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Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

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Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

Old 25th Jan 2019, 21:04
  #501 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Luc Lion View Post
I believe this conversation derails on the cost sharing / wingly side.
There is no sign whatever indicating that the doomed flight was a cost sharing one.
There are indications that the agent mentioned above (McKay?) had access to the plane and that he had used the services of DI in the past for other private flights.
I don't think any individual in this sad story had problem facing the operating cost of this flight and I think it is very likely that the whole operating cost was taken by the flight organiser.
If my guesses are true, it's a genuine private flight.
It may be that the pilot was not properly licenced, but that's another issue.
The real issues that led to a disaster are how the flight was planned and conducted.

And for all these anathema on cost sharing, I think that most ordinary people have no idea that they can fly on a small airplane through some car-sharing schema.
Mr and Mrs Smith rightly think that cheap air travel is with low-cost airlines.
I think that most putative passengers looking for flights on wingly are attracted by the adventurous scent of flying in small airplanes.
Further, these activities are not taking any business away from air-taxi companies : regular air-taxi customers will never put their live at risk in a wingly flight and they have the money for professional air-taxis.

So, please leave aside this hysteria about cost sharing models and come back to this private flight that went fatally wrong.
No...... unfortunately you are wrong on so many counts. GA AOCs are closing.
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 21:09
  #502 (permalink)  
 
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Surprised they were not ramp checked, the French authorities seemed to be super keen on N reg aircraft originating from UK a while back. All documents checked albeit for VAT purposes mainly I thought.
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 21:13
  #503 (permalink)  
 
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Unfortunately the vast majority of people could not tell the difference between a 100hr TT PPL and an ex FJ 20K TT heavy Captain. to them they are a "pilot" and they make the assumption that a "pilot" can fly anything, ignorance is breathtaking.
100% correct - You only have to read the Wingly "reviews" ......... which appear to be written by the same person ..... all read exactly the same including for the 60 hour, 4 hours on type, highly experienced, knowledgeable, excellent pilot ..... says passenger Tom from Birmingham (Uber style)
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 21:21
  #504 (permalink)  
 
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To that I venture to reply that while my ignorance may be breathtaking (although somewhat reduced after participating here) if professional pilots want to counter the likes of Wingly, they need make the issues a lot simpler to understand if they expect us lesser mortals to have any chance of making useful distinctions.

Particular thanks to those who have taken the time to do some education for my benefit (and doubtless a lot of non-posting readers).
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 21:30
  #505 (permalink)  
 
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Cardiff City could launch a negligence claim over the Emiliano Sala plane disaster as the club faces a financial loss of around 14 million even after insurance payouts, The Daily Telegraph can disclose.

Senior figures at the club are increasingly concerned by the decision to fly their record signing across the English Channel in a single-engined plane built in 1984 and piloted by a part-time gas engineer.

Cardiff are now considering their legal position as they face a three-year contract bill estimated by accountants at 30million, including a 2.5million agents fee. Accident insurance is only likely to cover half the forecasted loss. One source payments from Cardiff to Nantes have been frozen until officials have established the facts from the crash.

Last night the club told The Telegraph: "Cardiff has made its position very clear that it had nothing to do with the arrangements of the flight, and now new information is coming in every day as we are continuing to investigate the chain of events and the cause of the accident. We are looking at the potential possibility of negligence that may have caused the accident.”

The flight was booked independently by Sala's agent and Mark McKay, an intermediary in the deal. Emergency service believe the plane crashed into the sea on Monday night after taking off from Nantes, north-west France. The club is particularly keen to discuss the chain of events with the owners of the US-registered Piper PA-46-310P Malibu. A portrait of Emiliano Sala displayed in front of the entrance of the FC Nantes football club training centre CREDIT: GETTY IMAGESFollow your club now for first access to all our news, views and analysis

CardiffA total 20million transfer fee had been agreed with Nantes, including a 3million bonus if the club survived relegation. Sala had been due at his first training session in Wales on Tuesday. The transfer documents had already been filed with the FA and Fifa. Cardiff "will pay whatever is due, once they have established all the answers and can determine all the facts", a source said.

The search for the aircraft officially ended on Thursday, against the wishes of his family. Rescue crews had covered an area of around 1,700 square miles of land and sea without finding any remains of the aircraft. Yesterday, Lionel Messi and Diego Maradona both supported calls to resume the search. A receptionist at the hotel where the pilot had been staying also added to the mystery by she believed the plane had been due to leave up to 10 hours before it eventually took off.

