LATAM A320 ground collision at SPJC

[Sallyann1234]

LATAM A320 hits Fire Truck on runway

Fire truck on active runway. Fire staff killed.

https://www.itemfix.com/v?t=f6okrp

[Fortissimo]

You Tube

[FUMR]

eagle 21

That depends on if it's a statement or a question.

[Fortissimo]

Besides the runway incursion (incorrect presence) whether 'authorised' or not, there are questions about the length of time it appears to take to start an evacuation which should have been completed in 90 seconds per CS25.803. There is footage of pax still leaving the aircraft after ARFF has knocked down and then extinguished the fire. (Hats off to them, it must have been obvious that their colleagues had been involved, which would have been a real distraction. The footage also shows - yet again - people evacuating with cabin bags and stopping to take video...

[Denti]

Originally Posted by Pilot DAR

As a volunteer firefighter, I drove any of a number of different fire trucks to emergency calls, there is an adrenaline rush in the response, and you can let your guard down at the wrong time. I could drive at highway speed for fifteen minutes, so lots of opportunity for something to go wrong. We had very few bumps with the trucks during all those years, and none serious, but there were so many times it could have been really bad - particularly at train level crossings. Sad, very sad, and I have empathy for the firefighters, sometimes you just forget something....

I would expect that in a volunteer, and i am absolutely grateful to those willing to spend their time and effort, not to mention risking their health, to help others. I do hold professionals, in any occupation, to a higher standard, even more so if they are professionals in a special environment that an airport certainly is. Basic runway safety demands at least a visual „safe and clear“ check before entering a runway, no matter if you have a clearance as ATCOs do mistakes as well. That should be part of their training, and as it is their job to work on and around aircraft that has to be constantly reinforced.

For those times I have been flying TCAS equipped airplanes (uncommon for me) I've always been a little surprised and amused at proximity warnings about airplanes taxiing on a parallel taxiway when I was on the runway. I now see value for TCAS in all airport vehicles which could plausibly access a runway - the driver would at least get a warning!

That shouldn’t happen. A correct TCAS and transponder installation automatically sets the ground flag and is then not displayed on the (correctly installed) TCAS of other planes. There are a few airports already that have (mode-s) transponders installed on every vehicle for ground control purposes and those have the ground flag set as well.

[FUMR]

It was daylight and relatively good visibility. The fire truck is facing the A320 as it approaches the runway. What is perplexing is how the heck did he not see the aircraft in time? And when he did, why attempt evasive action to the right and not to the left. We will never know the answers.

[fab777]

I may sound a little harsh or insensitive, but I am not surprised this happens in LIM, from my experience, and the pilot reports from my collegues: ATC there is always pushing you with the order "expedite", both at take off and landing, like they had a traffic similar to ATL to pass. They call you to order you to a shorter exit while you're still at 100 kts decelerating, they pressure you to line up and take off each and every time. Saddened, but not surprised.

[fab777]

Originally Posted by JanetFlight

Does anyone knows if Lima ARFFS operates under the policy "one runway, one language, one frequency", or not?
(at least in spanish, supposing both ATC'ers, Fiers and Pilots were spanish language-natives)

They speak in Spanish in LIM, but as you pointed out, not relevant here

[Pilot DAR]

Comment about post locations: Events which we all agree are accidents, and intended to be discussed in this forum, rather than R&N. Sure, when it happens, it's news, but after a while, it's still an accident, worthy of discussion, and not so much news anymore. W're not going to have the same event being simultaneously discussed in two different forums, it's just too much work to make sense out of, and moderate. So if you'd like to discuss an accident, here is the best place. Accidents which are first posted in R&N will be moved here, with a redirect message left in the original forum for a day or so to point readers to this forum.

Thanks for your support in keeping things on topic, and tidy here...

Pilot DAR

[A0283]

Video of impact itself

Impact

[ShyTorque]

The video makes chilling viewing. Although it’s not perfectly clear, it seems to me that two other vehicles also entered the runway but passed down the starboard side of the aircraft.

[JanetFlight]

Clip from the inside...

Twitter

[FUMR]

Looking at that, I guess they were not that far from VR. I think it's fair to say that the A320 crew did a good job.

[A320 Glider]

Question, had the crew decided to continue the takeoff, would we be looking at a fatal outcome as the crew attempted an emergency return?

