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JAL incident at Haneda Airport

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JAL incident at Haneda Airport

Old 3rd Jan 2024, 09:59
  #361 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SLF3
id like to think Airbus are not that complacent. If I worked for them I'd like to understand where the fire started and how it spread. If the fire handles worked (or weren't used) and the fuel tanks were leaking then a brandy and bed. If not, espresso and a night studying logic diagrams. There is always something to learn / improve.
I don't think there will be an ounce of complacency whatsoever and that is not what I was implying, in fact I wasn't implying anything save for the overall design parameters that were set for fire-resistance and structual intergrity apperared tp perform to brief - and, a good starting point to examine further and reach new conclusions as to finessing design decisions going forward.
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Old 3rd Jan 2024, 10:00
  #362 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by EDML
According to this ICAO document: (page 14) they have SMR.
SMR is a very basic equipment lacking of sophistication (add-ons).
It would be very interesting to know exactly what kind of ATC- and Safety equipment Haneda ATC/Airport has today (time of accident)?

Today, we speak much more of A-SMGCS or MLAT, which is state of art - technology-wise. At least in Europe and North America for all big major international airports.
A-SMGCS (Advanced Surface Movement Guidance & Control System) is a system providing routing, guidance and surveillance for the control of aircraft and vehicles.
MLAT or Multi-Lateration is permitting the tracking of aircraft and all the vehicles on the airport.
(My comment: as with A-SMGCS, MLAT has "Labels" or (call-signs) attached to the track/blips on GROUND (on the airport, including taxiways and even sometimes part of the apron)).

All these systems "ground systems" are normally fitted with Safety Nets (Alerts/Warnings), a common tool here is RIMCAS (Runway Incursion Monitoring and Conflict Alert System).
RIMCAS emits visual and as well audio alerts if an runway intrusion is detected (according to parametrization).
More sophisticated systems at some airports (see i.e. Paris CDG, or many US airports) even have RWSL (Runway Status Lights).
A new system using a multitude of surveillance data sources, incl. as well ADS-B (i.e. for incoming aircraft approaching the runway - similar to the JAL Airbus 350 at Haneda).
The RWSL is giving visual clues (additonal to the ATC-clearance) for the crew operating close to runways (including aircraft landing or taking-off).
Statement by the FAA: Runway Status Lights is a fully automatic, advisory system designed to reduce the number and severity of runway incursions and prevent runway accidents while not interfering with airport operations.
It is designed to be compatible with existing procedures and is comprised of Runway Entrance Lights (RELs) and Takeoff Hold Lights (THLs).

Means (my comment): Listen and follow ATC-clearances and the visual clues given by RWSL will confirm the ATC clearance "normally" (if doubt/discrepancy - inquire ATC... Confirm.....)...

So, it would be very helpful if somebody could give us here all the equipment/tools of the Tower/GND of Haneda ATC. If Haneda airport has in 2023 "only" SMR, that would surprise me a lot...
Fact is that the Dash-8 sat about roughly 45 seconds on the same spot (on the runway) before the JAL A350 came in for landing...

Thanks a lot Chris
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Old 3rd Jan 2024, 10:02
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I am pretty convinced, if the DH3 was lined up, the A350 coming from behind would not see the Dash on the runway. The aircraft is just to small and probably the wing tips of the Dash might overlap with the threshold lights or other light markings, from the A350 Cockpits the lights may be just merged. Were the strobes on of the DH3? Maybe not, as they were not CLRD T/O.

The rotation was not complete. the A350 nose was still having some degree up on impact - which I believe saved the A350 pilots life - The tail of the Dash truck the radome and ripped off the nose gear and not the cockpit window

Engine number 2 (right) was still running on idle thrust. Thrust was forward and reverser were not yet engaged, which clearly shows that the collision came a blink of an eye before activating reverse thrust, otherwise the right forward slide would have been in trouble. The running engine most probably led to the fact that rear slide right was not deployed. Luck for the pax and the evacuation.
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Old 3rd Jan 2024, 10:03
  #364 (permalink)  
 
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Does the HUD really have that logo "TheEyeintheCloud" written across the bottom in real use? Or is that just a promo video addition? An astonishing distraction if it does!
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Old 3rd Jan 2024, 10:04
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Originally Posted by andrasz
  • Stop bar and taxiway lighting INOP.
Apologies I've missed this in the sea of chat but have you got a source for that ?
It seems unusual that even if they were INOP, the Dash 8 would simply proceed on to the runway and line up and wait. Would be interesting to hear the sequence of radio transmissions.