The club is believed to have had 16million (20.9m euros) of personal accident (PA) protection with the financial giant Lloyd’s to cover its players. Trade magazine Insurance Insider reports the club’s accident policy is led by China Re Syndicate 2088 and brokered by Miller. Sala’s name is likely to have been added to the Premier League club’s policy when the transfer was completed on January 19, just two days before his death. China Re’s lead line represents around 16 percent of the total limit, with other Lloyd’s insurers set to pay the rest of the claim. The Piper Malibu aircraft, which vanished off the coast of Guernsey, is also insured in the London market.

The minimum 17million transfer fee for the Argentinian striker, excluding the 3million Premier League survival bonus. was previously agreed to be paid in three instalments. The player's agent, Meissa N'Diaye, and McKay were also due huge windfalls.Romina Sala, sister of the missing footballer, pleaded with the authorities to continue the search for the missing plane on Friday CREDIT: GETTY IMAGESIn addition to the 30million bill - which includes Sala's projected salary and fees - the club is braced for a subsequent impact on revenue from sponsorship arrangements and shirt sales. One source said the club will pay Nantes "whatever they believe to be a fair amount once they have established all the possibilities, including any negligence claims".

The plane was built in 1984, and was registered in the United States rather than Britain through a company based in Norfolk.

The owners said in a statement issued by Southern Aircraft Consultancy they are "fully cooperating with the appropriate authorities, including the AAIB (air investigators) and police".

The pilot, Dave Ibbotson, held a private pilot's licence, according to US Federal Aviation Aviation Administration records. There is no public record of him having a commercial qualification. Ian Marshall, a friend of Mr Ibbotson’s who sat with him on the British Parachute Association council, told The Guardian: “Most of the pilots who have these private licences are semi-commercial. You’re not meant to fly for any financial reward but that’s not to say you can’t fly for reasonable expenses. That’s how many of them get around it."

Ken Choo, the chief executive, recognised the club is now facing a severe striker shortage as the transfer window expires. However, the interim Premier League chief executive Richard Masters has apparently told him the league is powerless to offer any special dispensations to make a signing beyond the end of January.

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Old 25th Jan 2019, 21:31
  #506 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Good Business Sense View Post
No...... unfortunately you are wrong on so many counts. GA AOCs are closing.
Apologies.
I wasn't aware there were so many low hours pilots advertising their services on Wingly in UK.
Where I am based, this activity is nonexistent.
I looked for flight offers from a small UK aerodrome I am familiar with and found 9 pilots advertising flights.
None with more than 350 flight hours, 2 with less than 100 hours, 1 with 14 hours on type.
Scary.
Anyhow, this is unrelated to the accident.
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 21:34
  #507 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by RatherBeFlying View Post
I am reminded of a jet charter into Aspen where the customers turned up late so that the arrival time would be in the dark, when the airport is closed. The HNW customer insisted that they absolutely had to be in Aspen. Unfortunately they hit an unlit hill on approach and missed the event.
Polish President, anybody ?

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Old 25th Jan 2019, 21:49
  #508 (permalink)  
 
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If this Piper was owned by Fay Keely and it's now sitting on the bottom of the English Channel, I wonder if the insurance will pay out if it was being operated illegally?

However I won't be at all surprised if it turns out that the aircraft had been hired and the pilot was volunteering -- flying for fun, as at any gliding club with a tug or at a jump club. Perfectly legal.

Flying into sev icing at night over water, however, was never going to end well. By all accounts the pilot didn't have the rating to fly IFR in Class A airways, safely above the weather. His other option would be to stay below the freezing level (about 3,000 ft that night); that would have been... Bold.
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 21:51
  #509 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Luc Lion View Post
Apologies.
I wasn't aware there were so many low hours pilots advertising their services on Wingly in UK.
Where I am based, this activity is nonexistent.
I looked for flight offers from a small UK aerodrome I am familiar with and found 9 pilots advertising flights.
None with more than 350 flight hours, 2 with less than 100 hours, 1 with 14 hours on type.
Scary.
Anyhow, this is unrelated to the accident.
Why is this scary? Are you (all) saying that PPL holders are unsafe to fly? Either they are or they aren't.
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 21:51
  #510 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by dsc810 View Post
I note that in 2007 the annual accounts says their Golden Eagle a/c was damaged the previous year.
The accident/incident involving the C421 occurred much earlier than that - between March 2001 and February 2002, according to the note in that year's accounts - and it "curtailed aviation activities" of the company.

