JAL incident at Haneda Airport
I would have said exactly the opposite. They had time to evacuate 380 people even though the aircraft was on fire from the moment of collision, which damaged the underside allowing the flames to reach the cabin floor more quickly. Eventually it did go up but if you go on YouTube and look at aircraft fires on the ground, most progress much faster than this one in aircraft where the hulls are intact to begin with...
Pegase Driver
Dear ATC Watcher,
good that you corrected your earlier comment on ADS-B and Transponders. Still you are wrong about the “separate box” as a generality. A modern general aviation transponder (as the one I fly with) has ADS-B (Out and/or IN) integrated since a few years……… And further, the ADS-B information IS transmitted on the 1090 MHz transponderfrequency…….
Cheers
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Does Haneda have RIMCAS (Runway Incursion Monitoring and Collision Avoidance System)? I have worked at a quieter airport in the UK which has such a system and I am certain the RIMCAS would have given an alert to the ATCO in sufficient time to issue a go around instruction in such a situation.
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Yes but I suspect if the Dash was lined up on the runway and the 350 had hit it bang on if it was indeed on the ground then I doubt even with its slightly higher position it would be so intact. I reckon its clipped the tail/prop/wing/fuse with the nose and left hand wing before they touched down which may well have been the saving grace, especially as it would have a nose-up attitude in the flare. Still, good to share different ideas and won't change the facts when they come to light!
Yes but I suspect if the Dash was lined up on the runway and the 350 had hit it bang on if it was indeed on the ground then I doubt even with its slightly higher position it would be so intact. I reckon its clipped the tail/prop/wing/fuse with the nose and left hand wing before they touched down which may well have been the saving grace, especially as it would have a nose-up attitude in the flare. Still, good to share different ideas and won't change the facts when they come to light!
A key element here will be the ground/runway lighting in particular the holding point illumination and it’s operation.
At the runway holding point was there an illuminated serviceable stop bar?
If so a vehicle/aircraft should not cross that stop bar whilst it is illuminated red, even with a entry clearance. At the hold the entry to the runway is (Uk) under the tower controller so they give the entry clearance and deselect the stop bar. The aircraft/vehicle can then enter the runway. Unless there is a verbal clearance to specifically cross an illuminated stop bar, the aircraft/vehicle should hold position.
Assuming all ATC tower coms have been released, there’s no conditional clearance to enter so stop bar should be red, and aircraft holding clear. So the big question for me assuming stop bars operating, is why an aircraft crossed an illuminated stop bar, or why wasn’t the stop bar illuminated?
For those that don’t know a stop bar is a traffic light. Red = stop. do not pass.
For those whom have operated from there, in normal night conditions and operations, does the airport have illuminated stop bars at all runway holding points?
At the runway holding point was there an illuminated serviceable stop bar?
If so a vehicle/aircraft should not cross that stop bar whilst it is illuminated red, even with a entry clearance. At the hold the entry to the runway is (Uk) under the tower controller so they give the entry clearance and deselect the stop bar. The aircraft/vehicle can then enter the runway. Unless there is a verbal clearance to specifically cross an illuminated stop bar, the aircraft/vehicle should hold position.
Assuming all ATC tower coms have been released, there’s no conditional clearance to enter so stop bar should be red, and aircraft holding clear. So the big question for me assuming stop bars operating, is why an aircraft crossed an illuminated stop bar, or why wasn’t the stop bar illuminated?
For those that don’t know a stop bar is a traffic light. Red = stop. do not pass.
For those whom have operated from there, in normal night conditions and operations, does the airport have illuminated stop bars at all runway holding points?