Last edited by silverelise; 3rd Jan 2024 at 10:21.
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Old 3rd Jan 2024, 10:08
  #366 (permalink)  
 
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Pretty clear, from the avherald latest entry (not the comments):
"According to ATC recordings the A359 as well as a number of other aircraft departing runway 34R were handed off to Tower Frequency 118.725MHz, however, the Coast Guard DH8C was handed off to tower at 124.350MHz. JL-516, upon being handed off to tower by approach, was told by tower to "continue approach", about 90 seconds later tower cleared the aircraft to land.
Haneda Airport resumed operations on their runways 16R/34L, 04/22 and 05/23 at about 21:30L (12:30Z) about 3:45 hours after the accident while runway 16L/34R remains closed.
On Jan 3rd 2024 Japan's Ministry of Transport said, that the DH8C had received instructions to proceed as far as he could (editorial note: presumably to taxi to runway 05 for takeoff from that runway), the coast guard captain by his own testimony however understood this instruction as takeoff clearance, lined up runway 34R instead leading to the collision. The JTSB is investigating the occurrence.
On Jan 3rd 2024 the JTSB reported one of the black boxes of the DH8C have already been recovered, the blackboxes of the A359 are yet to be recovered."
source: https://avherald.com/h?article=5132b9fe&opt=0
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Old 3rd Jan 2024, 10:08
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Originally Posted by silverelise
Apologies I've missed this in the see of chat but have you got a source for that ?
It seems unusual that even if they were INOP, the Dash 8 would simply proceed on to the runway and line up and wait. Would be interesting to hear the sequence of radio transmissions.
NOTAM #11 and #12 Haneda Apt. Valid thru March 2024
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Old 3rd Jan 2024, 10:09
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Lost in translation :/
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Old 3rd Jan 2024, 10:14
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Much enthusiasm to praise the cabin crew and procedural training on the evacuation results.
It is about about 17 that years since my last safety school refresher, but I understood keeping calm and staying seated was a no no and in some instances those that made a beeline for exits lived and those that did not move, perished.
The reviews of the verbal announceme nts and facts surrounding the cabin address system function, evacuation signal and why so few slide deployments will be a topic will need to be answered.
The cabin video shows fire outside, the aircraft is in an abnormal attitude and yet passengers are not moving, prompted me to write the above.
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Old 3rd Jan 2024, 10:14
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Originally Posted by xcris
On Jan 3rd 2024 Japan's Ministry of Transport said, that the DH8C had received instructions to proceed as far as he could (editorial note: presumably to taxi to runway 05 for takeoff from that runway), the coast guard captain by his own testimony however understood this instruction as takeoff clearance, lined up runway 34R instead leading to the collision. The JTSB is investigating the occurrence.
On Jan 3rd 2024 the JTSB reported one of the black boxes of the DH8C have already been recovered, the blackboxes of the A359 are yet to be recovered."
ATC told them "go as far as you can"? I don't think that was the real instruction. Never heard of such an instruction ;-)
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Old 3rd Jan 2024, 10:15
  #371 (permalink)  
 
