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JAL incident at Haneda Airport

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JAL incident at Haneda Airport

Old 2nd Jan 2024, 20:29
  #261 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by waito
Given that latest video is authentic we now know:

The Dash 8 was not about to enter from Twy C5! We can rule that out.
IF it was about to enter, then from Twy C6 - and at an angle. But I think entry of C6 was too far down the rwy to explain the very near impact from latest video
Most likely the Dash 8 Coast Guard aircraft already had entered from C5 and was lined up waiting stationary.

So from a visibility standpoint it was harder to detect for the A350 crew. When the incursion started and in motion, they were further away.
Agree.
Somebody very early on in the thread sarcastically commented abut the early reporting of the accident and it ‘not being related to the earthquake’.
I think we’re going to find it has EVERYTHING to do with the earthquake and the human factors related to haste is getting the Coast Guard aircraft on its way. Would be interested to know what , if any, FPL STatuS was being attributed to the CG flight.
Won’t be surprised to find a miscommunication somewhere between the Ground controller, the Runway Controller and the Coast Guard pilot leading to an inadvertent line up clearance being wrongly perceived.
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Old 2nd Jan 2024, 20:46
  #262 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ATC Watcher
Yes you are right , but as you know ADS-B is a separate box from a transponder , using either the 1090 squitter or UAT format , it is not a kind of transponder.
My ADS-B and Transponder are most certainly the same box. No separate boxes here.

In FAA advisory circular AC43-6D, "Altitude Reporting Equipment and Transponder System Maintenance and Inspection Practices", it is repeatedly referred to as an "ADS-B Transponder."

If you disagree with this use of terminology, I suggest that it would be more productive to direct your comments to Mr. Jackie Black, as he is the the current division manager of AFS-300, and has the authority to revise AC43-6D.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/jackie-black-66558a47
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Old 2nd Jan 2024, 20:47
  #263 (permalink)  
 
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An aircraft stationary on a runway is hardly visible from the rear.

at night.
looking through a hud.
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Old 2nd Jan 2024, 20:50
  #264 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by guadaMB
The main question.
¿Was the A359 STILL ALOFT in the C5 zone?
¿Isn't it not very FAR from the recommended touchdown point (cause apparently the A359 pilots were more than handly at the moment of the hurry)?
IF the collision with the Dash was in the C5 access, WHERE was the Dash facing?
C5 is NOT a crossing (to nowhere/water).
There are only two possibilities: was on the TO procedure (had to be waved and confirmed) or doing nonsense because that's not a place to HOLD.
Because it could. Stable approach. Aircraft can stop 1/3rd of runway length. I see aeroplanes landing at my airport braking harder as they have landed long. Safe landing. Aircraft on the runway? Tail nav light, maybe a beacon. Maybe a strobe. No other lights.
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Old 2nd Jan 2024, 20:52
  #265 (permalink)  
 
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This absolute tragedy should give impetus to mandating runway status lights installation around the World which are currently used at major airports in the USA and first developed after the terrible accident in LAX. A completely independent system with no human input using microwave sensors which turn on centreline lighting in the TDZ plus holding points illuminate lights RED if the runway is occupied. And whilst we are there reduce the intensity of the new LEDs. You cant see much because they're are so bright.
In this case, if it was a runway incursion, the centre line lights would have illuminated RED. Don't land.
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Old 2nd Jan 2024, 20:54
  #266 (permalink)  
 
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The DHC-8 props may have added to the A350 damage by severing lines. Let's be grateful that the hydraulics to the brakes were still working and that the crew were not incapacitated. They could have ended up in the drink or hitting more aircraft or structures.
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Old 2nd Jan 2024, 20:55
  #267 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by fox niner
An aircraft stationary on a runway is hardly visible from the rear.

at night.
looking through a hud.
Correct. Half the spotters and puddle jumper pilots have never seen a commercial airliner approach to a major airport. Done jumpseat so see the work load. No idea on if the weather was crosswinds or lumpy. So many nobodies on this thread as usual.
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Old 2nd Jan 2024, 20:57
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Originally Posted by RatherBeFlying
The DHC-8 props may have added to the A350 damage by severing lines. Let's be grateful that the hydraulics to the brakes were still working and that the crew were not incapacitated. They could have ended up in the drink or hitting more aircraft or structures.
True. 5 dead could have been nearly 400.
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Old 2nd Jan 2024, 20:58
  #269 (permalink)  
 
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JAL Collision

I won't try to speculate the cause of this horrific collision, but one thing that is obvious was the amazing speed at which the A-350 was evacuated!
A testament to the training and professionalism of the JAL Flight Attendants. Yes, the same hard working miracle workers we disrespect and abuse, as of late.
Furthermore, it was the disciplined Japanese passengers who did not try to argue or grab their belongings, following the commands of their crew. I think this may have had an entirely different outcome had it happened in the West!
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Old 2nd Jan 2024, 21:09
  #270 (permalink)  
 
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Incredible! There really is almost nothing left of the plane!