Regarding the RWY Incursion system and Stop Bars:
NOTAM J2253/23: Tokyo Haneda International Airport (RJTT)
J2253/23 NOTAMN Q) RJJJ/QLRAS/IV/NBO/A/000/999/3533N13947E005 A) RJTT B) 2312271500 C) 2402211500 E) REF AIP SUP 225/23 ITEM TWY:2,3,4,5,6,7,10,11,12,13,33,38,44,54 TWY-CL-LGT FOR M1,R1,W11(BTN W AND R1)-U/S TWY-CL-LGT FOR E10(BEHIND SPOT 53)-PARTLY U/S TWY-CL-LGT FOR D5-U/S TWY-CL-LGT FOR A(BTN W AND A2),A(INT OF W1),A1,A2(INT OF A),W1 -PARTLY U/S TWY-CL-LGT FOR A16-U/S TWY-CL-LGT FOR K(BTN SPOT 304 AND C),R(INT OF K)-U/S TWY-CL-LGT FOR R(BTN K AND Y),R(INT OF Y)-PARTLY U/S STOP-BAR-LGT FOR C1 THRU C14-U/S TWY-CL-LGT FOR T12,T14,Q,Q1,Q2-U/S TAXIING-GUIDANCE-SIGN FOR T12,T14,Q,Q1,Q2-U/S TWY-CL-LGT FOR C(INT OF C3),C(INT OF C5)-PARTLY U/S TWY-CL-LGT FOR T(BTN T2 AND SPOT 909),T(INT OF T4),T(INT OF T6) -PARTLY U/S TWY-CL-LGT FOR C3(INT OF RWY 16L/34R)-PARTLY U/S RAPID EXIT TWY INDICATOR LGT FOR D5-U/S
Wow! Luck and the amazing cultural discipline engrained in the Japanese people seems to have combined last night to achieve something close to a miracle ?
Taxi to hold , your No 1 !! ?
Why do I peep around the HUD at night ? Aircraft are hard to see , especially smaller stationary ones .
RIP to the crew of the dash 8 .
Taxi to hold , your No 1 !! ?
Why do I peep around the HUD at night ? Aircraft are hard to see , especially smaller stationary ones .
RIP to the crew of the dash 8 .
Reading that it appears that the visual stop bars (traffic lights) were inoperative, presumably unlit, rather than illuminated and crossed with specific one time only clearances. And also taxiway centrelines in that vicinity partially unserviceable.
That’s a big hole in the Swiss cheese.
That’s a big hole in the Swiss cheese.
I think this will be THE atc instruction, moments before this accident .
Audio is very poor, so I tried my best to reliably transcript it.... this is my best shot (no pilot reply recorded):
==> BUT those wanting to give it a shot, listen to the audio in attached zip-file, before opening the 'spoiler' with my transcript
Attached zip with the audio clip containing 3 times the instruction: original / slowed down / stretched.
Edit: Jan, 3rg - 11:00z: Thanks to PukinDog for the correction of 'Tokyo Tower'
Audio is very poor, so I tried my best to reliably transcript it.... this is my best shot (no pilot reply recorded):
==> BUT those wanting to give it a shot, listen to the audio in attached zip-file, before opening the 'spoiler' with my transcript
Spoiler
Attached zip with the audio clip containing 3 times the instruction: original / slowed down / stretched.
Edit: Jan, 3rg - 11:00z: Thanks to PukinDog for the correction of 'Tokyo Tower'
Last edited by DIBO; 5th Jan 2024 at 21:41. Reason: avoiding further confusion, my 'spoiler' text proved to be incorrect
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This extended CCTV footage appears to show the full sequence of events. You can just about make out that the Dash 8 has lined up (notice the landing light coming into view as it turns onto the runway) and is sat on the runway for about 45 seconds prior to the collision. It looks like it was completely lined up on the runway, with the Airbus going straight into the back of it.
Another very important aspect to consider is the FRMS aspect and role it may have had on any and all of the participants,
pilots,atc,firies, cc.
Am certain no one will ever hear anything on this. It is public enemy number 1 in these occupations yet is treated with utter contempt by agencies,companies, regulators, unions and governments alike.
pilots,atc,firies, cc.
Am certain no one will ever hear anything on this. It is public enemy number 1 in these occupations yet is treated with utter contempt by agencies,companies, regulators, unions and governments alike.
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The video taken from the front right side evacuation of the aircraft shows clear impact damage to the radome and engine inlet cowls. The RH engine still running, with apparent failure of N1 compressor. And RH wing tank compromised and leaking fuel near the wing root, and possible engine elect wiring controls compromised which most likely hindered an engine shutdown (similar to VH-OQA SIA incident).
