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Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

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Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

Old 10th Feb 2019, 21:44
  #1281 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ATC Watcher View Post
Guys, a Malibu is not a "complex aircraft " in the EASA or FAA terminology meant here . Check the definition on google if you do not believe me.
And why focusing on cost sharing ?We have no proof that this was the case here, it could be just transporting someone for free. Period. This is allowed on an N registered aircraft, "family and friends" is the correct US phraseology I believe.
I am more than happy to take your word for it, but am bit puzzled that a high performance single capable of cruise at 25000` in pressurised comfort is not listed as complex. Nevertheless I do remember the introduction of HPA for the likes of such machines. Here is an article from the archives on the subject.

https://www.iaopa.eu/mediaServlet/st...PA_revised.pdf

If this remained a current requirement had DI undergone such training.


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Old 10th Feb 2019, 22:04
  #1282 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ATC Watcher View Post
Ok , let me try this story . I have to say that I am not a lawyer nor an expert in UK rules, but I guess this story is universal .If not then I'll be happy to be corrected.

You own a car , I am a good friend of yours and ask you if I can borrow your car for the week end as mine is U/S, and later tell you my son will drive it up and sown to France to pick up someone . You say yes and give me the cars papers and the keys.
My son comes to me later and says, I cannot do the trip buy my friend John that you know very well, will do it ; you say Ok , not ideal, but OK...
X gets an accident because he drove well above the speed limit and kills someone.

If no money changed hands, it is only the driver who is responsible., not the owner of the car, me who arranged the trip, or,my son who was supposed to drive.
Not true. Any good lawyer would try to sue the owner, the garage that last fixed it, and anybody that had anything to do with it.
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Old 10th Feb 2019, 22:38
  #1283 (permalink)  
 
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I have not seen the reason for the delay to the original 0900 flight plan.
A morning departure, I would have thought, would obviously be what Mr Ibbotson would have preferred, so the delay, I would not think, had been his decision
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Old 10th Feb 2019, 22:51
  #1284 (permalink)  
 
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Backtrack :
For a Flight from Nantes to Cardiff……… What is he doing at 5.000 ft in a plane that can go in the higher Flight levels avoiding any bad weather and ice in the first place?????

Being at 5.000, and being in ice, got him to request the lower altitude of 2.500. What happened afterwards is pure speculation.

But for a flight from Nantes to Cardiff? ? ? Why on planet Earth choose a low cruising altitude and ending up at 5.000 ft over the Channel????

Me in my Jodel 120 at 5.000 ft, that's an understandable cruise. But in that airframe? ? ? ? For that distance? ? ? In that weather? ? ?
Sorry, don't get it.
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Old 10th Feb 2019, 22:53
  #1285 (permalink)  
 
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Guys, a Malibu is not a "complex aircraft " in the EASA or FAA terminology meant here .
ATCwatcher - A Malibu certainly is a complex aircraft under the FAA definition - "A complex airplane is defined by the United States Federal Aviation Administration as an aircraft that has all of the following: A retractable landing gear, a controllable-pitch propeller, and movable or adjustable flaps."

Edit - to add, I took the above definition from Wikipedia, but have just taken the time to look up the current definition on the FAA website, FAR 61.1
"Complex airplane means an airplane that has a retractable landing gear, flaps, and a controllable pitch propeller, including airplanes equipped with an engine control system consisting of a digital computer and associated accessories for controlling the engine and propeller, such as a full authority digital engine control; or, in the case of a seaplane, flaps and a controllable pitch propeller, including seaplanes equipped with an engine control system consisting of a digital computer and associated accessories for controlling the engine and propeller, such as a full authority digital engine control."

And why focusing on cost sharing ?We have no proof that this was the case here, it could be just transporting someone for free. Period. This is allowed on an N registered aircraft, "family and friends" is the correct US phraseology I believe.
Sala certainly wasn't family, and I somewhat doubt they were "friends" in any normally accepted sense.

