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One of Russia's richest women killedin private aircraft in Germany

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One of Russia's richest women killedin private aircraft in Germany

Old 1st Apr 2019, 10:43
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by PerPurumTonantes View Post
Or a footballer and very rich but killed in a single prop piloted by a plumber... Or a rally driver and very rich but killed in a helicopter... Or a football club owner in Leicester... Or a racing driver and his team at Elstree...

Does seem a bit odd that it keeps happening. You would think that privileged people would be more educated as to risk. But clearly not.
You put the Leicester helicopter in with that group? I beg to differ.
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Old 1st Apr 2019, 11:03
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by atakacs View Post
I am not saying it is necessarily of relevance here but what is the upshot of flying such an aircraft vs, say, a PC12.
Clearly she could afford it...
The answer is quite simple: speed.

The Epic has basically the same engine as the PC12, but is more than a tonne lighter, and it goes some 50 knots or so faster. It is possibly the fastest single-engine turboprop around, faster even than a TBM.

Since it is an experimental, costs are probably also a lot lower; just because you are rich doesn't meant you are not trying to save money.

FYI, Egelsbach is the untowered exectuve airfield close to Frankfurt. It's where you go if you are not an airliner or a larger business jet, and want to go to Frankfurt. Jets up to 20 t are permitted with prior permission.

There are special procedures for turboprops and jets, and since the Frankfurt Class C (the most restrictive airspace in Germany, comparable to Class B in the US) is only 1100 ft AGL, and the Class D (CTR) is quite close, it is "easy" to infringe if you are going fast. Possibly a factor if the stories about avoiding a missed approach and circling instead turn out to be true.

The airport website has copies of the VFR charts.


Bernd

Last edited by bsieker; 1st Apr 2019 at 12:35.
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Old 1st Apr 2019, 11:39
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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Buddy Holly,Ritchie Valens and JP Richardson, Patsy Cline, Aaliyah, Reba Mc Intyre's entire band, Jim Croce, countless celebrities/well to do killed by "semi-professional" operators over decades...indeed many are let down by their agents and have paid with their lives
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Old 1st Apr 2019, 11:46
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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It amazes me that someone so wealthy would buy a cheap kitplane rather than something like a PC12.
Or is this another cases of using a cheap grey charter ?.
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Old 1st Apr 2019, 11:51
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Photos from 2018 show this airframe with 'Epicaircraft.com' titles across the fuselage. Could the owner have been involved with the company developing this type?

https://www.google.com/search?q=RA-2151G+epic+LT
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Old 1st Apr 2019, 11:56
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Jhieminga View Post
Photos from 2018 show this airframe with 'Epicaircraft.com' titles across the fuselage. Could the owner have been involved with the company developing this type?

https://www.google.com/search?q=RA-2151G+epic+LT
The aircraft appears to be one of the two prototypes for getting the test flights for certification of the former kitplane. And No, it ain‘t ‚cheap‘ - the kitplane was on top of 3m already.
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Old 1st Apr 2019, 12:06
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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they have been trying to get that to market for some time,, I think the Chinese have pumped in some money, and its now very nearly certified...have a glance at epicaircraft.com....hardly a "kitplane"
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Old 1st Apr 2019, 12:07
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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I have read elsewhere on the web that Natalia Fileva's husband Vladislav Filev is involved with the aircraft manufacturer as the main investor.
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Old 1st Apr 2019, 12:10
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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Indeed it was reported their family took over majority/all of Epic. This particular aircraft is owned by them for quite some time and been featured in gear up landing in Moscow a few years ago. Family also owns a G550.
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Old 1st Apr 2019, 13:12
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/8935440
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Old 1st Apr 2019, 14:37
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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There is an eyewitness account in some german forum by some model airplane pilot who watched things happening from his garden. He claimed they maneuvred low and slow right next to the field and runway with high bank angles and finally dropped their left wing before impact. They stalled it he believes. No smoke, no flames inflight, gear was up he said. His statement was filed officially with the police.
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Old 1st Apr 2019, 14:42
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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German eyewitness:

Right Base on the side of the higway for HPA aproach over the outskirts of Erzhausen.
Tight turn into ultrashort final with stall in the turn.

