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-   -   Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island (https://www.pprune.org/accidents-close-calls/617514-cardiff-city-footballer-feared-missing-after-aircraft-disappeared-near-channel-island.html)

ChickenHouse 7th Feb 2019 13:39

The forensics does quite well in such cases, but let's see which body it was they recovered.
The more interesting one for the investigation would definitely be the pilot.
I fear the soccer player does a better media coverage than the plumber.

piperboy84 7th Feb 2019 13:51

I suppose the license held issue in this whole tragedy is a bit of a red herring as to the cause. The bottom line is no matter how many endorsements & ratings one has in their logbook,unless your work is in a professional environment where flight and passenger safety is trained, procedurelised and regulated, and where you eat, sleep and breathe performing flights for paying customer on a regular basis with recurring training, performance assessments and currency requirements, you’re really not a commercial pilot even if your license says so, you’re just a jumped up private pilot chancing your arm.

PDR1 7th Feb 2019 14:03


Originally Posted by piperboy84 (Post 10383092)
I suppose the license held issue in this whole tragedy is a bit of a red herring as to the cause. The bottom line is no matter how many endorsements & ratings one has in their logbook,unless your work is in a professional environment where flight and passenger safety is trained, procedurelised and regulated, and where you eat, sleep and breathe performing flights for paying customer on a regular basis with recurring training, performance assessments and currency requirements, you’re really not a commercial pilot even if your license says so, you’re just a jumped up private pilot chancing your arm.

I guess that must be why no experienced commercial pilot ever made a mistake that led to a fata crash.

Oh, hang on a minute...

PDR

DaveReidUK 7th Feb 2019 14:22


Originally Posted by pilotmike (Post 10382989)
All the news reports I saw stated that the privately funded search was funded by donations, with no mention made of any money coming from 'family resources'.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....1510a3d4a5.jpg

dsc810 7th Feb 2019 14:33

The fund raising is apparently being done via the gofundme site
Here is the link for those interested.......

https://www.gofundme.com/nodejendebuscar-emiliano-sala


POBJOY 7th Feb 2019 15:02

DUTY OF CARE PATH
 
PDR1 & PB 84
The whole point here is there is no clear 'path' on responsibility (or easily found records), and therefore only a very messy legal battle will ensue that in itself will only feed the lawyers, but will not put anything back into the system (as no system was being followed).
No one is saying operating under an AOC is trouble or incident free, but it does ensure a 'DUTY OF CARE' path that is 'traceable' on most of the counts.
That is the big difference in this sort of case as any obvious deficiencies can be fed back into the system for future operations.
The big question is who wishes to pay for this 'service' as the travelling public are frequently not aware of the fact that the charges made are due to the SAFETY element of a flight and nothing else.
I think we all know who the authorities and legal beavers will be looking at to start the trail in this case.

Ancient-Mariner 7th Feb 2019 15:49


Originally Posted by EXDAC (Post 10382069)
This is why I am so interested in actually seeing a UK PPL with no night or instrument ratings. If it does have the actual words "Day VFR only", or similar, then flight in IMC would not be allowed using an FAA 61.75 with an instrument rating. It is not allowed, according to the regulation as written, because it is prohibited by a restriction / limitation of the base UK licence. If, however, the base UK licence grants Day VFR privileges solely because there is no night rating and no instrument rating then the 61.75 with IR would allow operation under IFR in IMC.

My UK PPL issued September 1999 does not have either the word Night or Day printed on it. (I never took either a Night or IMC Rating)
That said, my Flight Radio-Telephony Operator's Licence issued June 1999 neither has VHF or HF printed on it. Perhaps unusually(?) for a PPL I decided to obtain a full VHF/HF RTF and took the written HF exam. Initially the CAA did not fully read my application form and issued me with a VHF only (or some similar words) licence. I queried this and it was replaced with the one I have just described.
Brevity in style can be confusing.

GordonR_Cape 7th Feb 2019 16:15


Originally Posted by elmorejames (Post 10383231)
I asked this question, along with other posters, some hours ago and they were removed by the mods. I ask again, is it possible to remove a body by ROV, or were divers sent down?

Multiple sources have stated that no divers were sent down. Those ROVs are used on oil wells. They have cameras and arms, and can weld, cut, lift, and do almost anything a human can.

Edit: Link: https://deepoceangroup.com/services/imr/wrov-operations/


The Work ROV is the work horse of the subsea services spread and operators extended arm into subsea. Typically equipped with two manipulators the work ROV can both do rough operations and delicate finger tip work at several thousand meters depth.

Raffles S.A. 7th Feb 2019 16:19

One of the news reports I read indicated that they retrieved the body by ROV. I don't have time to look for it right now but I'm pretty sure that was the case.

srobarts 7th Feb 2019 16:50


Originally Posted by elmorejames (Post 10383231)
Is it possible to remove a body by ROV, or were divers sent down?

The AAIB update says ROV " in as dignified a way as possible "

Twiddle 7th Feb 2019 17:13

On my class 2 medical it states "VCL Valid by day only"

Hope this answers the license question.

pilotmike 7th Feb 2019 19:00

https://www.itv.com/news/channel/201...w-sala-search/

A crowdfunding page has surpassed its target, raising more than £270,000 since Friday to start a new search to find the plane carrying missing footballer Emiliano Sala and pilot David Ibbotson.

