Accidents and Close Calls Discussion on accidents, close calls, and other unplanned aviation events, so we can learn from them, and be better pilots ourselves.

Qatar Airways Near CFIT

Old 9th Feb 2023, 10:44
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Often in Jersey, but mainly in the past.
Age: 79
Posts: 7,803
Received 135 Likes on 63 Posts
A couple of holiday snaps on a DOH departure suggest there's no shortage of visual cues, certainly at the early stage of a departure.

MPN11 is offline  
Old 9th Feb 2023, 18:08
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: An Airport Near You
Posts: 672
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by MPN11
A couple of holiday snaps on a DOH departure suggest there's no shortage of visual cues, certainly at the early stage of a departure.

The first picture is northbound. The incident aircraft departed 16L so as soon as the left turn initiated you're into the blackness over the sea. Not defending them, just providing some context.
360BakTrak is offline  
Old 9th Feb 2023, 18:56
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: New jersey
Posts: 220
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
I can tell you that those lighted roads in the lower picture can cause some spatial disorientation. Flying into New Orleans, there is a road that crosses a large waterway, and its direction and vector will mess with your senses. It’s similar to Air to Air Refueling with a sloping cloud deck. You may be in level flight, but the cloud-deck makes one feel as if in a bank. Dangerous.
Chiefttp is offline  
Old 10th Feb 2023, 01:44
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: Here, there and everywhere
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by HeathrowAirport
The mind boggles. I've FDJ'd a B788/B789 when I was CCW and it's without doubt the best setup I've ever seen.

Qatars policy is to use the HUD right? I wonder if VMC at night over water, using the HUD and got into spatial disorientation as it states the flight director was off?
The HUD is predominantly used only for LV approach’s though, why would you use it on a night VMC departure?
WhyWhyWhy... is offline  
Old 10th Feb 2023, 02:26
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Pacific Rim
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by RatherBeFlying
Kudos to the commander for catching the problem in time.
​​​​​​
After a "1000" auto aural call out and a "terrain terrain" warning?
Heavy Metal is offline  
Old 10th Feb 2023, 06:08
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 2,513
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Automation dependency rears its ugly head again.
Check Airman is offline  
Old 10th Feb 2023, 06:12
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 2,513
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Heavy Metal
After a "1000" auto aural call out and a "terrain terrain" warning?
When I’m inside messing with the fms, I don’t expect the other guy to suffer spatial disorientation.

I’ve never flown with a HUD. Could the FO have been looking through the hud at something in the background and ignoring the symbology? If that’s a possibility, it seems you’d be better off looking at the PFD.

On the earlier question of HUDs, I recall reading some time ago that dual HUDs are standard on the 787.
Check Airman is offline  
Old 10th Feb 2023, 09:13
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Canuckland
Posts: 74
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Sounds like something that has happened before and will continue to do so.

Captain heads down trying to find the direct to waypoint. Keep in mind the SIDs out of DOH have lots of closely spaced points and the direct to's there can be on the second/third legs page. Can take longer than usual to find the point and bring it to the top.

Effo decides he will start turn in the approximate direction of the cleared to point. Poor guy banks 25, neglects to keep pitch up (I'm unaware of the trim characteristics on the 787 but the 737 needs manual pitch and/or trim inputs). Transition from peripheral city visual cues off to the right with a turn into a black hole with randomly spaced lit ships off the coast. Down goes the nose.

Where's that point. Ah got it. Heads up and GPWS warning. Whatcha doin' there buddy? Oh crap. I have control!!!

Question is much before the terrain alert there should be a don't sink aural. That should've prevented the supposed 3000fpm and late identification of loss of altitude.
FalseGS is offline  
Old 10th Feb 2023, 11:11
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: East of Westralia
Posts: 681
Received 107 Likes on 31 Posts
Originally Posted by WhyWhyWhy...
The HUD is predominantly used only for LV approach’s though, why would you use it on a night VMC departure?
We use it for all operations below 10,000’.

Do you turn off / dim your PFD for VMC departures? Of course not - use all available instrumentation…
ScepticalOptomist is offline  
Old 10th Feb 2023, 13:52
  #30 (permalink)  
Pegase Driver
 
Join Date: May 1997
Location: Europe
Age: 73
Posts: 3,669
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
It indeed has killed many. But honestly , why it has to continue? Banking hard looking down whether it is a a black hole or at a point of interest you are likely to end up in a spiral dive at one point or another since the beginning of flying. and basically at low level you should seriously monitor your turns . This used to be basic PPL hand flying knowledge
Punching numbers or waypoints right after take off while banking on manual at night over the sea is not a bright idea,. Why they became complacent in thinking it was ok to do ? too easy aircraft that 99% of the time fly by itself ?
When I was a student pilot in the air force , the briefing after our very first nav solo on the jet was a reminder on the rule that it was absolutely prohibited to fly above parents or girl friend house on the way back. . Reason was too many young guys got killed and/or crashed aircraft in wanting to say hello, banking hard above the house. while looking at the people waving on the ground. That was 50 years ago, I wonder if this rule still exists...
ATC Watcher is offline  
Old 10th Feb 2023, 14:37
  #31 (permalink)  
fdr
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: 3rd Rock, #29B
Posts: 2,951
Received 856 Likes on 256 Posts
Talking

Originally Posted by 22/04
Would most continue to destination if flap limiting speed had been exceeded? Not sure I would be happy as pax.