What I take out of all of this is the extraordinarily high workload of the flight crew during this incident, rolling out an aircraft on fire, trying to shutdown both engines after stopping, then ordering a calm evacuation around engines that may still be operating (utilising or blocking the associated emergency exits - L & R doors 2 & 3 appeared closed) by way of precise communications with crew and also ATC. All in the space of possibly less than 2 minutes in a situation that was totally unexpected, and then trying to get themselves out safely after all pax and crew evacuated.
bloody brilliant operating crew who seemed to handle the situation extraordinarily well.
I think the aircraft and engines seemed to hold up to the impact well enough until consumed by the fire. And if the fan stage was destroyed on #2 engine (which may be the case from the footage) then that was probably a blessing.
What I take out of all of this is the extraordinarily high workload of the flight crew during this incident, rolling out an aircraft on fire, trying to shutdown both engines after stopping, then ordering a calm evacuation around engines that may still be operating (utilising or blocking the associated emergency exits - L & R doors 2 & 3 appeared closed) by way of precise communications with crew and also ATC. All in the space of possibly less than 2 minutes in a situation that was totally unexpected, and then trying to get themselves out safely after all pax and crew evacuated.
bloody brilliant operating crew who seemed to handle the situation extraordinarily well.
I think the aircraft and engines seemed to hold up to the impact well enough until consumed by the fire. And if the fan stage was destroyed on #2 engine (which may be the case from the footage) then that was probably a blessing.
Last edited by Ngineer; 3rd Jan 2024 at 00:14.
This video shows the runway this morning. JA13XL appears to have ended up off to the right of the runway, partly taking out the PAPI system for 16L. Part of the tail and some of the aft section remains, so hopefully the Black Boxes weren't too badly damaged. The right-hand side of the aircraft was slightly more damaged than the left-hand side. The Dash 8 on the other hand is just a charred mess. However, it's evident that the Dash 8 was indeed lined up with the runway, as if it was waiting for a departure clearance. It'll be interesting to hear the Dash 8 Captain's version.
This shows also shows the damage in daylight, along with some other angles both inside and outside of the A350.
Last edited by VHOED191006; 3rd Jan 2024 at 00:26.
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This extended CCTV footage appears to show the full sequence of events. You can just about make out that the Dash 8 has lined up (notice the landing light coming into view as it turns onto the runway) and is sat on the runway for about 45 seconds prior to the collision. It looks like it was completely lined up on the runway, with the Airbus going straight into the back of it.
https://youtu.be/6NbVdIoJsHY?si=8uIRD7x8fFAaIzG9
https://youtu.be/6NbVdIoJsHY?si=8uIRD7x8fFAaIzG9
seems the dash burst into flames amazing the captain survived
wishing him full recovery but burns are very hard to survive
Some of the "corporate speak" and touchy feely briefs these days dilute the safety message so much it's hardly worth watching them.
Gne
Last edited by Gne; 3rd Jan 2024 at 00:56. Reason: Removed the reference to the current Qantas brief.
I do recognize that for sure this was not the main cause (not even close) to the origin of this terrible accident, but IMHO the Dash made by Bombardier its not the most iluminated plane at night, specially on a so busy airport full of rwy, twy, moving traffic, etc etc lights.
Bombardier Dash as so other acft manufacturers and models dont use the wing tip white strobe lights philosophy, only using the main fuselage anti-collision/beacons, varying btw red and white acc phase of flt/taxi, if im not mistaken.
All the best for the JCG fellow aviator recovery and may all the rest of the team find a better place...great work by the JAL crew, both cockpit, F/As ane also pax famous niponic discipline.
Bombardier Dash as so other acft manufacturers and models dont use the wing tip white strobe lights philosophy, only using the main fuselage anti-collision/beacons, varying btw red and white acc phase of flt/taxi, if im not mistaken.
All the best for the JCG fellow aviator recovery and may all the rest of the team find a better place...great work by the JAL crew, both cockpit, F/As ane also pax famous niponic discipline.