be so sure we are not making the grade when we have not even been invited to interviews ? Of course we will be sour.

I am under 35 years, with 5000 hours with 2500 on medium jets plus Europe experience, ATP, instructor rated etc. Prospective colleage of mine who failed sim in Europe now with SAA. How is that for making the grade ? This was when Europe still tolerated us with EU passports.

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against the SAA guys, but there are a few of the SAA guys that firmly believe they are a cut above the rest and are not shy to say it either. These guys spoil it for everybody.

SAA is a proper airline with new equipment, excellent training, high standards and a lot of true proffesionals working there. (And they pay the best). Of course we all dream of such o job. The job stability compared to other airlines is also great.

The problem everybody is on about is not about the pilots, they are normal crew just like the rest of us. Its about the politisized upper management.

After years of applying at SAA without even an acknowledgement of an application, I have finally given up trying. Will now take my chances without SAA.

All I can say to the rest of you oaks, keep trying. I still think SAA is a great company to work for, if you can get in.

[GormanInkarnati]

Blatant reverse discrimination and racism - that is what it is!

Do we not have a Bill of Human Rights that guarantees all citizens of this lovely country that they will not be discriminated against based on colour, race, religion etc.?

Is the AA policy of the ANC above the Law?

And while I am busy - all you greedy moonlighters out there, realize that there are hundreds of unemployed Com Pilots out there who are batlling to find a decent job. STOP IT!!!

GI

[Gimbal]

Firstly, please guys do bear in mind my intention is definitely not to attack anybody(I would merely like to give a view from the otherside of the coin,otherwise this would just become an SAA bashing thread), I know from first hand experience whats it like on the other side of the fence, (as well as waiting patiently for that ever evasive call from recruiting), persevering until I got the opportunity to fly out my dream, and mind you I too spent hundreds of rands on numerous CVs before I got in (with thousands of hours). But one needs to also accept the hard truth, an AA canditate does have the upper hand in the interview room today. But as little as 10 years ago many of the guys who've posted replys above, too had the upper hand. When an individual of colour or even one of our females (always a pleasure having them around too, contrary to popular belief) for example wished they could one day fly Imps, mirages or maybe (heaven forbid) pumas, the then SAAF gave a blatant NO! nomatter how educated or enthusiastic they were. So this is just a small way in which SAA can right the past wrongs, by giving the offspring of these unfortunate individuals a slightly greater advantage in the interview room. (mind you every single canditate does go through the entire interview process fairly, with no pressure on the interviewers, and a beady eyed SAAPA rep present too).

Anyway I still don't see what all the fuss is about, after all, out of every 10 pilots hired by SAA only 2 (if that many) are AA candidates, the only place where theres a real difference, is during the cadet selection process. And today the most senior cadet has only been at SAA for +- 6 years. The only reason Kasac7 and others are finding it miserable/difficult is because all of his competition wrt getting in , are guys just like him, those whom have had a previously advantaged disposition, and have now flooded the market.

So how many AA pilots from outside the cadet course has SAA hired in the past 5 years, maybe +- 10 ? 'Ja', you say, 'but there aren't any guys/gals available to fill those slots...' Then I say, whats the whinging about? Because in those years almost a hundred new pilots were employed, so your chances were pretty much the same as it was in the 'bad ol' days'. And now you say
its not a question of not making the grade, but a question of reverse racism??

There are white guys at SAA who are about 2 years senior to me even though I started flying before them ( the reason being, I joined the SAAF and therefore took the scenic route). If it makes you feel any better!?

So things are not as bad as you may make it seem, lots of my white SAAF buddies (who were in the SAAF a year ahead or behind me on pupes course) have also atained that so called 'honeypot' which someone has so elloquently put, because they (just like me) didn't give up when the going got rough. So give the system a chance, you'll probably find that it might work for you.


"As it is, they are actively recruiting cadets as fast as they can (about 30/year) - not bad, considering the 60 week, AUD250 000 course. "- quoted from Capt.Undies...

Can you imagine the outcry if SAA started doing what Cathay is...putting a guy in the right seat with only 200 hours!!

(I will definitely shoot a cat !!! )

[Cpt. Underpants]

Hi Gimbal

Thanks for the sensible reply.

So how many AA pilots from outside the cadet course has SAA hired in the past 5 years, maybe +- 10

One day (I hope not) you may experience that "+- 10" numbers can mean 3 or 4 years longer as an F/O...

Cathay is...putting a guy in the right seat with only 200 hours!!

Not really the case. On average, the cadets spend 4 years as S/O's with at least 500 hours per year, and then have a sim session every four to six weeks. The ones that do pass muster (and it's not easy) are more than adequate. I fly with them on a regular basis, and yes, I have had some scares, but no more than the frights I have had with some of "D/E" S/O's from GA in SA, UK, Canada or RPT in Oz.

Hand on my heart, I would truthfully say that while some of them do lack handling skills, how would you have done in the right seat of a wide-body at "200 hours"? If memory serves me well, you would have just had those bright new wings pinned on your No. 1's and be reading the Part 1's for you next posting! Our cadets are also way ahead academically of their D/E brethren, and truly know the systems and procedures.

On a final note, we have about 12 (and counting) for cadets who have just made command - no slack was cut on the course, I assure you. And no, they don't have any restrictions on who they fly with!

[Gimbal]

Hi Capt. Undies....

Do you seriously reckon 2000 hours as an SO really counts for anything. Maybe the sim sessions add to ones experience, but one can't really log SO hours as flying experience surely. I certainly felt a bit reluctant to log third pilot hours in the front of my logbook,(but one has to I suppose). So in my humble opinion (and its only an opinion) I feel that a pilot should not use third pilot hours as a claim to fame , i.e. saying Ï have 2000 hours wide body time." To me he/she still has 200 hours (of which 70% was flown with an instructor in Addelaide! ).

Also as far as I can remember, airlines such as Emirates don't even look at your P3 time.

Anyway at the end of the day we sure as hell aren't flying Buccaneers low level (although I wish I was), and I'm sure its our academic skills such as knowledge, procedures etc. that get us out of trouble in a large commecial airliner, and not our Biggles stick and rudder skills. So maybe the Cathay guys have got it right...? I dunno, you tell me.

[dejidip]

HEY GUYS enough of all this brouhaha,step out of SA and cross multiple borders to NIGERIA jobs are beckoning and theres a shortage or be patient SA will soon begin a recruitment drive if it gets lucky and wins the Nigerian jointproject said earlier it can only get better.ciao

[Kiwi Flyer]

I keep seeing "Reverse Racism" mentioned in this thread.
There is no such thing.......Racism is Racism! Its just PC drivel! Look in a dictionary at the definition of Racism.

Just a point, cos it really annoys me!!!

KF