it isn't the overspeed of the flaps itself that is the problem, it is the better than even chance that the crew when confronted with the next alert for the overspeed end up retracting the flaps while overspeeding... It is a small minority of crews that don't compound overspeeds by flicking switches levers and bell cranks into eye pleasing order, instead of just correcting the flight path. The system is pretty tolerant, if abused enough stuff falls off but more often than not it is remarkably benign. There were the two checkers in a B74F competing for the lowest rung that flicked the flaps just so and the ind RH trailing element came off did a pirouette/flettnery thingy and speared into the fuselage at 90 degrees like a lawn dart. Post shut down, "Nil Defects", but the maintenance engineer noticed the rearranged flaps. Failed in overload... biggly! Ferried back home with lotsa speed tape de-press'd, and got parted out, cancelled the amendment service for the applicable AMM/AFM etc.. Blenders flew again... gear did too. flaps... not so much.
fdr is offline  
Old 10th Feb 2023, 15:37
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: London Under EGLL(LHR) 27R ILS
Age: 31
Posts: 500
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I've got a picture I took from the 4th FDJ in the cruise at Sunset of the HUD. FWIW (Probably nothing)

I just read from another source, that when the Captain was playing with the FMS, the FO wasn't following the commands of the FD as he made an earlier turn of what would be the direction of travel. So the earlier reports or as per AvHerald of missing FD are incorrect. The aircraft I fly for IFR ventures don't have FD as we don't have a digital autopilot, so limited to flying without guidance - I suspect a huge somatogravic illusion happened to the FO who wasn't expecting incorrect FPV or FD indications? Not giving excuses to the FO, but do you get the transition of turbulence crossing the land to the cooler sea like you do at most place which makes looking at the HUD a bit more disor

P.s. I think it's standard Boeing Procedure to use the HUD in all phases of flight.



B789 HUD




Originally Posted by Commander Taco
The article is not well written but I’m not sure the flight directors were off.

the first officer attempted to turn towards that waypoint flying manually and without flight director indications (the captain was slow to put the Direct into the FMS) but lost situational awareness sending the”

I think it likely that the flight directors were on and as the captain was slow inputting the “direct to”, in the absence of a roll command the f/o began a turn. The whole thing is still hard to fathom. I mean, the fly-by-wire system automatically compensates for the higher wing-loading generated in a turn - there is no need to apply control column back pressure until 30° of bank is exceeded.
Originally Posted by WhyWhyWhy...
The HUD is predominantly used only for LV approach’s though, why would you use it on a night VMC departure?
HeathrowAirport is offline  
Old 11th Feb 2023, 03:38
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: East of Westralia
Posts: 681
Received 107 Likes on 31 Posts
So between a HUD and a PFD, a turn to a heading without the use of the flight directors should not be a difficult task. This incident boggles the mind unless the pilot flying was incapacitated somehow.

ScepticalOptomist is offline  
Old 13th Feb 2023, 15:01
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: where I lay my hat
Posts: 151
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Or dog tired?!
midnight cruiser is offline  
Old 13th Feb 2023, 15:59
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Here, there, and everywhere
Posts: 1,121
Likes: 0
Received 12 Likes on 7 Posts
News is talking about a United near accident now....

United Airlines plane taking off from Maui plunged to within 800 feet of the Pacific Ocean, flight data shows (msn.com)
punkalouver is offline  
Old 13th Feb 2023, 17:31
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: UK
Posts: 65
Received 2 Likes on 1 Post
Originally Posted by punkalouver
Thread here https://www.pprune.org/accidents-clo...near-cfit.html
paulross is offline  
Old 19th Feb 2023, 15:54
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Poole
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
FWIW on the queen of the skies, (which sometimes took a few seconds to work out direct to) we would goto HDG SEL spin the heading dial to something like the right direction, giving the correct flight director readings. When PM and the FMS have worked out the precise direction, PF glanced down at the nav display, agrees it's correct, PM activates it and they switch back to NAV mode. Simples!
100Series is offline  
Old 19th Feb 2023, 18:39
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: EU
Posts: 616
Received 61 Likes on 35 Posts
Originally Posted by 100Series
FWIW on the queen of the skies, (which sometimes took a few seconds to work out direct to) we would goto HDG SEL spin the heading dial to something like the right direction, giving the correct flight director readings. When PM and the FMS have worked out the precise direction, PF glanced down at the nav display, agrees it's correct, PM activates it and they switch back to NAV mode. Simples!
And safe. Overriding the FD less so. Not hard at all to over-control and induce a somewhat unusual attitude. Especially if doing it at night whilst the PM is head down and until they have finished playing Candy Crunch with the FMS. Bad practice.
Torquetalk is offline  
Old 25th Feb 2023, 02:34
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Eu
Posts: 339
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Originally Posted by 100Series
FWIW on the queen of the skies, (which sometimes took a few seconds to work out direct to) we would goto HDG SEL spin the heading dial to something like the right direction, giving the correct flight director readings. When PM and the FMS have worked out the precise direction, PF glanced down at the nav display, agrees it's correct, PM activates it and they switch back to NAV mode. Simples!
This is good practice and recommended in Boeing ftm , no need to rush fms selection when a perfectly good map display is available together with hdg Sel .
Jack D is offline  
Old 25th Feb 2023, 10:18
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Between a rock and a hard place
Posts: 1,267
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
It's also good practice to now how to execute a climbing turn with reference to instruments.
172_driver is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.