Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Hotel Sheets, Downtown Plunketville
Age: 71
Posts: 608
Originally Posted by ATC Watcher
Guys, a Malibu is not a "complex aircraft " in the EASA or FAA terminology meant here . Check the definition on google if you do not believe me.
And why focusing on cost sharing ?We have no proof that this was the case here, it could be just transporting someone for free. Period. This is allowed on an N registered aircraft, "family and friends" is the correct US phraseology I believe.
And why focusing on cost sharing ?We have no proof that this was the case here, it could be just transporting someone for free. Period. This is allowed on an N registered aircraft, "family and friends" is the correct US phraseology I believe.
https://www.iaopa.eu/mediaServlet/st...PA_revised.pdf
If this remained a current requirement had DI undergone such training.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Toronto
Posts: 111
Originally Posted by ATC Watcher
Ok , let me try this story . I have to say that I am not a lawyer nor an expert in UK rules, but I guess this story is universal .If not then I'll be happy to be corrected.
You own a car , I am a good friend of yours and ask you if I can borrow your car for the week end as mine is U/S, and later tell you my son will drive it up and sown to France to pick up someone . You say yes and give me the cars papers and the keys.
My son comes to me later and says, I cannot do the trip buy my friend John that you know very well, will do it ; you say Ok , not ideal, but OK...
X gets an accident because he drove well above the speed limit and kills someone.
If no money changed hands, it is only the driver who is responsible., not the owner of the car, me who arranged the trip, or,my son who was supposed to drive.
You own a car , I am a good friend of yours and ask you if I can borrow your car for the week end as mine is U/S, and later tell you my son will drive it up and sown to France to pick up someone . You say yes and give me the cars papers and the keys.
My son comes to me later and says, I cannot do the trip buy my friend John that you know very well, will do it ; you say Ok , not ideal, but OK...
X gets an accident because he drove well above the speed limit and kills someone.
If no money changed hands, it is only the driver who is responsible., not the owner of the car, me who arranged the trip, or,my son who was supposed to drive.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Dunstable, Beds UK
Posts: 530
I have not seen the reason for the delay to the original 0900 flight plan.
A morning departure, I would have thought, would obviously be what Mr Ibbotson would have preferred, so the delay, I would not think, had been his decision
A morning departure, I would have thought, would obviously be what Mr Ibbotson would have preferred, so the delay, I would not think, had been his decision
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Belgium
Age: 59
Posts: 81
Backtrack :
For a Flight from Nantes to Cardiff……… What is he doing at 5.000 ft in a plane that can go in the higher Flight levels avoiding any bad weather and ice in the first place?????
Being at 5.000, and being in ice, got him to request the lower altitude of 2.500. What happened afterwards is pure speculation.
But for a flight from Nantes to Cardiff? ? ? Why on planet Earth choose a low cruising altitude and ending up at 5.000 ft over the Channel????
Me in my Jodel 120 at 5.000 ft, that's an understandable cruise. But in that airframe? ? ? ? For that distance? ? ? In that weather? ? ?
Sorry, don't get it.
For a Flight from Nantes to Cardiff……… What is he doing at 5.000 ft in a plane that can go in the higher Flight levels avoiding any bad weather and ice in the first place?????
Being at 5.000, and being in ice, got him to request the lower altitude of 2.500. What happened afterwards is pure speculation.
But for a flight from Nantes to Cardiff? ? ? Why on planet Earth choose a low cruising altitude and ending up at 5.000 ft over the Channel????
Me in my Jodel 120 at 5.000 ft, that's an understandable cruise. But in that airframe? ? ? ? For that distance? ? ? In that weather? ? ?
Sorry, don't get it.
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Falkland Islands
Posts: 97
Guys, a Malibu is not a "complex aircraft " in the EASA or FAA terminology meant here .
Edit - to add, I took the above definition from Wikipedia, but have just taken the time to look up the current definition on the FAA website, FAR 61.1
"Complex airplane means an airplane that has a retractable landing gear, flaps, and a controllable pitch propeller, including airplanes equipped with an engine control system consisting of a digital computer and associated accessories for controlling the engine and propeller, such as a full authority digital engine control; or, in the case of a seaplane, flaps and a controllable pitch propeller, including seaplanes equipped with an engine control system consisting of a digital computer and associated accessories for controlling the engine and propeller, such as a full authority digital engine control."
And why focusing on cost sharing ?We have no proof that this was the case here, it could be just transporting someone for free. Period. This is allowed on an N registered aircraft, "family and friends" is the correct US phraseology I believe.
