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Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

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Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

Old 2nd Mar 2019, 20:49
  #1621 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by oggers View Post
I see what you are saying but I think the outrage is fuelled more by the clear culture of non-compliance around this operation than any yet to be established pilot error.
Indeed.
If that flight had been flown by a commercial pilot, planning and making the flight professionally but making a stupid mistake during the approach and crashing the aircraft,
this whole discussion would have been reduced to: "very sad, but it can happen to everyone to make deadly mistakes".
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Old 2nd Mar 2019, 20:56
  #1622 (permalink)  
 
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No pilot is immune from making an in-flight error. The difference with this Sala accident is that critical errors were made on the ground, even before the engine was started.
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Old 2nd Mar 2019, 23:44
  #1623 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Pittsextra View Post
How many accidents can you recall that would satisfy the terms of illegal "grey flying" which let me push you to suggest that were such flying to be illegal then given the duty of the CAA there would surely follow a prosecution. I can think of just 1, the recently prosecuted PA28 / Manchester pilot.

Unless I am oblivious to a heap more then either one must conclude it either doesn't happen or the CAA turn a blind eye?
A good number of years ago when you were still able to fly fixed wing into Silverstone, I flew a party there in a Twin Otter. The flight was under an AOC and was fully legal, but expecting a ramp check I got the books out the night before and checked the performance (which was, of course, fine). I typed the calculations all out ready for the Flight Ops Inspector.

On arrival there were the two men in blazers, stripey ties and clipboards who checked the docs and, at my insistence, looked at the performance figures. I then pointed to the Bandierante parked next to the Otter (and which had no chance of operating legally from the short grass strip) and asked if they were going to check his performance figures. They pointed to the Irish registration and said they had no authority to inspect foreign registered aircraft, so no. I guess that would still apply to N reg a/c.
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Old 3rd Mar 2019, 08:18
  #1624 (permalink)  
 
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Regarding the observation that at one stage CAA Flight Operations and Air Taxi Operations Inspectors did not have authority to board and inspect foreign registered aircraft, this is quite correct. When I was granted a CAA Flight Operations Inspector's Authority and Certificate of Appointment in February 1986 the relevant text began:
"TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN The Civil Aviation Authority of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland certifies that the holder of this certificate is a Flight Operations Inspector appointed to inspect in the interests of aviation safety the operation of aircraft registered in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern ireland, wherever they may be." Then in December 1994 an additional sentence was inserted so as to continue the previous text thus, " and the operation of aircraft not so registered whilst they are within the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland."
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Old 3rd Mar 2019, 12:33
  #1625 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by VerdunLuck View Post
They pointed to the Irish registration and said they had no authority to inspect foreign registered aircraft, so no. I guess that would still apply to N reg a/c.
Now it would. The usual ramp inspection in Europe is called SAFA for: Safety Assessment of Foreign Aircaft. (https://www.easa.europa.eu/easa-and-...mmes-safa-saca)
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Old 3rd Mar 2019, 12:58
  #1626 (permalink)  
 
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Although I retired as a Flight Operations Inspector in 2001, I doubt that I could really be considered qualified today to comment on the current activities undertaken by the UK CAA with regard to managing safety oversight, for much has changed in the interim. However, we should bear in mind that a presumption exists, and is reflected in national legislation relating to aviation, that all who may be involved in this activity, in whatever capacity, amateur or professional, will wish to perform their duties or activities such that aircraft will fly safely.

Hence, legislation pertaining to non-commercial air transport activities is relatively light on limitations whereas those relating to commercial air transport include additional requirements designed to reduce hazards and mitigate risk when the public hire or offer/provide 'reward' (ie pay for) services on offer. Therefore, it is the responsibility of individuals as well as service providers to ensure that they understand whatever requirements apply to their activities and adhere to them.

It may be worth remembering that laws in the UK are made by parliament whilst the CAA helps to frame such laws as may need updating or introducing acting as advisers to the government. Based upon experience, some laws prescribe requirements that will enhance safety margins whilst others proscribe actions such as are considered likely to increase risk. Although the Authority will investigate where it becomes aware that laws would appear to have been broken, this is by no means its main activity. Rather, this is to advise and assist those who seek to fly themselves as well as those who provide services to the public so as to ensure that, in the case of the latter, through audits and inspections the relevant standards are being upheld to the extent that licences, approvals, certificates, etc may be granted/issued and renewed. Where regulations are found to have been transgressed, the Authority is more likely to take administrative action (eg licence suspension) rather than seek the applications of sanctions through the courts.