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The otherwise fully warranted SOP of not using strobes until the beginning of T/O roll did not help in this case
All of the Airlines I have worked at have an SOP that strobes go on entering the runway, even if you are just crossing so I don’t think the SOP of turning them on when starting the take off roll is the most common method of managing the strobes. Am I wrong?
On a different note, I know that personally having stop bars u/s at a place where there is normally stop bars is a huge threat for runway incursion. If I see that NOTAM I make special mention of it in the take-off brief and encourage the f/o to remind me as we approach the runway. Other people probably aren’t effected in the same way but I know it’s a threat for me.
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Old 3rd Jan 2024, 10:20
  #372 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by silverelise
Apologies I've missed this in the see of chat but have you got a source for that ?
It seems unusual that even if they were INOP, the Dash 8 would simply proceed on to the runway and line up and wait. Would be interesting to hear the sequence of radio transmissions.
Related Notam also posted in the first half of this thread.
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Old 3rd Jan 2024, 10:22
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Old 3rd Jan 2024, 10:24
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Originally Posted by framer
All of the Airlines I have worked at have an SOP that strobes go on entering the runway, even if you are just crossing so I don’t think the SOP of turning them on when starting the take off roll is the most common method of managing the strobes. Am I wrong?
On a different note, I know that personally having stop bars u/s at a place where there is normally stop bars is a huge threat for runway incursion. If I see that NOTAM I make special mention of it in the take-off brief and encourage the f/o to remind me as we approach the runway. Other people probably aren’t effected in the same way but I know it’s a threat for me.
Coast Guard is probably not the "All airlines SOP". Maybe they have special SOP like Air Forces and Air Rescue have - only speculation ;-)
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Old 3rd Jan 2024, 10:28
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Presumably the MLG were on the ground when the Dash 8 tail was hit, and therefore ploughed straight through the Dash fuselage (gruesome thought)? It seems amazing to me that they remained intact.
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Old 3rd Jan 2024, 10:31
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Originally Posted by framer
All of the Airlines I have worked at have an SOP that strobes go on entering the runway, even if you are just crossing so I donít think the SOP of turning them on when starting the take off roll is the most common method of managing the strobes. Am I wrong?

You arenít wrong, Iíve flown Dash 8s for 4 different airlines and their SOPs are to turn the strobes on when cleared to enter a runway or crossing, and they donít go off until vacated the runway at the destination.

The Dash 8 also has a stobe light on the tail cone that faces rearwards. If the strobes were on and the visibility was reasonable, they certainly should have been visible to the controller and the JAL crew at some stage before the collision.

Last edited by Duck Pilot; 3rd Jan 2024 at 11:12.
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Old 3rd Jan 2024, 10:37
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Originally Posted by PukinDog
On your transcript I think the Controller is saying "Tokyo Tower" after the CG callsign and before "good evening".
I also believe you're right about the instruction and "abeam" could have used more clarification. That said, there was no mention of runway, as in "Runway 34R, Line up and wait".
Of course, I was tunnel-visioned on 'Haneda Tower' as TWR callsign which didn't fit the recording, but 'Tokyo Tower' it is.
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Old 3rd Jan 2024, 10:38
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Originally Posted by MartinM
ATC told them "go as far as you can"? I don't think that was the real instruction. Never heard of such an instruction ;-)
Yup. Doesn't sum up with the fact they were on 34R, while they were bound for 05 (?), either. 05 makes sense for a light a/c departure and the reported METAR at the time (RJTT 020830Z VRB03KT 9999 FEW020 SCT090 08/04 Q1016 BECMG TL0900 30006KT=), but it is pretty far from where they actually were and seems very hard to get confused so bad. Maybe C5 (holding point)?

Last edited by xcris; 3rd Jan 2024 at 11:50.
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Old 3rd Jan 2024, 10:38
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Originally Posted by Iron Duck
A video shot from the adjoining taxiway appears to show the A350 not fully de-rotated when the explosion occurs. Given the aircraft's length, that could place the flight deck several metres higher than when the NLG is on the ground. I wouldn't be surprised if this is what saved not only the flight deck crew but the whole complement.
Almost as if the MLG of the A350 has touched down just aft of the Dash's engines (or even right on top of them) and that's what's ripped through the whole lot and the MLG has dragged the fireball along the runway.
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Old 3rd Jan 2024, 10:39
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Originally Posted by KABOY
Please tell me how a HUD assists in situational awareness in clear conditions? Great for CAT2 or CAT3 ..
SOPS are agreed on the ground sitting around a table that is not moving.
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