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Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

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Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

Old 26th Jan 2019, 21:55
  #621 (permalink)  
Just a numbered other
 
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The Telegraph 1632 26 Jan:

‘Willie McKay has said his family had been victimised after he was wrongly named as the owner of the plane. "We’ve gone through hell," he told The Telegraph. "Internet... People talking about my sons and everything.” He added: "We just tried to help the young guy. That’s all we did. Okay?"

McKay’s son, Mark, was the acting agent for Nantes in a move which made 28-year-old Sala a club-record transfer for Cardiff. Jack, signed for the club last year, exchanged a series of text messages with Sala, suggesting a private flight from Cardiff to Nantes, and then back to south Wales two days later.’

Poor Willie!

Some Favour!

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Old 26th Jan 2019, 22:04
  #622 (permalink)  
 
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I'm not a pilot but I'm a risk management enthusiast and skeptic. Thank you all for the interesting read. Truly unfortunate the scenario Sala ended up in.

I think one problem is that most people are taught to ignore aviation risk. Low probability = silly and impossible. But on the contrary you are rolling a dice every time you fly and must be prepared to face the consequences of your decisions.

Also here in the US it seems like somebody can drop out of college, go to flight school for a couple years and then fly their own foreign students on their own. Regional flights don't come too long after that.

Again truly sad that literally everything went wrong. But reading this discussion makes me impressed how many options you guys have to potentially make it out of this scenario such as higher altitude, immersion suits, and communicating with controllers to make sure search and rescue knows exactly where you go down. That makes me a bit less nervous but I still always wanna fly commercial.
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Old 26th Jan 2019, 22:14
  #623 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by vanHorck View Post
To me there are 3 questions coming out of this sad saga:
1. What happened" technically" during the flight. Why was the flight at 5,000 feet in known icing conditions. Why no attempt to immediately climb when they hit the ice, the technical state of the plane, the competence of the piloting person
I flew one for a while about 15 years ago (for an owner) when I was flying anything that paid after a period out of flying. The aircraft was cleared into known icing and had boots, heated screen etc. At least one crashed in the USA after a pilot forgot the pitot heater and flew into icing. The auto-pilot dropped out due to lack of information, the pilot was suddenly hand flying on limited panel and it was rapidly down hill from there. An airline pilot heard his calls on the radio and suggested pitot heating, which according to the POH should have been on all the time.

One thing I disliked intensely was that Piper recommended not pulling the power back to descend to save "shock cooling" Instead they recommended pitching over, leaving the power at cruise setting and coming down at high speed, using airbrakes to manage speed control. I found on the one I flew that even with airbrakes just pitching over allowed the speed to rapidly go to the top of the yellow arc. This was often at the worst time as you descended into the weather you had been above, where there would be more turbulence, and gusty conditions making a grip on the top of the yellow arc quite tenuous.

In this case the descent seems to me to be daft. If the de-icing kit all tested on the ground any halfway competent IFR pilot would have climbed. Colder air, less chance for ice to accrete and what you've already got tends to break away, less surface lumps to hit and in the PA46 no speed control worries, if he even knew what the POH said about speed control in the first place. All stuff a pro would have known, and an amateur either learns by painful experience or sponging information from the pros who still like to fly fun aeroplanes in their free time.

SND
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Old 26th Jan 2019, 22:18
  #624 (permalink)  
 
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This thread has concerned me. I've looked at the shareoplane insurance cover and I dread to think of what would happen if I 'damaged' a high-value passenger, not that I fly them very often.

Still, if I'm on board, it might not be my problem...
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Old 26th Jan 2019, 22:22
  #625 (permalink)  
 
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Preventive measures; ¿ real or imaginary ?

Originally Posted by ve3id View Post
Let me try to make it simple:
1) A big piece of metal such as an aeroplane may fall out of the sky and kill you if things go wrong.
2) This has happened before and every time it happens there is a comprehensive analysis to try and prevent its recurrence.
3) When it does happen, rules and procedures are put in place to prevent it happening again. Sometimes nobody could have guessed the cause before it happened.
.........
Would you say that the Cork Accident followed the above trope?

