AA5342 Down DCA
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 905
Likes: 319
From: Virginia, USA
Observations after listening to the KDCA 134.35 audio file:
After LC provides CRJ at Wilson Bridge/1200ft/runway 33 traffic advisory, PAT25 requests visual separation, which LC immediately approves. This is several minutes prior to the collision.
LC is working at least 2 other helos in addition to PAT25.
PAT25 is responding to LC on VHF 134.35. LC is simultaneously transmitting on 119.1 and 134.35 so both PAT25 and the CRJ were hearing all LC transmissions but each was not hearing the others replies.
Immediately prior to the collision when the LC queries if PAT25 has the CRJ in sight and to pass behind the CRJ, the immediate response is “[unclear] has the aircraft in sight, request visual separation” to which the LC immediately responds “approved.” The voice sounded the same as earlier PAT25 transmissions. If so, the non-urgent tone of the reply would indicate that PAT25 had no indication that a collision was imminent and was likely looking at the wrong aircraft.
After LC provides CRJ at Wilson Bridge/1200ft/runway 33 traffic advisory, PAT25 requests visual separation, which LC immediately approves. This is several minutes prior to the collision.
LC is working at least 2 other helos in addition to PAT25.
PAT25 is responding to LC on VHF 134.35. LC is simultaneously transmitting on 119.1 and 134.35 so both PAT25 and the CRJ were hearing all LC transmissions but each was not hearing the others replies.
Immediately prior to the collision when the LC queries if PAT25 has the CRJ in sight and to pass behind the CRJ, the immediate response is “[unclear] has the aircraft in sight, request visual separation” to which the LC immediately responds “approved.” The voice sounded the same as earlier PAT25 transmissions. If so, the non-urgent tone of the reply would indicate that PAT25 had no indication that a collision was imminent and was likely looking at the wrong aircraft.
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 866
Likes: 131
From: britain
Just listened to the audio. The tower controller seems to have issued some sort of a 'semi-conditional' clearance to the helicopter for which there was no response from the pilot..... So what clearance were they following? The controller did not even establish that the helo pilot had the traffic visual before allowing him to cross the 33 approach. R/T discipline in the USA is normally poor but this was pitiful and I suspect will prove to be a primary factor.
BTW.... I have used NVGs. How the hell can you operate in downtown Washington, with so much that is either lit... or floodlit? The NVG image will be flared out every time you turn your head towards a light.
BTW.... I have used NVGs. How the hell can you operate in downtown Washington, with so much that is either lit... or floodlit? The NVG image will be flared out every time you turn your head towards a light.
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 453
Likes: 467
From: Jupiter
Training flights are always accident prone. Either you're training something new and cockpit workload is increased and less attention is given to normal procedures, or you're conducting remedial training in which case a concern was already raised. Then there's the CRM concerns and anxiety/supervision factor, people perform more inconsistently under unusual circumstances or supervision, etc etc etc.
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 905
Likes: 319
From: Virginia, USA
In my understanding, the minimum safe separation in altitude is 500 feet.
As the approach to R33 crosses IDTEK (over the East bank of the river) at about 490 feet MSL, there is no way another aircraft can safely pass underneath at 200 feet MSL.
Thus, I think, the helicopter route RT 4 must be closed whenever an approach (visual or RNAV) to R33 is underway.
As the approach to R33 crosses IDTEK (over the East bank of the river) at about 490 feet MSL, there is no way another aircraft can safely pass underneath at 200 feet MSL.
Thus, I think, the helicopter route RT 4 must be closed whenever an approach (visual or RNAV) to R33 is underway.
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 41
Likes: 6
From: Where databases don't crash
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 58
Likes: 52
From: VA
I have a little over 1000 hours flying with ANVIS-9s, they do just fine with high cultural lighting situations (this was 20+ years ago).
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,682
Likes: 63
From: Far West Wessex
Because presumably military helicopters are sometimes going to do what they need to do and may not be able to check in with ATC.
Providing a conflict-free path for them to do that is the most consistent solution.
However the ultimate issue is traffic density, and the control workarounds (that have been discussed at great length upthread) that the US has normalised to shoehorn huge movement numbers into tiny spaces.
This is probably one of those situations where there should be a military/very limited commercial use airport in the current location and the 'real' airport should be hanging off the end of a high-speed rail line about 50 miles away q.v. Hong Kong.
Providing a conflict-free path for them to do that is the most consistent solution.
However the ultimate issue is traffic density, and the control workarounds (that have been discussed at great length upthread) that the US has normalised to shoehorn huge movement numbers into tiny spaces.
This is probably one of those situations where there should be a military/very limited commercial use airport in the current location and the 'real' airport should be hanging off the end of a high-speed rail line about 50 miles away q.v. Hong Kong.
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 479
Likes: 27
From: at the edge of the alps
While we don’t operate like that in Europe we shouldn’t be too sanctimonious as it is root less in a superior sense for safety than a dearth of GA/military VIP traffic. Most European leaders don’t have themselves shuttled to/from downtown in a helo, senior officials even less so. AFAIK even the late queen took a car to the airport to be seen and believed.
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,269
Likes: 79
From: Denver
But the folks who vote to fund the FAA's budget (Congress) find it - convenient - to also have a civilian passenger airport just 2 miles away. For their jaunts back to their home states to "massage" the voters.
So the FAA does their bidding. And so do the airlines.
One of the Senators from Kansas at the original "midnight press conference" after the accident, with no apparent irony, said that he had pressured American Airlines' CEO for this direct and specific Wichita-to-DCA non-stop route. He happens to be a GOP Senator. But two of the "news interviewees" regarding the collision - Congressman Eric Swalwell (D-Calif) and perennial-FAA-thorn-in-the-side Mary Schiavo - both said they had also arrived at DCA shortly before the accident.