Although the methods applied today by those who are employed by the UK CAA may differ in format from those that were applied during the 20 years I spent in the Flight Operations Department, I doubt that the overall purpose has changed very much. It still behoves everyone involved in aviation to know what the requirements affecting their part of the operation are and to do their best to ensure that safety remains their top priority - and this applies across the board to baggage handlers, air traffic control staff, simulator instructors, aircraft design and maintenance engineers, managers, medical examiners, cabin crew, flight crew, surveyors, etc etc. As a former flight safety bulletin some 50 years ago published by Wg Cdr Spry in "Air Clues" had it, "Flight safety is your business" - with the emphasis on 'your'!
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Old 3rd Mar 2019, 14:36
  #1627 (permalink)  
 
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For completeness, this exchange said to be between Callum Davies - Player Liaison Officer of Cardiff City Football Club - and Emiliano Sala may be worth putting on record. It has been published by the French media outlet Ouest-France and shows Cardiff City offering Emiliano Sala a scheduled round trip from Cardiff to Paris . There is a translation at the end of the transcript.




Player Liaison Officer: [thumbs up emoji]

Emiliano Sala: Thank you very much

PLO: It's nothing friend

I write Spanish better than I speak it

ES: Ha ha very good

PLO: My girlfriend speaks Spanish. She is a teacher

[shares commercial flight details]

PLO: It is an option perhaps. Cardiff-Paris.

But it's early.

ES: Friend.

It's good.

I have a flight going tomorrow to Nantes and return Monday night to Cardiff.

Willie McKay called me.

PLO: Ok mate. Have you agreed a price with him?

ES: Yes it's good. We will speak tomorrow before leaving for Nantes.

PLO: Ok that works.

What time do you fly?
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Old 3rd Mar 2019, 22:48
  #1628 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by korrol View Post
For completeness, this exchange said to be between Callum Davies - Player Liaison Officer of Cardiff City Football Club - and Emiliano Sala may be worth putting on record. It has been published by the French media outlet Ouest-France and shows Cardiff City offering Emiliano Sala a scheduled round trip from Cardiff to Paris .
"Offering" is not exactly the best word. He did not offer to pay the flight, although I guess the schedule was more a problem for Sala than the price to pay...
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Old 4th Mar 2019, 07:38
  #1629 (permalink)  
 
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I wouldn't quibble with the point you make deltafox44.

I think it's interesting that the flight from Nantes to Cardiff was being envisaged - by Sala - from the outset as a night flight . He says "I have a flight going tomorrow to Nantes and return Monday night to Cardiff. Willie McKay called me".

This wasn't a case of Sala showing up late for take off on the Monday . Even the previous day it had been planned to be a night flight.
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Old 4th Mar 2019, 11:21
  #1630 (permalink)  
 
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....responsibility for this accident lays fully with the pilot in command...
Within the current legislation and as it is laid down, I concur. And that will be a very inconvenient truth for a great many involved parties, so don't expect them to necessarily take this line (hence various interested parties effecting outrage over the criticism of the pilot, by the aviation community.)

All that said, we all know where the blame for the current opaque legislation and grossly ineffectual enforcement lies. And because of that the pilot was, IMO, both responsible and a victim at the same time.
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Old 4th Mar 2019, 11:25
  #1631 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Mike Flynn View Post


US piggyback licences are issued on the back of UK licences and their restrictions.

In the case of this pilot his eyesight prevented him obtaining a UK night rating because he was colour blind.

So he could not fly at night end of story.


Don't be so sure. He had an FAA Second Class medical without a night flying restriction. To fly an N reg at night, he would only have needed three hours night training with a FAA instructor in his logbook. This would not show up on the 61.75 certificate, because FAA certificates are deemed to include night flying privileges, unless annoted to the contrary.

The difference between CAA and FAA colour vision standards are easy to find online.
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Old 4th Mar 2019, 12:11
  #1632 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ATC Watcher View Post
.
To be the devil's advocate , this is not what the Sala SMS says , it says to come back in Cardiff Monday EVENING. not night.
Anyway, the sunset was at 16:50 (UTC) and night at 17:20 in the afternoon

Last edited by deltafox44; 4th Mar 2019 at 12:12. Reason: wiggy was quicker
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Old 4th Mar 2019, 12:19
  #1633 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by patowalker View Post
Don't be so sure. He had an FAA Second Class medical without a night flying restriction. To fly an N reg at night, he would only have needed three hours night training with a FAA instructor in his logbook. This would not show up on the 61.75 certificate, because FAA certificates are deemed to include night flying privileges, unless annoted to the contrary.

The difference between CAA and FAA colour vision standards are easy to find online.
Thats not my understanding. According to the NY FSDO only ratings added by a check ride with an FAA DPE can be added to a 61.75 certificate following TSA approval. You can't override limitations on an underlying licence by carrying out training with an FAA Instructor. Whilst the FAA may have different vision standards these would only have applied if he did a full FAA PPL including a check ride.
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Old 4th Mar 2019, 12:19
  #1634 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by patowalker View Post
Don't be so sure. He had an FAA Second Class medical without a night flying restriction. To fly an N reg at night, he would only have needed three hours night training with a FAA instructor in his logbook. This would not show up on the 61.75 certificate, because FAA certificates are deemed to include night flying privileges, unless annoted to the contrary.