It hardly needs stating, but just to avoid ambiguity, I don't think it does.

As I understand it, the Cork accident resulted in a very thorough, professional and extremely long drawn out enquiry with a host of recommendations which I posted many many pages back.

Followed by........

SILENCE


That's how I see it, at least.

But I am only a simple passenger, I have no knowledge of this industry other than what I read online and I would genuinely be delighted to hear that I am wrong in my assertions.

Not least as they apply to the supervisory authority in the state where I reside.

"If you think the CAA is pretty poor...."
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Old 26th Jan 2019, 22:24
  #626 (permalink)  
 
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Willy McKay has BY HIS OWN CONFESSION been using illegal public transport to move unsuspecting footballers around and has been doing it for years and there are people on these boards who have been aware of it. So let’s not fall for the very clever, calculating, cynical PR campaign to portray him as the victim.
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Old 26th Jan 2019, 22:25
  #627 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ve3id View Post
Let me try to make it simple:
1) A big piece of metal such as an aeroplane may fall out of the sky and kill you if things go wrong.
True. The risk assessment part of this is about making a well-informed judgement about whether that risk is worth taking. Being a generally risk-averse person I think about that kind of thing even when I fly commercial.

Personally, having thought about it, and having read this thread, in terms of acceptable risk I think I personally would still be willing to fly passenger on an SEP flight to the CI from France (a lot less water than from the UK) - in VMC and by day - if I was confident that the pilot was experienced with - and confident in - their aircraft and familiar with the locality.

What makes me uneasier is the apparent ease with which the impression can be given that doing so in exchange for payment is legal and insured when it very possibly is neither, all the more so if the flight is taking place for business purposes.

I think that apart from ethical issues, this makes me uneasy because what has been described as "commercial pressure" can really skew the pilot's risk assessment, especially of weather, and as a passenger I could be both a perpetrator and a victim in that. In one of the flights I mentioned I saw this in action and realise, after the fact, that I contributed to it. The thing that would most discourage me from flying that way again is the potential distortion caused by this "commercial pressure" in a neither-fish-nor-fowl situation where the pilot is neither a trusted friend nor a detached professional.

Also, while it is clearly madness to attempt to fly IFR if one is only qualified for VFR, it seems to me that qualifications alone do not a good pilot make. At least that's the impression I get from those on the commercial aviation boards talking about "children of the magenta line"...

For me this issue is really complicated because there are several interlinked but different questions - regulation, experience, pilot ability, business practices...

Originally Posted by Sir Niall Dementia View Post
And EUTYCHUS pro pilots are on this thread making it known, at the same time as trying to make a living, and sharing our experience with pilots who want to learn as well as paying huge fees to our regulator to ensure we're doing it right, while the regulator (who is paid to fight on our behalf) and us have our throats cut by a politician's pet plan. And if I seem angry I f***ing well am! 30 years, 17000 hours, regulated until I struggle to breathe sometimes, and a gas fitter with a poor reputation kills someone due to Christ knows what. From what I do know, I would have been protected by legislation and my employer on this trip as well as experience that can't be bought.
You make a good point, which many people don't often see I think, that legislation is ideally intended to protect us. I understand your frustration. However, while you and others are "making it known" on this thread, and I for one have learned a lot reading you (which is why I come here), it is unfortunately not realistic to expect yer average potential grey charter customer to come looking here. Time will tell whether this accident will result in any tightening of the rules or changes in popular perspective; it has certainly changed mine.
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Old 26th Jan 2019, 22:37
  #628 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Arkroyal View Post
The Telegraph 1632 26 Jan:

‘Willie McKay has said his family had been victimised after he was wrongly named as the owner of the plane. "We’ve gone through hell," he told The Telegraph. "Internet... People talking about my sons and everything.” He added: "We just tried to help the young guy. That’s all we did. Okay?"