So it goes.
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 18
Likes: 43
From: Halifax, NS
Imagine being that ATC right now. As if yesterday wasn't horrific enough, the President of the USA is now on TV implying that the accident was directly your fault, and that you are a mentally-handicapped diversity hire.
Joined: Dec 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 3,984
Likes: 567
From: Where the Quaboag River flows, USA
That is partly how it works. Dulles-IAD and Baltimore-Washington-BWI serve as the "Hanging off the end...about 50 miles away" airports for Washington. D.C.
But the folks who vote to fund the FAA's budget (Congress) find it - convenient - to also have a civilian passenger airport just 2 miles away. For their jaunts back to their home states to "massage" the voters.
So the FAA does their bidding. And so do the airlines.
One of the Senators from Kansas at the original "midnight press conference" after the accident, with no apparent irony, said that he had pressured American Airlines' CEO for this direct and specific Wichita-to-DCA non-stop route. He happens to be a GOP Senator. But two of the "news interviewees" regarding the collision - Congressman Eric Swalwell (D-Calif) and perennial-FAA-thorn-in-the-side Mary Schiavo - both said they had also arrived at DCA shortly before the accident.
So it goes.
But the folks who vote to fund the FAA's budget (Congress) find it - convenient - to also have a civilian passenger airport just 2 miles away. For their jaunts back to their home states to "massage" the voters.
So the FAA does their bidding. And so do the airlines.
One of the Senators from Kansas at the original "midnight press conference" after the accident, with no apparent irony, said that he had pressured American Airlines' CEO for this direct and specific Wichita-to-DCA non-stop route. He happens to be a GOP Senator. But two of the "news interviewees" regarding the collision - Congressman Eric Swalwell (D-Calif) and perennial-FAA-thorn-in-the-side Mary Schiavo - both said they had also arrived at DCA shortly before the accident.
So it goes.
It’s a political football that will not be closed or reordered because the politicians won’t be without it. All the more reason to close it down.
Joined: Dec 2020
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 573
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From: https://youtube.com/watch?v=P8pihdksUHk&si=t_GX3ubmBvZ2CDgB
Very Sad. RIP.
LOOK OUT,,
RELATIVE, BEARING, constant. of an a/c moving directly away, or directly, towards another a/c. Not noticed
Human Error, will never be eliminated!.
Night Visions Googles.
R/W change, given late.
Any or all of the above possibly, had a part to play, in this tragedy.
LOOK OUT,,
RELATIVE, BEARING, constant. of an a/c moving directly away, or directly, towards another a/c. Not noticed
Human Error, will never be eliminated!.
Night Visions Googles.
R/W change, given late.
Any or all of the above possibly, had a part to play, in this tragedy.
Last edited by RichardJones; 30th January 2025 at 18:10.
See and avoid
Joined: Mar 2003
Aviation Qualifications: PPL
Posts: 757
Likes: 131
From: USA
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 17
Likes: 21
From: New York
muni golf
My bad. The image was published online by the Washington Post, which is obviously covering the story, and elsewhere.
You could contact them if you want and tell them it’s wrong. No offense intended.
Even if it wasn’t a sharp turn, it was done over a golf course and their flight path was probably dictated by noise abatement reasons, as are those flown by jets flying into DCA.
You could contact them if you want and tell them it’s wrong. No offense intended.
Even if it wasn’t a sharp turn, it was done over a golf course and their flight path was probably dictated by noise abatement reasons, as are those flown by jets flying into DCA.
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 691
Likes: 86
From: W. Scotland
Having listened to the 8 minute audio clip linked earlier, it never ceases to amaze me how aircrew and ATCOs manage to understand each other. I got maybe 5% of what was said. Too quick, no diction.
RIP
RIP
Joined: Mar 2006
Aviation Qualifications: PPL
Posts: 365
Likes: 144
From: Vance, Belgium
Originally Posted by SASless
Was the CRJ Crew using Glide Slope information as part of their VFR Approach procedure for the designated runway?
I couldn't find any NOTAM that would have signaled a non-functioning PAPI and, in a clear night, any trained pilot would follow the PAPI indication out of force of habit.
Originally Posted by SASless
The other question is at what point would the CRJ Crew have benefit of visual glide slope lighting for the RWY 33?
starting at the Visual Guidance Fix (VGF) IDTEK which is overhead of the motorway I-295 (if I am not mistaken).
I think that it is reasonable to assume that the pilot would have aimed at passing overhead IDTEK at 490 feet MSL as specified in the RNAV procedure.
IDTEK is about at 1.4 nm or 8500 ft from the threshold or about 9600 ft from the TDZ.
With a published PAPI glideslope of 3.00°, the glideslope path is at about 500 ft MSL at IDTEK
Originally Posted by SASless
Can one derive a reasonable height above ground for the collision point....and/or a distance from the Touchdown Point of RWY33 for comparison to what seems to be the height and distance from the TD point?
And the distance TDZ - threshold is about 330 m for this runway.
With some trigonometric calculation, you end up with a height between 229 and 263 feet above runway TDZ, under the assumption that the plane was spot on the glide.
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 289
Likes: 51
From: Florida
Many have made the point that this accident breaks the 16 year absence of a fatal accident involving a US airliner. ( Never mind the single fatality of the Southwest uncontained engine failure.) But we need to remember that much of that time streak was due to luck. In the past two years, we have discussed several runway incursion incidents where the aircraft were 4 seconds or LESS from occupying the same space at the same time... Austin Texas between Fedex and Southwest, Boston between JetBlue and a biz jet, and Delta/American at JFK.