Last edited by Ant T; 10th Feb 2019 at 23:17.
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: uk
Posts: 1,583
Originally Posted by Silver_Light
What is the general theory here as to where David Ibbotson's body is, as I believe there is a crowdfunding page set up to raise enough money to try and find him?
On other forums the fact that the AAIB have called off the search and trying to raise the wreck has caused an outcry on the grounds of inequality and that if it hadn't been Sala that they found, it would be ongoing.
His family don't want to give up but do they honestly think they will find him after all this time?
And one last final question- it's a difficult one I know... who is really responsible for this tragedy? Should someone be held to account?
On other forums the fact that the AAIB have called off the search and trying to raise the wreck has caused an outcry on the grounds of inequality and that if it hadn't been Sala that they found, it would be ongoing.
His family don't want to give up but do they honestly think they will find him after all this time?
And one last final question- it's a difficult one I know... who is really responsible for this tragedy? Should someone be held to account?
With the prevailing wind and currents around that date, I would be searching the coastlines around Sark, North East Guernsey, Herm, Possibly Jethou and then the French coast Le Manche area from approximately Le Brisay area up to Clairfontaine. Unfortunately searching in the vicinity of the Nuclear Plant at Flamanville may prove problematic. Use a helicopter. Go slow and low and have maybe two spotters looking out as well as the pilots. Many of the Channel island coves and rocks around say Sark etc, are very difficult to see from the water or the land/cliffs. Only a slow methodical search by helicopter or drone would be suitable in my opinion. I know of one instance where a car going over the cliff in Guernsey could not be seen by land or sea, but a helicopter spotted it straight away.
Apart from doing that, you'd only be extending the search for the 'needle in the haystack'
Last edited by helimutt; 10th Feb 2019 at 23:32.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Cardiff
Posts: 474
Very interesting article about David Mearns and the search for the aircraft.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/d...4e160437e71292
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/d...4e160437e71292
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Toronto
Posts: 2,150
Water temperature is the main factor in whether a body will come to the surface.
Six boys in 1995 stole a couple boats for a joyride in Lake Ontario and have never been found.
https://www.thespec.com/news-story/5...-in-pickering/
Six boys in 1995 stole a couple boats for a joyride in Lake Ontario and have never been found.
https://www.thespec.com/news-story/5...-in-pickering/
Pegase Driver
Join Date: May 1997
Location: Europe
Age: 68
Posts: 2,473
Ant T :
Ok my bad regarding FAA, obviously 2 different sets of definitions , did not know . I will correct my earlier post . But the quote that started this discussion was taken from EASA regulations on sharing .
The EASA definition of "Complex aircraft" in their regulations is the following :
ATCwatcher - A Malibu certainly is a complex aircraft under the FAA definition - "A complex airplane is defined by the United States Federal Aviation Administration as an aircraft that has all of the following: A retractable landing gear, a controllable-pitch propeller, and movable or adjustable flaps."
The EASA definition of "Complex aircraft" in their regulations is the following :
The term non-complex aircraft refers to aircraft that do not meet any of the criteria for classification as «complex aircraft», which means:
- they have a certified maximum take-off weight below 5,700 kg and
- they have a maximum approved passenger seating configuration of 19 and
- they are certified for operation by only 1 pilot and
- they are not equipped with jet engines.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Reading, UK
Posts: 9,356
As ever with PPRuNe, there is a previous thread on the subject, in this case debating the (various) meanings of "complex single", both in the previous generally-accepted sense of "variable-pitch prop, retractable gear, etc" (still a valid distinction in the CPL training/testing world) and with reference to EASA's somewhat unhelpful hijacking of the term to mean something completely different 
:
Complex Non-High Performance
From that thread:
:Complex Non-High Performance
From that thread:
Cobalt is not making it up. This is the meaning of "complex motor-powered aircraft" as defined by EASA in Basic Regulation 3(j).
It is unfortunate that they chose the word complex as it creates confusion with the common understanding of VP+RG+flaps. However it is important to understand the new definition as it has implications on Ptf, maintenance requirements, etc.
It is unfortunate that they chose the word complex as it creates confusion with the common understanding of VP+RG+flaps. However it is important to understand the new definition as it has implications on Ptf, maintenance requirements, etc.
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 58
Originally Posted by EXDAC
Is there any reason to assume that the accident pilot did not have a complex endorsement in his log book? I doubt someone just gave him the keys of the Malibu if he had never flown a complex aircraft before.
