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KAPF - Naples Florida - Challenger crash on highway

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KAPF - Naples Florida - Challenger crash on highway

Old 10th Feb 2024, 10:59
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The teardrop to the left and then back around to the right appears to to shown here. Looks reasonable. Whatever happened, happened fast, and perhaps when exiting the turn and lining up with final. A time when power would be reduced after the turn.

Just tickled my memory. I was PNF in BOS TCA IFR on approach to landing. Captain threw both AC master power and avionics (next to each other, non guarded) to off. This was out of the blue and for no reason. The entire panel and AC went dark. We obviously worked it out.


Last edited by Flch250; 10th Feb 2024 at 11:41.
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Old 10th Feb 2024, 12:08
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Originally Posted by Flch250
Yikes!
When I first heard of that I thought the airplanes were getting fueled with diesel, not that DEF was going in the jet fuel, presumably in the mistaken impression it was Prist or similar.
* IIRC diesel works fine until it gets cold and gels up, so filling the whole plane with it would be more likely to cause issues at altitude than back down in the warmer air.
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Old 10th Feb 2024, 15:47
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Originally Posted by FUMR
Firstly, it's not an airliner with hundreds of passengers. Secondly there's no emergency slide involved. Thirdly on a private jet an item of hand luggage may well have been within easy reach. Natural human reaction to try and save your worldly goods, especially if they are right next to you. I saw nothing in that clip that would have impeded their escape. I'll now get flamed but I honestly think this is a slightly different scenario to a full airliner and it's human instinct. No cabin crew screaming at you to leave everything and get the heck out.
not to mention / they showed discipline having to exit through the baggage compartment, past their luggage.
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Old 11th Feb 2024, 17:29
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Originally Posted by El Grifo
Glad to see at least one of the pax managed to escape with her hand luggage !!!

El G.
Judge not lest you be judged.
One of the survivors was the FA and she got the two pax out through the luggage compartment.
They would have never known that by themselves.

https://www.fox4now.com/naples/pilot...ash-identified
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Old 11th Feb 2024, 18:03
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Originally Posted by 605carsten
Nah… quick quick turn in Columbus, respectfully I would seriously look at their fuel numbers for an out and back.
(12 years on 604/605 myself)

edit to add, I dont want to read too much into the flames.. remember there is always an amount of unusable fuel that remains so hard to say at this point
If the fuel were dangerously low, would the deceleration upon the approach, the turn, banking, flaps, wheels down, etc cause the fuel to slosh forward and away from the fuel pickups? This to explain the sudden loss of both engines. Perhaps the crew terribly calculated the fuel load due to few passengers and the reserve was miscalculated as a result. But then why would they ignore fuel warnings and land at any one of the 100's of Florida Alternates??

Last edited by JamaicaJoe; 11th Feb 2024 at 18:15.
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Old 11th Feb 2024, 18:33
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Low on fuel after a 2h12 minutes flight? Very unlikely. They would have told ATC from a fuel emergency and there are plenty of airports on their route. Somehow the dual engine failure came unexpected for the pilots until the last minutes.
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Old 11th Feb 2024, 19:27
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Could it be some sort of core lock, I humble ask?
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Old 11th Feb 2024, 20:39
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I knew personally the FO, feels silly saying Co pilot as he was a ultra experienced Captain 25000 hours plus, ex Us Airways A330 captain and ex Virgin America. He has flown so many types, last I heard from him he was on the MD80 and there is no one i would feel safer up there than him. RIP Ian a true family man and aviator until the end, see you down the road buddy.