McKay’s son, Mark, was the acting agent for Nantes in a move which made 28-year-old Sala a club-record transfer for Cardiff. Jack, signed for the club last year, exchanged a series of text messages with Sala, suggesting a private flight from Cardiff to Nantes, and then back to south Wales two days later.’

Poor Willie!

Some Favour!

Yes poor Willie,
Just tried to help a young guy, a 15.000.000 transfer, probably at least made 10% of that, so £1.500.000 - and you give the guy a Donkey to start with the new job, sorry no sympathy for McKay in this, I hope they get sued for all they have. Sure money will not bring the lives lost, but for some people money is the only thing that can teach them a lesson.

Would be interesting to see the communication between McKay, the operator and the pilot. Somehow I would not be surprised if some of this information is never found, deleted by mistake I would guess.

McKay sentenced the boy to death, by hiring a cowboy operator.
Anyone questioning if this was a commercial flight, need to see what was the premises for this flight. Sala was a commercial commodity, that needed to be transported from France to Cardiff, if it was something else Cardiff FC had ordered from France example a special light set for the stadium, it would have been a commercial flight as it was transporting Cargo. This commodity was a living human being, he was not flying for any other reason than commercial reasons.

Sure we can speculate why this accident happen, that is important, but we lack information to know enough. However the fact is that the flight should NEVER have taken place anyway, at least not with Sala onboard.
Would the pilot D.I have been in Nantes if Sala was not going to Cardiff? If the answer is No, than this just confirms this was a commercial operation, which the pilot was NOT qualified to operate.

The flight plan that was filed, was that an IFR flight plan? The initial one and the final one? Is this information available somewhere?
It's also interesting that the photo of Sala's luggage is omitted in the publicized edited text messages.

No doubt based on the Whats App message, Sala was not a happy man, when he was going onboard the airplane. McKay's job was to protect him against this kind of situations, instead he sent him into his death by doing this "favor" - sorry NO sympathy for McKay in this case.
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Old 26th Jan 2019, 22:39
  #629 (permalink)  
 
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Surely Nantes FC should use the transfer money to continue the search for Sala... it's only right.
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Old 26th Jan 2019, 22:48
  #630 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Contact Approach View Post
Surely Nantes FC should use the transfer money to continue the search for Sala... it's only right.
I wonder if McKay still get their commission? They could also add a little of their at least 10% commission.


"The football agent Willie McKay arranged for the flight to take Emiliano Sala from Nantes to Cardiff but claims he had no involvement in selecting the plane or pilot,"

As McKay has confirmed they have done the same on many previous occasions, it would be interesting to know what other aircraft they have been using in the past.
The lies of McKay can pretty quickly unravel, if he is trying to suggest that he is massively surprised with the choice of aircraft and pilot, as it seems to contradict previous statements. But should be easy to find records of previous used aircraft and pilots in the past.
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Old 26th Jan 2019, 22:54
  #631 (permalink)  
 
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Just a reminder it was one of Willie McKays sons Mark who's probably the agent making the money.
Although his father seems to have had these 'contacts' via Mr Henderson its been suggested.
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Old 26th Jan 2019, 23:10
  #632 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 2unlimited View Post
"The football agent Willie McKay arranged for the flight to take Emiliano Sala from Nantes to Cardiff but claims he had no involvement in selecting the plane or pilot,"

As McKay has confirmed they have done the same on many previous occasions, it would be interesting to know what other aircraft they have been using in the past.
The lies of McKay can pretty quickly unravel, if he is trying to suggest that he is massively surprised with the choice of aircraft and pilot, as it seems to contradict previous statements. But should be easy to find records of previous used aircraft and pilots in the past.
I'd like to agree with you, but if the transaction is in cash, and the aircraft not UK registered I think you've a slim chance. And when you're dealing in millions £4-£5 000 is easy to hide.