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: europe
Posts: 6
Originally Posted by lilflyboy262...2
If you are doctoring your logbook, then you are committing fraud. When you sign the little bit in the corner saying "true and correct."
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West London
Posts: 940
Originally Posted by GotTheTshirt
I have not seen the reason for the delay to the original 0900 flight plan.
A morning departure, I would have thought, would obviously be what Mr Ibbotson would have preferred, so the delay, I would not think, had been his decision
A morning departure, I would have thought, would obviously be what Mr Ibbotson would have preferred, so the delay, I would not think, had been his decision
*IF* the previous text messages between McKay and Sala prior to the outbound flight from Cardiff are indeed true, then Sala was expecting to return in the evening, not in the morning, so why did Ibbotson file the flight plan for the morning.....? Possibly deliberately misled over the arrangements, given the way this thing seems to have been arranged, but then again, we'll probably never know for sure.
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Monte Carlo
Posts: 530
I can't help but feel sorry for Mr. Ibbotson, whilst I don't in any way condone his actions of deciding to fly that evening I can sort of understand why...
However, surely the root cause of this accident is the aviation industry...Now, I don't know if Mr. Ibbotson was happy tootling around the skies with a PPL of if he had greater ambitions. Assuming the latter, he would have (understandably) almost taken any opportunity to build up his hours.IMHO, it's the system thats to blame, as far as I'm aware you don't hear of accountants, lawyers, surgeons etc. paying for their training, work experience, place of work etc.
However, surely the root cause of this accident is the aviation industry...Now, I don't know if Mr. Ibbotson was happy tootling around the skies with a PPL of if he had greater ambitions. Assuming the latter, he would have (understandably) almost taken any opportunity to build up his hours.IMHO, it's the system thats to blame, as far as I'm aware you don't hear of accountants, lawyers, surgeons etc. paying for their training, work experience, place of work etc.
I do not agree. By definition he made this flight in contravention of the system. Most people manage to build their hours without breaking the law. There are always unprofessional types who operate in a culture of non-compliance where they think they can get away with it. We are seeing the consequences of that here.
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Cardiff
Age: 42
Posts: 82
Today's article in The Times referred to by Runway30 is very interesting . What can we make of this sentence ?
"He shows me a sonar image of a cross shape on the sea bed. “Shipwrecks don’t do that — it was the cross of the fuselage and wings.".
....Would that indicate the speed of the aircraft was fairly low when it came into contact with the water?
"He shows me a sonar image of a cross shape on the sea bed. “Shipwrecks don’t do that — it was the cross of the fuselage and wings.".
....Would that indicate the speed of the aircraft was fairly low when it came into contact with the water?
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Europe
Posts: 34
Originally Posted by oggers
I do not agree. By definition he made this flight in contravention of the system. Most people manage to build their hours without breaking the law. There are always unprofessional types who operate in a culture of non-compliance where they think they can get away with it. We are seeing the consequences of that here.
However I was unaware of his age, it's certainly a bit late in life to pursue a CPL/ATPL which begs the question what was he doing there if it was not for some sort of reward, financial or otherwise ?
Everything in this industry is black and white, either you fly or you don't, it's clearly written in the regulations, MEL, SRM etc.
But as you say, there are always some who will bend/break the rules and think they will get away with it, unfortunately this just leads to more legislation that we who abide by the system have to follow.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Cardiff
Posts: 474
From the Guardian
‘The footballer Emiliano Sala died of head and trunk injuries when the plane he was in crashed into the English Channel, an inquest has heard.
During a five-minute hearing at Bournemouth town hall in Dorset, it emerged that Sala was formally identified by a fingerprint expert.
The court was told that his body was recovered from international waters off the island of Guernsey.
Senior acting coroner Brendan Allen said that investigations were being carried out by the police, the Air Accidents Investigation Branch (AAIB) and the Civil Aviation Authority.
Allen said the AAIB inquiry was likely to take between six and 12 months and he adjourned the inquest until 6 November.’
‘The footballer Emiliano Sala died of head and trunk injuries when the plane he was in crashed into the English Channel, an inquest has heard.
During a five-minute hearing at Bournemouth town hall in Dorset, it emerged that Sala was formally identified by a fingerprint expert.
The court was told that his body was recovered from international waters off the island of Guernsey.
Senior acting coroner Brendan Allen said that investigations were being carried out by the police, the Air Accidents Investigation Branch (AAIB) and the Civil Aviation Authority.
Allen said the AAIB inquiry was likely to take between six and 12 months and he adjourned the inquest until 6 November.’
