Tui runway excursion at Leeds Bradford 20/10/23
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Yes, probably. That relates to the comments above, not necessarily to this incident. The other thing of course, is "fly" the aeroplane, right until its stopped, and don't let the wind get under the upwind wing, or it'll get very squirrelly. Again, not necessarily wrt this incident (although I vaguely recall in the press, an eyewitness comment that it looked like a hard landing, and the wings were not level, or something to that effect.)
You may be right! I've deleted the post you quoted. Internet research does not strongly support the veering of increased gusts theory.
Last edited by Discorde; 26th Oct 2023 at 08:58. Reason: comment removed
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I’m guessing if you stuffed up and blocked the runway in a way that made recovery of the aircraft a lengthy process, then the airport reserves the right to do whatever it takes to get the runway open again?
Kai Tak blowing the tail off the 744 that went into drink in the 90s springs to mind. I’m sure reading somewhere if they’d not done that, it might have been salvageable as it was almost brand new.
Kai Tak blowing the tail off the 744 that went into drink in the 90s springs to mind. I’m sure reading somewhere if they’d not done that, it might have been salvageable as it was almost brand new.
So here you go
(It was moved in time)
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Thankfully LBA gave TUI a bit longer than that to move their 738 but it’s an interesting one. I guess if you’ve really stuffed it up and wrecked the airframe/engines then it doesn’t really matter if you get the bulldozer out.
Though it didn't stop Arthur Hailey's airport manager from threatening to do the same to a (IIRC) 707, before Joe P stepped in and saved the day. As engineers often do, and not just in films.
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Not true 1/2 the headwind and all of the gust factor upto +15 or placard-5. So you could have + 15 added to VREF on a gusty day.
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Leeds is not your average airport. I regularly used to operate into LBA and was based there for a few years. It points the wrong way, it’s high up, the runway surface is rough as guts and the alleged runway gradients don’t really match reality. Combine that lot with the local topology which means that whenever there is any wind it’s horrible. This airfield was probably the most difficult I’ve flown into (inc. LCY & FLR). I was very fortunate that the aircraft I flew into LBA were easy to fly and handle on the ground. They also didn’t require much runway. The Jet 2 and Ryanair crews used to make landing there look simple although they did use most of the runway (why waste it) to rollout. But even these guys had to work hard on windy days (which invariably meant gusty crosswinds and turbulence.
What really surprises me about LBA is why there haven’t been more near misses and runway excursions. My suggestion would be build over the place and move it lock, stock and barrel to either Finningley or somewhere flat on the Vale of York that’s flat and points the right way. Maybe somewhere with proper road and rail connections, like a real transport hub?
What really surprises me about LBA is why there haven’t been more near misses and runway excursions. My suggestion would be build over the place and move it lock, stock and barrel to either Finningley or somewhere flat on the Vale of York that’s flat and points the right way. Maybe somewhere with proper road and rail connections, like a real transport hub?
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Crosswind, not headwind! If there's no head component, (90° across), then i you should NOT be adding an approach speed wind additive, and if you do, you are operating completely outside your performance calculation and risk an overrun (you can manually increase from the +5kt on the Boeing opt vref entry if you insist on adding speed anyway, but even that, I think it's supposed to be washed off prior to touchdown, from memory).
Last edited by midnight cruiser; 27th Oct 2023 at 21:34.
What really surprises me about LBA is why there haven’t been more near misses and runway excursions. My suggestion would be build over the place and move it lock, stock and barrel to either Finningley or somewhere flat on the Vale of York that’s flat and points the right way. Maybe somewhere with proper road and rail connections, like a real transport hub?
Expect any references to the challenges of operating at LBA to be very oblique.
Tui runway excursion at Leeds Bradford 20/10.23
Retired over a decade ago and even forgetting to match me socks these days , B o r t , who "categorized" airfields in the past ? Was it the UK CAA, Aerad/Jep etc.. I seem to recall Cat A meant you just went in & out without much bother. Cat B required a full crew brief and Cat C required special training, airfield visit plus check ride.
Places like Kathmandu, HK (in the really old days) etc were Cat C.
Leeds should have been Cat C these days given the foregoing discussion and history.
