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-   -   Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island (https://www.pprune.org/accidents-close-calls/617514-cardiff-city-footballer-feared-missing-after-aircraft-disappeared-near-channel-island.html)

Mike Flynn 20th Feb 2019 14:05


Originally Posted by 2Donkeys (Post 10394770)


Mike. I struggle to understand which aspect of this unfortunate affair has anything to do with the letter painted on the side of the aircraft. Perhaps you could clarify.

The CAA is required to have oversight of all flying occurring in the UK FIR regardless of the registry of the aircraft concerned. If there is an issue with questionable charters, the issue is a lack of oversight in general, unless you are suggesting that the CAA somehow watches G reg ops like a hawk and ignores the N reg ops.

There are, in my view, two reasons why there is a proliferation of N reg in Europe, neither (directly) associated with cost.

1. The FAA flight crew licensing regime has been rock steady whilst we in the Uk have watched a dogs dinner unfold as we’ve moved from CAA to JAA to EASA to whatever next.

2. The FAA has historically been far faster to approve new technologies, making the register far more attractive to those operating more advanced aircraft.

The accident rate on the N reg fleet globally is far better than the G reg fleet (so far as these things can be compared) and the FAA has not been slow to act when circumstances require.

In situations like this, it is easy to point at the registry and claim that it has something to do with the events concerned. Right now, I see no link. Tell me why I am wrong.


You make some valid points 2D but of course many of these N reg aircraft are hidden away behind US trusts so that it is difficult to establish who the actual owner and operators are as in this case.

The Malibu was registered to a mailing address in Norfolk , a county where I have owned property for over 30 years. Earsham Hall is home to a number of small business’s all far removed from US aviation.Until recently I never knew it was a postbox for Delaware registration of aircraft.

Clearly as is the case with many N registered aircraft there is a desire on the part of the beneficiaries to hide their identity.

Clearly there is legislation that prevents me from driving a US registered car in the UK (members of the US airforce excepted) so why is an aircraft any different?



what next 20th Feb 2019 14:26


Originally Posted by runway30 (Post 10395657)
In my scenario, the PIC is choosing the aircraft on behalf of the company.

Even then the PIC might not automatically become an air carrier. If in my last example a company tells me that the plane they usually use is unavailable, and if I perhaps could find them a different plane and maybe fly that myself then they still have full control. Their flying date and time, their destination, their passengers, all costs paid by them, their final decision on plane and pilot.

runway30 20th Feb 2019 14:38

Was this a charter?
 
These are the statements that convinced me that this was a charter and not the use of corporate aircraft.

"With regards to the booking of the flight we contacted Mr David Henderson, who has flown us and many of our players all over Europe on countless occasions," McKay said.

McKay added: "We had no involvement in selecting a plane or a pilot and we also wish to make clear again we do not own the plane that Emiliano flew on."

what next 20th Feb 2019 14:50


Originally Posted by runway30 (Post 10395703)
These are the statements that convinced me that this was a charter and not the use of corporate aircraft.

If it really was that way then indeed it was more charter than corporate flying... Mr. Henderson will probably tell the exact opposite. Some judgde or jury will have to decide who to believe.

richws 20th Feb 2019 15:22

More McKay quotes
 
"We take our plane get clubs in it - people who can decide, not the local scouts For different reasons - age, style of play, playing in League 2 and other issues, we only have an offer from Cardiff City – newly-promoted with a manager who fell in love with you first of all from your footage online."

"Cardiff can have a jet for you tonight or tomorrow to pick you and any other people you want to bring with you." I think subsequent statements were that these were McKay paid flights

Both from McKay email to Sala reproduced here in Daily Mail Online Article 18-19/02 (can't post URL)

oggers 20th Feb 2019 16:50


Originally Posted by runway30 (Post 10395643)
I knew this would be controversial and it was deliberately so. When an aircraft is being hired out to a different company every day does the PIC replicate those functions that would normally be provided by a corporate flight department? If the PIC is the only one undertaking those functions for multiple companies, is he not operating an air carrier without an AOC?

What I was getting at is in the case of a private flight the PIC is the final authority for operating the flight (though not necessarily the only person with operational control responsibility, eg the owner if different). Whereas in the case of a legitimate commercial charter, those responsible for operational control are management listed in the ops manual (of course the PIC might happen to be one of them). The distinction is that for the line charter pilot there has to be some authorisation from management to do the flight as part of the extra checks and measures on professional charter companies.

Chronus 20th Feb 2019 20:17


Originally Posted by S-Works (Post 10394941)
I can 100% assure the nay sayers that the UK CAA Enforcement branch are taking this very seriously and are pursing it VERY actively............

This assurance looks to be coming from an authoritative source, and if that is the case then it is the best the news so far. I wish they would go public with it and show us all they are there to look after the safety of all who travel by air.

S-Works 20th Feb 2019 20:56


Originally Posted by Chronus (Post 10395946)
This assurance looks to be coming from an authoritative source, and if that is the case then it is the best the news so far. I wish they would go public with it and show us all they are there to look after the safety of all who travel by air.