German flugzeugforum:
​"Ich war heute bei der Kripo Darmstadt und habe meinen Augezeugenbericht zu Protokoll gegeben. Nur um einige Mutmaßungen hier zu zerstreuen: Ich wohne 600 meter südlch versetzt zum westlichen Landebahnende von EDFE. Ich war zufällig mit Sicht in Richtung Norden im Garten, als die Epic in maximal 100m Höhe mein Haus überflogen hat. Die Maschine hat den Ort überflogen, was sonst nur der Polizeihubschrauber darf, hab nur gerufen "Notlandung". Die Turbine lief, aber entweder unruhig oder es wurde gerade Gas herausgenommen, kein Rauch oder Flammen beobachtet. Die Maschine flog mit eingezogenem Fahrwerk ca 600 meter weiter und ist dann gefühlte 50 Meter hoch eng nach Westen eingekurvt ... ich dachte 1. das kann nicht sein und 2. gleich gibts nen Stall. Das passierte auch umgehend, die Epic ist über die linke Fläche abgeschmiert, hat noch eine halbe Rolle abwärts gemacht (so das ich die komplette Unterseite des Flugzeuges gesehen habe) und ist dann senkrecht mit sofortigem Aufschlagbrand eingeschlagen. "

Last edited by krohmie; 1st Apr 2019 at 15:21.
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Old 1st Apr 2019, 14:54
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Less Hair View Post
There is an eyewitness account in some german forum by some model airplane pilot who watched things happening from his garden. He claimed they maneuvred low and slow right next to the field and runway with high bank angles and finally dropped their left wing before impact. They stalled it he believes. No smoke, no flames inflight, gear was up he said. His statement was filed officially with the police.
There have been many witnesses at the airfield, so no shortage of information.
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Old 1st Apr 2019, 15:18
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by krohmie View Post
German eyewitness:

Right Base on the wrong side of the higway for HPA aproach over the outskirts of Erzhausen.
Tight turn into ultrashort final with stall in the turn.

German flugzeugforum:
​"Ich war heute bei der Kripo Darmstadt und habe meinen Augezeugenbericht zu Protokoll gegeben. Nur um einige Mutmaßungen hier zu zerstreuen: Ich wohne 600 meter südlch versetzt zum westlichen Landebahnende von EDFE. Ich war zufällig mit Sicht in Richtung Norden im Garten, als die Epic in maximal 100m Höhe mein Haus überflogen hat. Die Maschine hat den Ort überflogen, was sonst nur der Polizeihubschrauber darf, hab nur gerufen "Notlandung". Die Turbine lief, aber entweder unruhig oder es wurde gerade Gas herausgenommen, kein Rauch oder Flammen beobachtet. Die Maschine flog mit eingezogenem Fahrwerk ca 600 meter weiter und ist dann gefühlte 50 Meter hoch eng nach Westen eingekurvt ... ich dachte 1. das kann nicht sein und 2. gleich gibts nen Stall. Das passierte auch umgehend, die Epic ist über die linke Fläche abgeschmiert, hat noch eine halbe Rolle abwärts gemacht (so das ich die komplette Unterseite des Flugzeuges gesehen habe) und ist dann senkrecht mit sofortigem Aufschlagbrand eingeschlagen. "
My translation:

"I was at the police station Darmstadt today to give my eye-witness report. Just to dispel some speculation here: I live 600 metres south abeam of the westerly threshold of the runway at EDFE. I happened to be in my garden, looking north, as the Epic flew over my house, not more than 100 m high. The machine flew over the village, which normally only the police helicopter is permitted to do, I just called out "emergency landing". The turbine was running, but either it was running rough or had just been throttled back, I could see no smoke or flames. The machine flew with retracted landing gear maybe 600 more metres and turned tightly to the west in what felt like a height of 50 metres. ... I thought (1) this cannot happen and (2) soon there will be a stall. Which happened immediately, the Epic dipped over the left wing, made half a roll downwards (so that I could see the entire bottom of the aircraft) and impacted vertically, immediately followed by an impact fire."
So if the witness is not mistaken, it did not turn into final, which would have been to the east, but turned west, in the wrong direction, possibly because it was already over the runway and maybe intended to turn away and try again.