The difference between CAA and FAA colour vision standards are easy to find online.
My understanding is that the US medical relates to his US licence and the EASA medical to his EASA licence.
He could not operate the aircraft between EASA states on his US licence. Only by using the privileges of his EASA licence and medical could he operate an N registered aircraft between UK and France and the return.
Therefore in this instance his US licence and medical are irrelevant.
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Old 4th Mar 2019, 13:37
  #1635 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by PT6Driver View Post


My understanding is that the US medical relates to his US licence and the EASA medical to his EASA licence.
He could not operate the aircraft between EASA states on his US licence. Only by using the privileges of his EASA licence and medical could he operate an N registered aircraft between UK and France and the return.
Therefore in this instance his US licence and medical are irrelevant.
Surely isnít it the other way around? To operate an N ref aircraft between the UK and France he would have to fly it on the privileges of his FAA licence. A UK issued EASA licence would only allow him to fly an N reg aircraft within the UK, not across any international boundaries...

The sad thing for Mr Ibbotson would seem to be that for all of his 3700 hours he didnít have the experience to realise how difficult, or even impossible, it is to fly visually over water on a dark night under a cloud layer. There is almost no visual reference, and sadly from the report of the last few moments of the flight this crash almost certainly resulted from disorientation, the idea that anyone who was in control of the situation would be descending deliberately at 7000 feet per minute in that aircraft at that level is totally unbelievable. And the sad thing for those who want to believe that an experienced PPL holder with 3700 hours would be better than a newly qualified CPL / IR holder is that this proves quite clearly that itís not the case. Your 250 hr CPL/IR holder could have got in a Malibu or an Arrow or a Seneca and operated that flight perfectly safely on an IFR flight plan, just the way they flew their IR flight test a few days or weeks before.
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Old 4th Mar 2019, 15:34
  #1636 (permalink)  
 
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There is no doubt about the time the flight was to take off.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/47013474

These messages between Jack McKay and Sala were translated from French.

Friday, 18 January
8:01pm - Sala: "I want to leave tomorrow for Nantes at around 11am and come back on Monday night around 9pm to Cardiff if that is possible."
8:05pm -McKay:"Good. I'll send a message when that's sorted."

Sunday, 20 January
5:00pm - McKay: "Hi there is it possible you could come back at seven in the evening on Monday night? Just because the pilot has to get home in the north after he gets to Cardiff."
5:01pm - Sala:"Hi, Half past seven would be possible."
5:03pm - McKay:"Yes that's good."

Last edited by patowalker; 4th Mar 2019 at 17:26.
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Old 4th Mar 2019, 15:45
  #1637 (permalink)  
 
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Thought MCKay didn`t know who was the pilot....?
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Old 4th Mar 2019, 17:04
  #1638 (permalink)  
 
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The bottom line is this - the aircraft had, I assume, an autopilot. If that's the case this flight could have been handled safely by almost anyone who could operate the AP. Regardless of legalities, or of his qualifications which seem to be the subject of much conjecture. Many people seem to know someone who knew him (I do too) and who rated his skills. But he made TERRIBLE DECISIONS at many stages of the flight, and that can happen to any human being CPL/IR or not (albeit less likely I suppose). Terrible decisions in aviation cost lives. We've seen it before and we'll see it again.
The chap flying the display at Shoreham was a CPL/IR as far I am aware and a crash happened. So CPL is not necessarily the panacea some posters on here seem to think.
My own conclusion is that the aircraft should have been operating under an AOC and I reckon the authorities need to examine why it is so expensive to get one because the processes entailed in operating under an AOC do improve safety. Safety should be priced such that more people can access it!?
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Old 4th Mar 2019, 17:29
  #1639 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ShropshirePilot View Post
The bottom line is this - the aircraft had, I assume, an autopilot. If that's the case this flight could have been handled safely by almost anyone who could operate the AP. Regardless of legalities, or of his qualifications which seem to be the subject of much conjecture. Many people seem to know someone who knew him (I do too) and who rated his skills. But he made TERRIBLE DECISIONS at many stages of the flight, and that can happen to any human being CPL/IR or not (albeit less likely I suppose). Terrible decisions in aviation cost lives. We've seen it before and we'll see it again.
The chap flying the display at Shoreham was a CPL/IR as far I am aware and a crash happened. So CPL is not necessarily the panacea some posters on here seem to think.
My own conclusion is that the aircraft should have been operating under an AOC and I reckon the authorities need to examine why it is so expensive to get one because the processes entailed in operating under an AOC do improve safety. Safety should be priced such that more people can access it!?
What he said
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Old 4th Mar 2019, 19:37
  #1640 (permalink)  
 
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Having an autopilot fitted is not necessarily safe. I used to fly a large British turboprop and the airline owner would never pay to have them made servicable, as co-pilots were paid to fly the aircraft.
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