My co-jo days on Viscounts were tough enough and Captains giving the inbound leg away, quite rare, until they got to know you,. Oh, AND liked you. (I hardly ever got an inbound leg. Actually, even outbound was rare......Mmmmmmmmmm.........
My fave employer required verbal briefing on all airfields but moderated the content depending on degree of difficulty.. Cat C was no messing,like Funchal.
Fave FO was ex RAF LIghtenings. Listened to me going on & on about a CAT A place and when I finished with "Any Questions", exhausted, he just offered;" Oh, blimey, can't we just go in and Land ?" - !
Ok, decided not to wear any socks today.
Places like Kathmandu, HK (in the really old days) etc were Cat C.
Leeds should have been Cat C these days given the foregoing discussion and history.
My co-jo days on Viscounts were tough enough and Captains giving the inbound leg away, quite rare, until they got to know you,. Oh, AND liked you. (I hardly ever got an inbound leg. Actually, even outbound was rare......Mmmmmmmmmm.........
My fave employer required verbal briefing on all airfields but moderated the content depending on degree of difficulty.. Cat C was no messing,like Funchal.
Fave FO was ex RAF LIghtenings. Listened to me going on & on about a CAT A place and when I finished with "Any Questions", exhausted, he just offered;" Oh, blimey, can't we just go in and Land ?" - !
Ok, decided not to wear any socks today.
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Oh dear!
Crosswind, not headwind! If there's no head component, (90° across), then i you should NOT be adding an approach speed wind additive, and if you do, you are operating completely outside your performance calculation and risk an overrun (you can manually increase from the +5kt on the Boeing opt vref entry if you insist on adding speed anyway, but even that, I think it's supposed to be washed off prior to touchdown, from memory).
Crosswind, not headwind! If there's no head component, (90° across), then i you should NOT be adding an approach speed wind additive, and if you do, you are operating completely outside your performance calculation and risk an overrun (you can manually increase from the +5kt on the Boeing opt vref entry if you insist on adding speed anyway, but even that, I think it's supposed to be washed off prior to touchdown, from memory).
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One needs to ask themselves why an increase in speed is being added for gusts and why you would suddenly not do it just because it is a cross wind. Do those variations in airspeed suddenly stop happening? As for it being a very challenging airport, one might want to plan in advance to lower their own personal limits at this location(asuming they are aware of it's difficulty in advance). Heavy rain and strong crosswind.....that's an issue at any airport.
The add-ons are designed to counter horizontal windshear effects (wind strength decreasing as the ground is neared) and apply only to headwind component to counter loss of lift resulting from slow change to 'inertial' groundspeed.
In the company I worked for landings on the unlengthened runway were 'captains only'. So once in the LHS your first LBA landing was your first ever as handler.
Exciting times!
Exciting times!
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Interesting to see different interpretations of the application of Gust additives.
From the FCTM
"Add 1/2 of the reported steady headwind component plus the full Gust increment above the steady wind to the reference speed"
"1/2 half of the reported steady headwind component can be estimated by using 50% for a direct headwind, 35% for a 45⁰ crosswind, zero for a direct crosswind"
For those saying you shouldn't use the Gust correction for a 90⁰ gusty crosswind, tell us where that is mentioned in the FCTM?
And how would apply corrections in the following scenarios
Rwy 36
Wind 089/10G20
&
Wind 090/10G20
From the FCTM
"Add 1/2 of the reported steady headwind component plus the full Gust increment above the steady wind to the reference speed"
"1/2 half of the reported steady headwind component can be estimated by using 50% for a direct headwind, 35% for a 45⁰ crosswind, zero for a direct crosswind"
For those saying you shouldn't use the Gust correction for a 90⁰ gusty crosswind, tell us where that is mentioned in the FCTM?
And how would apply corrections in the following scenarios
Rwy 36
Wind 089/10G20
&
Wind 090/10G20
As of the early hours of Saturday morning, it’s sitting on a stand at LBA awaiting a double engine change. Engineer I was talking to said there’s too much grit and stones to wash then out (Boeings suggestion, apparently) without risking damage.
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haha - amazing, thanks!