Here's the approach chart with the only permitted approach path to 08 for turbine-powered aircraft dotted in red:


Since the runway is 1400 m long (just under a mile) you can see that it is a very short final approach. I have only ever flown to EDFE in a very slow single-piston aircraft, and mostly to 26, so I imagine it is quite challenging to 08 in a fast turboprop.

The blue dashed line west of the Autobahn marks the border of the CTR of Frankfurt/Main EDDF. Being a very high-traffic airport, they don't like infringements at all.

So if it was flying over Erzhausen, it was on the correct side of the Autobahn, but still much too far to the east. Many VFR approach and departure routes in Germany follow motorways, because they are very easy to identify, and most of the time the routes are on the right side of the motorway, as is the case here. Approach to 08 is on the eastern side, and departure from 26 is on the western side.


Bernd

Last edited by bsieker; 1st Apr 2019 at 15:29.
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Old 1st Apr 2019, 15:32
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ChickenHouse View Post

There have been many witnesses at the airfield, so no shortage of information.
I translated the witness report in the other thread and also posted the approach chart with the only permitted approach to 08 for turbine-powered aircraft. It is a very short final.

Bernd
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Old 1st Apr 2019, 15:42
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by bsieker View Post
I translated the witness report in the other thread and also posted the approach chart with the only permitted approach to 08 for turbine-powered aircraft. It is a very short final.

Bernd
If you measure it you will find it is the standard 0.8 nm ICAO standard. And no, the red dotted flight path drawn is wrong, not the path the Epic flew.
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Old 1st Apr 2019, 16:55
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ChickenHouse View Post

If you measure it you will find it is the standard 0.8 nm ICAO standard.
The whole runway is just 0.76 NM, and there is no displaced threshold for landing 08, so the whole runway is available. And if you extend the runway to the left by the same amount again (yellow bar, still less than 0.8 NM), you end up at the turn to crosswind for departing aircraft, the dashed line with the arrowhead at the bottom, which goes in southerly direction on the western side of the motorway.

If you mark the final (orange bar) for the arriving traffic, going on the eastern side of the motorway, and copy that mark to the scale at the bottom of the chart, you see that it is only 0.4 NM.



And no, the red dotted flight path drawn is wrong, not the path the Epic flew.
Yes, I know that the Epic didn't fly the red dotted path, and I didn't write that it had. How would I plot a path that nobody knows? I clearly wrote that the red dotted path is the only permitted approach to 08 for turbine aircraft. It is the path it should have flown:

3. Approaches in the traffic circuits and departures from the traffic circuits in conjunction with the provisions of the ATZ
3.1 Approaches with jet aircraft and turboprops

Approaches with jet aircraft and turboprops are only permitted subject to the following provisions:
a) For runway 08:
Entry via DELTA along the A5 motorway onto right base of runway 08.
b) For runway 26:
Entry via YANKEE directly onto final approach.
Bernd
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Old 1st Apr 2019, 17:23
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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At 300 feet per mile profile that is a very tricky approach to fly. You'd need to be based there and do it every day to be proficient.

Noise abatement profiles have a lot to answer for in aircraft accidents.
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Old 1st Apr 2019, 17:40
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by bsieker View Post
only permitted approach to 08 for turbine aircraft.
Do you really believe in any permissions needed or applicable?
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Old 1st Apr 2019, 17:53
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ChickenHouse View Post

Do you really believe in any permissions needed or applicable?
It doesn't say (nor did I) that any permissions are needed. But being busy and so close to Germany's largest international airport, Egelsbach has one of the longest sections in the German AIP VFR (longer than most towered airports), which includes precise procedures as to how and where approaches and departures must be flown. It has nothing to do with beliefs.

If you have read the other thread then you will have seen that I have linked to the Charts, which also include all textual descriptions for the procedures for approaches and departures to and from Egelsbach. Just take a look. I've flown there, I know how it works. In recent years the procedures have been somewhat relaxed, there are now no longer mandatory reporting points (as far as I know, EDFE was the only untowered airfield in Germany to have those), and it was technically inside Frankfurt CTR during the day. That is no longer the case, instead it is now an ATZ/RMZ/TMZ (aerodrome traffic zone, radio mandatory zone, transponder mandataory zone), but the approach and departure routes still apply and must be followed, unless an exception has been granted by Egelsbach INFO explicitly.

Bernd
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