SND
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Old 26th Jan 2019, 23:28
  #633 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by cncpc View Post
It isn't possible to be high enough to glide to land if the engine calves for the entire segment between Guernsey and the on track shore crossing point. I may be missing your point, but two things. We know he wasn't "planning" to fly at MSA because he filed for higher. That aside, what is wrong with crossing the channel at MSA when IFR, or 100 feet when VFR? It's 75 miles from Guernsey to the far shoreline. He couldn't maintain 5000 and had to request lower to 2000, so the only glide to shore places were at best max 10 northwest of Guernsey, and no more than 10 short of the intended shore crossing point. I have flown a bit from Biggin Hill VFR to the Channel Islands, and sometimes that was at 1000 due to weather. Mind you, it was in a 310.

The assumption is they are down near Guernsey, and that is a good assumption. The truth may be they are five miles from Cardiff or really anywhere between Guernsey and Cardiff, including in the Bristol Channel. Sure, 80% in the search area, but in all of these circumstances, buck shee chisel chartering, the questionable legality of the flight if an emergency had been declared and questions asked, it is possible that this was a guy ducking down to get home, but IFR and unable to ask for lower than the MSA.

It doesn't seem that the pilot was fully at the races with IFR.
Sorry, I missed this reply CNCPC.
I perhaps should have been a little more eloquent in explaining that.
When I said "plan", I was meaning that at the point where he requested descent, surely he did not think that it was a good idea to continue on across the channel at 2300' in the current conditions.

You state that its perfectly fine to cross the channel at MSA, or at minimum VFR altitudes.
I'm sorry, but no. I have flown both piston and turbine singles in some of the most inhospitable places on earth and there is no way that this flight profile fits any form of flight safety given the conditions. You cannot compare flying a C310 at 1000' in what I am assuming was day VFR in good conditions to what transpired on this flight.

As a pilot carrying passengers, whether it be private or commercial, you have a duty of care for your passengers. Part of this, is always leaving yourself an out. Especially in a single engine aircraft.
The conditions that night made that flight profile beyond acceptable, the end result of which we have tragically witnessed.
The fact that he has requested descent and not a diversion to a nearby field is suggestive that he did not appreciate the danger that he was in at that point.
Looking at the situation that night, the pilot allowed the flight to continue into a situation where he had no alternatives.
I fear that he has been placed into a situation that he is not used to, and as murphy's law would have it, it was the worst possible night for it to happen. This pilot had just enough experience, and therefore confidence in his abilities, to get himself deeply into trouble.

Purely speculation here....
But the absence of Mode S may have made him think that higher altitudes were not available to him.
Commercial pressures that he has no experience with may have made him depart into unfavourable weather.
Night IMC and being unfamiliar in icing conditions may have lead him to push further into icing before realising that he had ice building up on the aircraft.
A fairly unfamiliar aircraft flying in conditions that he has most likely not experienced recently.
A somewhat cavalier approach to flying (As noted in his Facebook post) may have led to less than adequate preparation. Particularly in regards to weather.

There is also some change of some sort happening as per the text message exchange on the day of the flight. It was important enough to warrant a phone call. The reassuring text of "It is the same company" means (to me) either an aircraft change, or a pilot change. This may indicate why there is some confusion to the name of the pilot on the flight plan.
Has anyone confirmed that the Malibu was the actual aircraft that he flew to Nantes on? He requested leaving Cardiff at 1100 and the N264DB aircraft didn't leave until 1215 and was not direct as earlier inferred.

Whether this is an illegal commercial flight, or a private flight, is completely irrelevant in the cause of the crash. That is purely up to the lawyers and the validity of insurance cover. It will most likely come out that this was a legitimate private charter. I can only hope that this has put enough of a spotlight onto this type of charter and makes some passengers think twice before getting onto one.

I think that the assumption that they are anywhere but the channel islands is far fetched to say the least. Given that the UK is one of the worlds leading military super powers, I would be highly concerned if they couldn't pick up a malibu sized aircraft crossing the English channel at 2300', let alone it managing to fly all the way to Wales.