The Sala family is planning to organise a private search with hired divers, according to Argentinian media outlet Ole.
It seems the Sala family organised the private search using money raised from the crowdfunding. With that amount, exceeding the target, raised so fast, they would have little need to spend their own money.

Chronus 7th Feb 2019 20:34

Yes Arfur they can. It involves the technique known as mixed gas diving where Helium is mixed in with oxygen. It is very much an area for commercial divers. Any underwater work to be carried out for extended periods of time involves bell diving with a compressed air chamber situated on the deck of the dive vessel, referred to in those circles as the pot, for the divers to gradually decompress to atmospheric pressure.
You are quite correct about human dexterity. In the event AAIB require for the wreckage to be recovered with minimal damage, then human divers at this depth would provide for greater chance of success than ROV`s. They would be able to place pneumatic lift bags at pre determined positions to maintain structural integrity during the lift and possibly raise it sufficiently above the sea bed before installing the wreckage in a cradle to bring it to the surface. It is all a matter of cost/benefit for the decision as to which method to use. A decision that I would guess to be made by AAIB, only they are in a position to evaluate whether they need the aircraft as intact as possible or otherwise.

jumpseater 7th Feb 2019 21:44

BBC reporting the body has been identified as Sala.

HarryMann 7th Feb 2019 21:51


Originally Posted by jumpseater (Post 10383561)
BBC reporting the body has been identified as Sala.

YeS CONFIRM.
Their TV News Channel reporting body is Emiliano Sala

Aerial Camera 7th Feb 2019 22:29

This is all very sad, one person recovered and one still missing, but reporting search to be called off for weather. I only hope they resume to recover the pilot, even if the plane stays down, its looking a little like we have the main man so no more money available, but all men should be equal and irrespective of their upbringing, background etc., I hope they resume and find some kind of closure for David Ibbotsons family also. RIP.

Above The Clouds 7th Feb 2019 23:05


Originally Posted by Aerial Camera (Post 10383607)
This is all very sad, one person recovered and one still missing, but reporting search to be called off for weather. I only hope they resume to recover the pilot, even if the plane stays down, its looking a little like we have the main man so no more money available, but all men should be equal and irrespective of their upbringing, background etc., I hope they resume and find some kind of closure for David Ibbotsons family also. RIP.

I don't believe for one minute David Ibbotsons body was in the aircraft or the close surrounding area of the wreckage otherwise the AAIB would have recovered his body as well.
Almost certainly given the currents and hundreds of miles of beaches around that area his body will come ashore in the very near future.

MarkerInbound 8th Feb 2019 01:22


Originally Posted by cessnapete (Post 10381891)
I have had a 61.75 for many years. Commercial Pilot, Single, MEP, Instrument Airplane. (I took the written IR exams in Frankfurt FAA office)
(No EASA IR)

S-Works You can't be a Commercial Pilot on a 61.75

Prior to August 4, 1997 the FAA did issue commercial certificates under 61.75. But there would be a limitation added that said you could not operate an aircraft carrying passengers or cargo for compensation or hire. While the FAA no longer issues commercial certificates under 61.75, if the underlying license is still valid the 61.75 would also still be valid. There was also in 61.75 a line saying the you could not crop dust using a 61.75 cert.

rog747 8th Feb 2019 09:07

Some consolation and relief for one family - at least which is some news.

The PM will determine cause of death of Mr Sala - being if he died on impact or drowned trapped in unconsciousness or if he was conscious - The forensic science will know.

I have no doubt that the aircraft wreckage will be recovered to the surface once the weather allows, although pretty wild again here near Weymouth today with a poor forecast for next 24 hours or so.
If recovery is not done now I reckon it will be in the future.
Any evidence found in the wreck there should reveal something - type of damage, Instruments ,Controls, Mobiles, GPS I-pads etc will be of great interest.

The Pilot may have escaped the crash but succumbed to the sea, or thrown out on impact or during submersion - his body will have been taken by the sea and perhaps be washed ashore somewhere - The mention of seat cushions being found on shore suggest their egress either by the accident or by a person.

There is a £15m contractual asset claim ongoing between the 2 Football teams...To try not to appear brutal the fact is Nantes want paying for Mr Sala.

I would suggest that both Mr Sala and likely Mr Ibbotson were both 'life' insured, either personally and/or via any Company insurance they may have had.
Mr Sala's employment contract may also have had further Insurance to cover his death ''whilst in service''.

All the insurance companies will want to look closely at any evidence found as to how this accident occurred, and if the carriage of the passenger was legal, and if any type of ''contract'' of carriage whether it be formal or informal that Mr Sala had, or had not engaged with, and with who, as this will all be pertinent to any claims.

Pilot DAR 8th Feb 2019 11:38

'Too much uninformed speculation as to the movement/location of victims of this accident. Known facts only please. The "peace" which posters are wishing the victims with those "RIP"s is being violated by meaningless speculation.


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