Twitter, AirportWebcams/status/1742300417277776234?t=OyXSymy86HeHyrUIAfH6NA&s=19
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Old 2nd Jan 2024, 21:10
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NHK are reporting that a source from the Transport ministry has confirmed the Dash 8 was ordered to hold short of the runway.

https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/news/20240103_07/
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Old 2nd Jan 2024, 21:12
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Originally Posted by RatherBeFlying
The DHC-8 props may have added to the A350 damage by severing lines. Let's be grateful that the hydraulics to the brakes were still working and that the crew were not incapacitated. They could have ended up in the drink or hitting more aircraft or structures.
True. 5 dead could have been nearly 400.
ITN news are so on the ball on News at Ten!
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Old 2nd Jan 2024, 21:18
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Originally Posted by Wellfan
NHK are reporting that a source from the Transport ministry has confirmed the Dash 8 was ordered to hold short of the runway.

https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/news/20240103_07/
A captain will live with the death of his mates. Feel sorry for him. Maybe the first officer had a HF. Alas the Captain is commander. Just Culture rules..
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Old 2nd Jan 2024, 21:22
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Was genuinely pleased that lessons have been learned and it took a fair bit of time to really get hold improving survivability. Airframes can be replaced. People can't

Last edited by Saab Dastard; 2nd Jan 2024 at 21:36. Reason: Quote of deleted posts removed
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Old 2nd Jan 2024, 21:23
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Hope that we get an accident report.
Currently my main questions are:
How did the Dash-8 wind up in "postion and hold" on an active landing runway? There is a clearance involved which requires a positive reply from the plane to the TWR controller.
So how did this communication broke down and why did the TWR controller lost the situational awareness?
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Old 2nd Jan 2024, 21:24
  #276 (permalink)  
 
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On FR24 there seems to be a Delta A330 holding near R34R threshold at the time the JAL aircraft was approaching to land. One must assume the Delta crew did not see the Dash 8 on the runway or they would surely have given a warning on the radio.
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Old 2nd Jan 2024, 21:28
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Nose Cone Damage

Pure speculation but given the damage to the nose cone, this wasn't from dragging along the ground, this was from impacting the Dash I would say, in which case I believe the Dash was on the runway and the A350 was perhaps still in the air (flare) and that the nose and left engine struck the Dash
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Old 2nd Jan 2024, 21:33
  #278 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by RichardJones
That A350 burnt too quickly IIMO. I am aware plastic.Is volatile but the speed of the a/c being consumed has concerned me.
I would have said exactly the opposite. They had time to evacuate 380 people even though the aircraft was on fire from the moment of collision, which damaged the underside allowing the flames to reach the cabin floor more quickly. Eventually it did go up but if you go on YouTube and look at aircraft fires on the ground, most progress much faster than this one in aircraft where the hulls are intact to begin with...
Currently my main questions are:
How did the Dash-8 wind up in "postion and hold" on an active landing runway? There is a clearance involved which requires a positive reply from the plane to the TWR controller.
So how did this communication broke down and why did the TWR controller lost the situational awareness?
Only a guess but as it was allegedly an emergency flight to the earthquake zone, maybe the “mission” led to excessive urgency and possibly a misplaced sense of priority? As for the tower controller, if the aircraft on finals and the ones near the holding point didn’t spot the incursion, then the tower stood very little chance.

Last edited by Saab Dastard; 2nd Jan 2024 at 21:40. Reason: Reference to deleted post edited
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Old 2nd Jan 2024, 21:34
  #279 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by 787PIC
I won't try to speculate the cause of this horrific collision, but one thing that is obvious was the amazing speed at which the A-350 was evacuated!
A testament to the training and professionalism of the JAL Flight Attendants. Yes, the same hard working miracle workers we disrespect and abuse, as of late.
Furthermore, it was the disciplined Japanese passengers who did not try to argue or grab their belongings, following the commands of their crew. I think this may have had an entirely different outcome had it happened in the West!

So true. Perhaps future safety briefings need to be a lot more blunt:

”In Tokyo, everyone left their bags and stuff behind … and everyone got out alive.”

Time to scrap the pc airline-corporate-speak.
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Old 2nd Jan 2024, 21:35
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Originally Posted by bluesideoops
Pure speculation but given the damage to the nose cone, this wasn't from dragging along the ground, this was from impacting the Dash I would say, in which case I believe the Dash was on the runway and the A350 was perhaps still in the air (flare) and that the nose and left engine struck the Dash
A350 on the runway stands higher than a DHC-8. Last DHC-8 to attack another aircraft was at Aberdeen.
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