Last edited by lilflyboy262...2; 27th Jan 2019 at 00:15.
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Old 26th Jan 2019, 23:49
  #634 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by runway30 View Post


Hold on Aux. Willy McKay has BY HIS OWN CONFESSION been using illegal public transport to move unsuspecting footballers around and has been doing it for years and there are people on these boards who have been aware of it. So lets’s not fall for the very clever, calculating, cynical PR campaign to portray him as the victim.
+100
It will be a pleasure to hear his ludicrous defense of his absence of due diligence and failure to recognise the criminality involved in the numerous reported previous times he's arranged this sort of scam.

Own goal, leming!

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Old 26th Jan 2019, 23:50
  #635 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Eutychus View Post
True. The risk assessment part of this is about making a well-informed judgement about whether that risk is worth taking. Being a generally risk-averse person I think about that kind of thing even when I fly commercial.

Personally, having thought about it, and having read this thread, in terms of acceptable risk I think I personally would still be willing to fly passenger on an SEP flight to the CI from France (a lot less water than from the UK) - in VMC and by day - if I was confident that the pilot was experienced with - and confident in - their aircraft and familiar with the locality.

What makes me uneasier is the apparent ease with which the impression can be given that doing so in exchange for payment is legal and insured when it very possibly is neither, all the more so if the flight is taking place for business purposes.

I think that apart from ethical issues, this makes me uneasy because what has been described as "commercial pressure" can really skew the pilot's risk assessment, especially of weather, and as a passenger I could be both a perpetrator and a victim in that. In one of the flights I mentioned I saw this in action and realise, after the fact, that I contributed to it. The thing that would most discourage me from flying that way again is the potential distortion caused by this "commercial pressure" in a neither-fish-nor-fowl situation where the pilot is neither a trusted friend nor a detached professional.

Also, while it is clearly madness to attempt to fly IFR if one is only qualified for VFR, it seems to me that qualifications alone do not a good pilot make. At least that's the impression I get from those on the commercial aviation boards talking about "children of the magenta line"...

For me this issue is really complicated because there are several interlinked but different questions - regulation, experience, pilot ability, business practices...



You make a good point, which many people don't often see I think, that legislation is ideally intended to protect us. I understand your frustration. However, while you and others are "making it known" on this thread, and I for one have learned a lot reading you (which is why I come here), it is unfortunately not realistic to expect yer average potential grey charter customer to come looking here. Time will tell whether this accident will result in any tightening of the rules or changes in popular perspective; it has certainly changed mine.
Perhaps it is not 'commercial pressure', but 'celebrity pressure' or for want of a better description the want to please/impress somebody of high esteem to one. 30 years ago I took a flight that I personally had determined was unsafe in summer VFR as a low-time PPL with night rating therefore limited instrument time. The problem was that one of the sight-seeing passengers (brother of my landlady and uncle of her daughter who had 'pleased my eye)'was a met man from a major European airpoort who listened to the met with me and thought that it would be perfectly OK (isolated TRS). So we went. As we returned to base, ATC told me there were CBs over home base, and asked my intentions. I decided to turn back to the a/p we had just passed. ATC told me that CBs were rolling in over the lake behind me. As I was assessing alternatives, ATC suggested they could get me between two cells 10 miles apart back to home base. I took it. As I went between them, the C172 started getting such bad mechanical chop that I could not get air in my lungs to declare emergency as I did 180 in sudden IMC in controlled airspace.

Finally the cells dissipated and I landed back home, perfect landing at dusk with wet runway perfectly visible due water and reflected light from cloudy horizon. I wanted to kiss the ground. Passengers had no idea. Despite note to maintenance, plane crashed a week later due to 'freezing of controls. as PIC said at time. Fortunately none was injured.

So, no commercial pressure, incident involving plane later lost. Just trying to impress.

Last edited by ve3id; 27th Jan 2019 at 00:43.
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Old 26th Jan 2019, 23:51
  #636 (permalink)  
 
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its pointless using any cash.

The plane is likely in 75 plus m of water off the North of Alderney.