Something must have gone bad and at very short notice, the rest of the flight looks normal. Prey to god it wasn’t low fuel, it seems on the base turn they powered up and there was nothing left to give .
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Old 11th Feb 2024, 22:02
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`Collector Tank

The riddle here is what can cause both engines to fail, maybe simultaneously, and is considered a fuel starvation when in fact there was plenty of fuel in the tanks? I believe the answer would point to the collector tank. Small in capacity but is essential to enable the fuel to be delivered to each power-plant from any of the 4 other tanks, wings/fuselage or aux, and tail tank (which was already empty as it would normally be.
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Old 11th Feb 2024, 22:04
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So who owned and maintained that aircraft? Hop-A-Jet states "leased aircraft". Thats not too unusual. Registered owner, in name, matches a North Carolina company under FAA imposed money fines. 6 digits. WAS THIS ALL LEGAL?
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Old 12th Feb 2024, 03:10
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Sure it’s legal, why would it not be?
Lots of aircraft out there that are owned by a private owner under an LLC for instance then leased to a charter company.
The aircraft will require a conformity inspection and approved by the FAA to be added to the fleet.
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Old 12th Feb 2024, 03:16
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Originally Posted by BAe 146-100
I knew personally the FO, feels silly saying Co pilot as he was a ultra experienced Captain 25000 hours plus, ex Us Airways A330 captain and ex Virgin America. He has flown so many types, last I heard from him he was on the MD80 and there is no one i would feel safer up there than him. RIP Ian a true family man and aviator until the end, see you down the road buddy.
I'm sorry for the loss of your friend.
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Old 12th Feb 2024, 10:12
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The video shows #2 engine tailcone already burnt, am I correct? Whereas #1 engine looks normal.
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Old 12th Feb 2024, 10:22
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Fuel icing?

There is a suggestion that fuel icing may have been at play here. 350 gallons uploaded in OSU but without anti ice agent. May or may not be a factor but a possibility... They flew down at FL400.
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Old 12th Feb 2024, 12:14
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Originally Posted by Compton3fox
There is a suggestion that fuel icing may have been at play here. 350 gallons uploaded in OSU but without anti ice agent. May or may not be a factor but a possibility... They flew down at FL400.
What is your source for that fuel quantity pls?
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Old 12th Feb 2024, 12:15
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So my post regarding the legality of that trip should not be construed as a possible contributor to the tragic accident. That wasn’t not my intent. What I saw online regarding the ownership of that aircraft and the fact that there seems to be evidence of some significant FAA fines is a separate matter, if true. I am focused on the cause. I flew the 601-3A for about 7 years so I am recall the systems, to some degree. My theory is that they may have been aware that the collector tank was not getting fuel to it so in that way the engines would flame out. Only the FDR would know. There was a “calmness” in the crew call to the tower that “they would not make the runway”. That’s as far as anyone can or should go in this speculation. As anyone of us can agree on is that this real cause will be interesting. I am also sorry for the loss of two pilots this way.

I believe that to be from the post crash fire. My opinion.
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Old 12th Feb 2024, 12:33
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without anti ice agent
Fuel heaters?
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Old 12th Feb 2024, 12:38
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Originally Posted by EDLB
Low on fuel after a 2h12 minutes flight? Very unlikely. They would have told ATC from a fuel emergency and there are plenty of airports on their route. Somehow the dual engine failure came unexpected for the pilots until the last minutes.
obviously not.. but look at bigger picture and short turnaround after repo up from Florida.. apart from a poster saying they uplifted 350 but who knows at this point.
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Old 12th Feb 2024, 13:53
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Originally Posted by 605carsten
obviously not.. but look at bigger picture and short turnaround after repo up from Florida.. apart from a poster saying they uplifted 350 but who knows at this point.
Obviously an hour is sufficient time to refuel.
In range call to the FBO that you’ll be doing a quick turn and the fuel truck is waiting at your parking spot. Fuel is also cheaper in OSU then in FXE.
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Old 12th Feb 2024, 14:09
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Frankly I give no significant conclusion to this information. Most likely it is or could be misdirected. This does not explain the crash. I am curious about this:

1. N823KD is registered to East Shore Aviation LLC but with a South Florida address.
2. East Shore Aviation LLC is also the name of a North Charleston, S.C., aviation company that was fined by the FAA a few years ago ($157,654).

This may or may not be associated. I don't know.

B2N2, you and I both call South Florida home and presumably you have had a career in somebody's cockpit. Stuff like this happens frequently, especially down here.

Again I don't draw any "accident scenario" based on that however when the Challenger (coincidental type) ran off the runway in KTEB some years ago the trail of ownership and operational authority was very convoluted.

Sympathies to the families of the pilots.
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