Last edited by Ant T; 10th Feb 2019 at 23:17.
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Old 10th Feb 2019, 23:19
  #1286 (permalink)  
 
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Old 10th Feb 2019, 23:19
  #1287 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Silver_Light View Post
What is the general theory here as to where David Ibbotson's body is, as I believe there is a crowdfunding page set up to raise enough money to try and find him?

On other forums the fact that the AAIB have called off the search and trying to raise the wreck has caused an outcry on the grounds of inequality and that if it hadn't been Sala that they found, it would be ongoing.

His family don't want to give up but do they honestly think they will find him after all this time?

And one last final question- it's a difficult one I know... who is really responsible for this tragedy? Should someone be held to account?

With the prevailing wind and currents around that date, I would be searching the coastlines around Sark, North East Guernsey, Herm, Possibly Jethou and then the French coast Le Manche area from approximately Le Brisay area up to Clairfontaine. Unfortunately searching in the vicinity of the Nuclear Plant at Flamanville may prove problematic. Use a helicopter. Go slow and low and have maybe two spotters looking out as well as the pilots. Many of the Channel island coves and rocks around say Sark etc, are very difficult to see from the water or the land/cliffs. Only a slow methodical search by helicopter or drone would be suitable in my opinion. I know of one instance where a car going over the cliff in Guernsey could not be seen by land or sea, but a helicopter spotted it straight away.
Apart from doing that, you'd only be extending the search for the 'needle in the haystack'

Last edited by helimutt; 10th Feb 2019 at 23:32.
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Old 10th Feb 2019, 23:20
  #1288 (permalink)  
 
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Vilters. You might have an aircraft that can fly in upper airspace but the do you have the rating to operate there.
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Old 11th Feb 2019, 00:30
  #1289 (permalink)  
 
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Very interesting article about David Mearns and the search for the aircraft.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/d...4e160437e71292
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Old 11th Feb 2019, 02:16
  #1290 (permalink)  
 
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Water temperature is the main factor in whether a body will come to the surface.

Six boys in 1995 stole a couple boats for a joyride in Lake Ontario and have never been found.

https://www.thespec.com/news-story/5...-in-pickering/
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Old 11th Feb 2019, 03:12
  #1291 (permalink)  
 
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Surely a record of someone's bank account should show who paid what to whom, in an electronically leaky and intrusive society like ours.
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Old 11th Feb 2019, 06:55
  #1292 (permalink)  
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Ant T :
ATCwatcher - A Malibu certainly is a complex aircraft under the FAA definition - "A complex airplane is defined by the United States Federal Aviation Administration as an aircraft that has all of the following: A retractable landing gear, a controllable-pitch propeller, and movable or adjustable flaps."
Ok my bad regarding FAA, obviously 2 different sets of definitions , did not know . I will correct my earlier post . But the quote that started this discussion was taken from EASA regulations on sharing .
The EASA definition of "Complex aircraft" in their regulations is the following :
The term non-complex aircraft refers to aircraft that do not meet any of the criteria for classification as «complex aircraft», which means:
  • they have a certified maximum take-off weight below 5,700 kg and
  • they have a maximum approved passenger seating configuration of 19 and
  • they are certified for operation by only 1 pilot and
  • they are not equipped with jet engines.
Examples of non-complex aircraft include the Pilatus PC 12 and the Cessna Caravan.
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Old 11th Feb 2019, 07:47
  #1293 (permalink)  
 
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As ever with PPRuNe, there is a previous thread on the subject, in this case debating the (various) meanings of "complex single", both in the previous generally-accepted sense of "variable-pitch prop, retractable gear, etc" (still a valid distinction in the CPL training/testing world) and with reference to EASA's somewhat unhelpful hijacking of the term to mean something completely different :

Complex Non-High Performance

From that thread:

Cobalt is not making it up. This is the meaning of "complex motor-powered aircraft" as defined by EASA in Basic Regulation 3(j).