[jumpseater]

Originally Posted by Pilot DAR

For those times I have been flying TCAS equipped airplanes (uncommon for me) I've always been a little surprised and amused at proximity warnings about airplanes taxiing on a parallel taxiway when I was on the runway. I now see value for TCAS in all airport vehicles which could plausibly access a runway - the driver would at least get a warningj!

There are already systems in use to prevent runway incursions. One type has a sensor based on the runway strip/holding points which gives an intrusive and clear audio warning to the driver approaching the runway, regardless if it’s active or not. Unfortunately it would likely have been of little use here due to the speed and momentum of the vehicle.

It’ll be interesting to see:

If aircraft cleared for take off.

If the fire crews monitor the runway frequency and ground simultaneously, especially if they are not bandboxed.

If the ground/runway frequencies aren’t combined what co-ordination occurred/didn’t occur in ATC to allow the runway entry by the fire crews. Were stopbars extant, activated, deactivated, or unserviceable?

Fire cab ergonomics, once rolling fast, are the comms able to be heard?

Fire crew training, current/adequate/familiarity? a whole Swiss cheese of options raising their head here.

[Pilot DAR]

Question, had the crew decided to continue the takeoff, would we be looking at a fatal outcome as the crew attempted an emergency return?

The emergency return would have been to earth, through and beyond the overrun, not a circuit. That airplane was no longer capable of controlled flight.

[Diff Tail Shim]

Originally Posted by A320 Glider

Question, had the crew decided to continue the takeoff, would we be looking at a fatal outcome as the crew attempted an emergency return?

The aircraft had one engine and it's landing gear ripped off. It wasn't flying anywhere. Lucky the hull stayed intacted.

[ATC Watcher]

Originally Posted by jumpseater

There are already systems in use to prevent runway incursions. One type has a sensor based on the runway strip/holding points which gives an intrusive and clear audio warning to the driver approaching the runway, regardless if it’s active or not. Unfortunately it would likely have been of little use here due to the speed and momentum of the vehicle.

It’ll be interesting to see:

If aircraft cleared for take off.

If the fire crews monitor the runway frequency and ground simultaneously, especially if they are not bandboxed.

If the ground/runway frequencies aren’t combined what co-ordination occurred/didn’t occur in ATC to allow the runway entry by the fire crews. Were stopbars extant, activated, deactivated, or unserviceable?

Fire cab ergonomics, once rolling fast, are the comms able to be heard?

Fire crew training, current/adequate/familiarity? a whole Swiss cheese of options raising their head here.

There are many systems aimed at preventing runway incursions , not sure which model they have in LIM and if it was active, but looking at the videos, the truck was at full speed and any alarm sounding in the TWR would've not made much difference
To answer some of your questions based on a normal international airport ::
1-a/c cleared for take off : Tape will confirm that , but I assume it was.
2-Fire Trucks are normally on ground frequency only , but can be instructed to switch to TWR when penetrating a runway , and to be on the same frequency of the crew of the aircraft they are attending to.
3- Stopbars, were most probably active if they have them in LIM , but a fire truck responding to an emergency can cross them ONLY if they get authorization by GND ATC..
4- Frequency loud enough to be heard in cab ; yes,
5- Training . Yes and is normally very high nowadays.
One thing on the first video surprised me, if that the Fire chief ( the pick-up car) is rather far behind the 2 fire trucks. Not really the norm.

One of the R/T transcript poste earlier, it is difficult to draw a correct picture as we canot hear the requests or responses made . The trucks ( Rescue6 ) were cleared to stop 90m from runway axis , by some cones. That is in fact the only part which is clear. .

[A320 Glider]

Originally Posted by Pilot DAR

The emergency return would have been to earth, through and beyond the overrun, not a circuit. That airplane was no longer capable of controlled flight.

My point exactly. If the pilots had decided to continue, the outcome would have been completely different. The flight crew, along with the cabin crew, deserve absolute recognition here. This could be the South American Sully moment for this crew!

[tubby linton]

Have any photos appeared of the missing gear leg and the engine? The engine and pylon are obviously missing and I am sure that Airbus will be very interested to see the damage to the wing structure . Did the gear leg separate from the structure or did the leg break on impact with the fire truck?