Guernsey Harbour Master doesn't have access to the hardware to find it. To find it will take a few days with a side scan sonar. To lift it will need 2-3 days with a saturation equipped diving vessel which will have to come down form the North sea. Your looking at half a million. AAIB won't pay for it and neither will Guernsey. And to be honest nothing will be solved if it is found and lifted.

Personally if I was the pilot I would want left down there.
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Old 26th Jan 2019, 23:52
  #637 (permalink)  
 
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Willie McKay, has allegedly said Cardiff FC were also aware of the travel arrangements for the missing player. In regards to the booking of the flight, Willie McKay has claimed he contacted David Henderson who has flown the McKay's and many of their players all over Europe on countless occasions in a statement that also included a declaration that the McKay's " had no involvement in selecting a plane or a pilot and wish to make clear we do not own the plane that Emiliano flew on.”

I am sure that somewhere the aircraft is loosely connected to the McKay family, over the years the McKay's have owned aircraft.
G-EEJE PA31 was owned by Mark McKay (Excelfoot ltd) between Sept 2015 & Oct 2017 and was operated by DH & a few other pilots who seem to be within the DH clique who regularly flew Jockeys & Football players around...... there is a pattern of risk within these pilots.
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Old 27th Jan 2019, 00:03
  #638 (permalink)  
 
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Well it's been some considerable time since I posted on here - this sad event has prompted me to look in. I'm quite frankly gobsmacked by reading through everything above!

The thing that amazes me most, is the fact that so many seemingly knowledgeable pilots and aviation folk have passed angry comments that the flight shouldn't have been comtemplated and go into detailed arguments concerning the many possible irregularities and contraventions to both law and commonsense.

A few of the truly angry comments come from folk who bemoan how they have been strangled by rules and regulations. Hmm.. For most of my working life, I've been in charge of large building sites and can't help but make some comparisons:- this single engined aircraft obviously flew into and landed at an airfield - who's job was it to check out both it and the driver? You may have all noticed that building sited have very obvious safety signage EVERYWHERE! And admission is strictly monitored - anyone arriving HAS to be checked, why they are there? What they intend doing, are they qualified to do it. All big sites have turnstile entry! All workers have to be signed in and have obligatory induction on safety and site awareness which has be signed up - this has to be in date. Workers MUST be in possession of all their "tickets" for the trade or job they intend to carry out and it is illegal for them to be inside the gate without them. Ultimately, it was MY responsiblity to see that everyone obeyed the rules and worked safe (not to mention the £multimillion expense and profits!) Any infringements would have been laid firmly at my feet! Woe betide any Site Agent who has a worker, visitor or passer by, killed or injured!! The sky literally falls.
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Old 27th Jan 2019, 00:11
  #639 (permalink)  
 
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Could it be that D. Henderson flew the Saturday outbound client run and arranged (for whatever reason and at short notice) for D. Ibbotson to collect from Nantes Monday.

Hence the 'assurance ' text....

4.23pm -McKay: "He said that it is the same company."
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Old 27th Jan 2019, 00:15
  #640 (permalink)  
 
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Certainly seems like this McKay fella arranged the flight to me.

Question on for my European counterparts: is cost-splitting the only reg you guys have dealing with this sort of "semi-commercial" op? In the colonies (ie the States), you have to:

a) share costs equally, to the penny. The pilot can't pay a cent less than his share.

b) only share DIRECT operating costs of the flight: aircraft rental, fuel, oil, etc. (no hangar fees, hourly kick-in for the engine overhaul, etc.)

and here is the bigly one:

c) COMMON purpose - the pilot not only has to have his own reason to be making that flight (an event, visiting family/friends, sightseeing, etc.), but it has to be COMMON between the pilot and the passengers. I as the pilot can't be going for lunch at the destination airport while my passenger goes to a meeting nearby.

You guys don't have any of that? I am literally flabbergasted that the EASA allows this stuff to go on. It will kill people, there is no doubt.
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