It is unfortunate that they chose the word complex as it creates confusion with the common understanding of VP+RG+flaps. However it is important to understand the new definition as it has implications on Ptf, maintenance requirements, etc.
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Old 11th Feb 2019, 08:00
  #1294 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by EXDAC View Post
Is there any reason to assume that the accident pilot did not have a complex endorsement in his log book? I doubt someone just gave him the keys of the Malibu if he had never flown a complex aircraft before.
Well he’s alleged to have undertaken a revenue flight without a commercial endorsement, a night flight without a night endorsement and an instrument flight without an instrument endorsement so is there any reason to assume he had a complex endorsement? It has also been alleged that he is a very experienced pilot so why wouldn’t someone give him the keys to the Malibu?
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Old 11th Feb 2019, 08:43
  #1295 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by lilflyboy262...2 View Post
If you are doctoring your logbook, then you are committing fraud. When you sign the little bit in the corner saying "true and correct."
Is it mandatory to write in all the hours?
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Old 11th Feb 2019, 09:16
  #1296 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by GotTheTshirt View Post
I have not seen the reason for the delay to the original 0900 flight plan.
A morning departure, I would have thought, would obviously be what Mr Ibbotson would have preferred, so the delay, I would not think, had been his decision
The speculation is the delay was pressumably that Sala hadn't arrived. The question could be how much was Ibbotson being kept in the dark over the prior arrangements?
*IF* the previous text messages between McKay and Sala prior to the outbound flight from Cardiff are indeed true, then Sala was expecting to return in the evening, not in the morning, so why did Ibbotson file the flight plan for the morning.....? Possibly deliberately misled over the arrangements, given the way this thing seems to have been arranged, but then again, we'll probably never know for sure.
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Old 11th Feb 2019, 11:13
  #1297 (permalink)  
 
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I can't help but feel sorry for Mr. Ibbotson, whilst I don't in any way condone his actions of deciding to fly that evening I can sort of understand why...
However, surely the root cause of this accident is the aviation industry...Now, I don't know if Mr. Ibbotson was happy tootling around the skies with a PPL of if he had greater ambitions. Assuming the latter, he would have (understandably) almost taken any opportunity to build up his hours.IMHO, it's the system thats to blame, as far as I'm aware you don't hear of accountants, lawyers, surgeons etc. paying for their training, work experience, place of work etc.

I do not agree. By definition he made this flight in contravention of the system. Most people manage to build their hours without breaking the law. There are always unprofessional types who operate in a culture of non-compliance where they think they can get away with it. We are seeing the consequences of that here.
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Old 11th Feb 2019, 12:00
  #1298 (permalink)  
 
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Today's article in The Times referred to by Runway30 is very interesting . What can we make of this sentence ?

"He shows me a sonar image of a cross shape on the sea bed. “Shipwrecks don’t do that — it was the cross of the fuselage and wings.".

....Would that indicate the speed of the aircraft was fairly low when it came into contact with the water?
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Old 11th Feb 2019, 13:04
  #1299 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by oggers View Post
I do not agree. By definition he made this flight in contravention of the system. Most people manage to build their hours without breaking the law. There are always unprofessional types who operate in a culture of non-compliance where they think they can get away with it. We are seeing the consequences of that here.
This is why I said "I don't in any way condone his actions of deciding to fly that evening I can sort of understand why"
However I was unaware of his age, it's certainly a bit late in life to pursue a CPL/ATPL which begs the question what was he doing there if it was not for some sort of reward, financial or otherwise ?
Everything in this industry is black and white, either you fly or you don't, it's clearly written in the regulations, MEL, SRM etc.
But as you say, there are always some who will bend/break the rules and think they will get away with it, unfortunately this just leads to more legislation that we who abide by the system have to follow.

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Old 11th Feb 2019, 14:14
  #1300 (permalink)  
 
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From the Guardian

‘The footballer Emiliano Sala died of head and trunk injuries when the plane he was in crashed into the English Channel, an inquest has heard.

During a five-minute hearing at Bournemouth town hall in Dorset, it emerged that Sala was formally identified by a fingerprint expert.

The court was told that his body was recovered from international waters off the island of Guernsey.

Senior acting coroner Brendan Allen said that investigations were being carried out by the police, the Air Accidents Investigation Branch (AAIB) and the Civil Aviation Authority.

Allen said the AAIB inquiry was likely to take between six and 12 months and he adjourned the inquest until 6 November.’
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