Why should they publish information on social media? They will investigate, produce a case and prosecute in accordance with law not the demands of the internet mob.........

lilflyboy262...2 20th Feb 2019 22:51


Originally Posted by what next (Post 10395714)
If it really was that way then indeed it was more charter than corporate flying... Mr. Henderson will probably tell the exact opposite. Some judgde or jury will have to decide who to believe.

Which is exactly what I was getting at.
You are correct in what you are saying but you are applying a case that does not fit the above statements.

The eclipse that I mentioned looks more to be operated in an Ad-hoc charter than for specific companies. I was following it on flightaware for a while but it seems to have stopped flying, or opted out of the tracking.
Curious to see if it's enforcement action that's stopped it flying.

My post above still is relevant with some of the other websites that have been posted referring to cost sharing and advertising complex aircraft.

Also note, on the website that I linked, that it is only allowed within the London and Scottish FIRs.
​​​

korrol 21st Feb 2019 10:56

£15,000,000
 
The deadline for Cardiff City to pay the first of three instalments of the £15,000,000 transfer fee to Nantes has been extended until Wednesday, 27 February (Cardiff was originally due to have made the payment yesterday). Cardiff City have already said they are withholding payment pending "clarification" on the details of the accident and the completion of the crash investigations.. (Presumably that could knock the payment back until 2020) . The BBC says if next week's deadline is not met, then the dispute could be referred to the football governing body FIFA and could ultimately end up in the Court of Arbitration for Sport in Switzerland. The essence of the issue surely is that Cardiff City contracted to purchase from Nantes something which - sadly - was not delivered.

I suppose the lawyers will be attempting to pin down at exactly what point in time the transfer transaction actually took effect. Would that have been at wheels-up at Nantes? ...or on reaching UK airspace?.. or touch down in Cardiff? ...or running out with Cardiff City on their first training session?...or had it already happened t the signing of the contracts?.At what point did Nantes no longer hold Sala insured? - (as surely he would have been) - and when was Cardiff's insurance on Sala due to take effect? . It looks as though there is a viper's nest of litigation here...

Dave Gittins 21st Feb 2019 13:04

I don't know why it would be that complicated. Contracts normally have a start date. When was that ? at that point Sala is under Contract to Cardiff and unless there are exclusion clauses should he become "unfit or unable" that is when the money is owed, per the terms of payment.

S-Works 21st Feb 2019 14:34


Originally Posted by Dave Gittins (Post 10396540)
I don't know why it would be that complicated. Contracts normally have a start date. When was that ? at that point Sala is under Contract to Cardiff and unless there are exclusion clauses should he become "unfit or unable" that is when the money is owed, per the terms of payment.

makes you wonder if Cardiff failed to get insurance on him and now have a £15m black hole they cant fill........

Good Business Sense 21st Feb 2019 19:45


Originally Posted by S-Works (Post 10396598)
makes you wonder if Cardiff failed to get insurance on him and now have a £15m black hole they cant fill........

Quite possibly the insurance company is saying the same thing to Cardiff that Cardiff is saying to Nantes.

portmanteau 21st Feb 2019 21:47

No but your question might be answered in AAIB's Interim Report due out any day soon.

MPN11 22nd Feb 2019 00:58


Originally Posted by BigEndBob (Post 10396852)
Anyone seen any pictures of the front of the aircraft?

I’m sure the AAIB has. As I had noted previously, the one image released to the Media shows the registration. Anything else just feeds casual interest by bystanders. We do not need to know.

G4HQ 22nd Feb 2019 12:29


Originally Posted by The Nip (Post 10397248)


I have read a report, although can't find it now, that there was a problem/amendment with the contract. It was returned and was awaiting a further signature from the player.

How true I don't know.

It was in the Daily Star. I cannot post URLs but you can simply search Sala on their website. There are two articles, one entitled
Emiliano Sala’s Cardiff contract 'not valid’ for Premier League
and one

Why Emiliano Sala transfer row could end up in COURT – Prem star-turned lawyer lifts lid

meleagertoo 22nd Feb 2019 13:33


Originally Posted by The Nip (Post 10397248)


I have read a report, although can't find it now, that there was a problem/amendment with the contract. It was returned and was awaiting a further signature from the player.

How true I don't know.

True enough by the sound of it. This article also describes timings of contractural details etc.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/c...600k-7x80wflkg

runway30 22nd Feb 2019 15:26

Interim report to be published 2pm Monday.

wiggy 24th Feb 2019 08:02

There’s more in the following link about the footballing and agency side of this accident (not behind a paywall):

https://www.theguardian.com/football...o-sala-cardiff


McKay insists he hiredthe private return flightfor Sala to say his goodbyes in Nantes because Cardiff offered only scheduled British Airways flights. He says he booked the flight via a pilot he used sometimes, Dave Henderson, and that he did not know which plane would be used or that the pilot would be Dave Ibbotson, whose body has still not been found after the Piper Malibu light aircraft crashed.

Dalman (ed: the Cardiff city chairman) .said the club did not know the details of the flight McKay arranged for Sala after they signed him; McKay insists the club was aware he had arranged the flight.


ShyTorque 24th Feb 2019 09:04

The word "hire" is very relevant.


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