Whatever it was that happened, it doesn't seem to have attracted the attention of the AAIB or the CAA.
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 21:51
  #511 (permalink)  
 
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The club should be looking at a huge loss even if insurance pays out, I can’t believe that is a certainty. I’ve just listened to an interview with the Chief Executive of Cardiff City and if I understand him correctly, they had liability for the money from the moment he signed. However they had no jurisdiction over his travel arrangements until the day he reported for training. A crazy situation to be in. If I was them, I would have insisted in wrapping the player in cotton wool. It looks like they will go after the aircraft owners, who don’t have a balance sheet that will give any great rewards, and the aircraft owners may also have a problem with insurance. The aircraft owners have finally made a statement but still not identifying themselves and still hiding behind the trustee company.

Last edited by runway30; 25th Jan 2019 at 22:17.
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 22:10
  #512 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Slowclimb View Post
Why is this scary? Are you (all) saying that PPL holders are unsafe to fly? Either they are or they aren't.
it is somewhat scary when a quick look at wingly for my local GA field has several pilots with identical reviews right down to the appalling english and spelling mistakes. One has managed 500 hours on the subject aeroplane out of a total of 360 😳

So full marks for cut and paste. Nul points for maths. As for the flying ability - neither I nor my kith and kin will be bothering to find out.

Whoever in authority thinks this is a good idea really needs to wake up.
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 22:13
  #513 (permalink)  
 
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Perhaps if this turns into the big scandal it deserves to it will have the beneficial effect of exposing the prevalance of grey charters and N reg schenanigans and hopefully also illustrate the insanity of swerves like Wingly. Maybe even the CAA will be shamed into some sort of action beyond indignant self-justifying bluster.

To trump Luc I looked up Winglys offering flights ex Cardiff and found one with 60 hrs TT and 3 on type, plus several offering Channel Islands trips.

This sort of madness needs to be stopped.
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 22:28
  #514 (permalink)  
 
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Hi, The Old fat one,

I tried to do this by private message but TOFO hs chosen to reject them.

Hi,

I see no point in posting this correction in the busy thread.

your post #137 (for now)

https://www.pprune.org/accidents-close-calls/617514-cardiff-city-footballer-feared-missing-after-aircraft-disappeared-near-channel-island-post10368303.html
(permalink)

In the thread -


cardiff-city-footballer-feared-missing-after-aircraft-disappeared-near-channel-island-7.html

Contains a link that does not work.

The correct link is:-

Ditching and Sea Survival

It's just gone wrong somehow.

The best solution I think is for you to edit the post.

Thank you for your insights.
jimjim1 is offline  
Old 25th Jan 2019, 22:31
  #515 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
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Originally Posted by Luc Lion View Post
Apologies.
I wasn't aware there were so many low hours pilots advertising their services on Wingly in UK.
Where I am based, this activity is nonexistent.
I looked for flight offers from a small UK aerodrome I am familiar with and found 9 pilots advertising flights.
None with more than 350 flight hours, 2 with less than 100 hours, 1 with 14 hours on type.
Scary.
Anyhow, this is unrelated to the accident.
Hi Luc, the public, certainly in the UK, won't buy anything unless it's on "special" - i.e. unless there is a deal. Just like the aviation experience market Wingly is offering GIFT VOUCHERS. Person A buys for Person B (say at XMAS) who then contacts the pilot - in particular, the person who receives the Gift Voucher knows absolutely nothing about PPLs, cost sharing, weather etc etc - flying clubs etc are getting toasted. Many AOCs are disappearing (fact from CAA).

In our area it's the helicopters which are stealing all the business. R22/R44 PPLs are taking people to posh hotels for lunch etc. It's getting a bit mad. I understand that certain airfields in the UK have banned Wingly and by Wingly we mean "cost sharing" charters.

PS it has everything to do with this accident
Rgds

Last edited by Good Business Sense; 25th Jan 2019 at 22:42.
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 22:48
  #516 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Luc Lion View Post
I don't think so.
You are not flying a single piston engine aircraft in bad weather, at night, in winter, over open sea, without a serious flight preparation, unless you are a reckless pilot.
This airplane had the potential for flying on top of the weather.
eh? And this flight turned out fine due to meticulous planning did it? You’ve started to try deflect on a number of posts. Do you have some vested interest in this? The pilot certainly didn’t use its potential for flying ‘on top of the weather’ as you so put it.

Last edited by helimutt; 26th Jan 2019 at 08:08.
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 23:08
  #517 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
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FRIDAY JANUARY 18

7:43pm - Jack McKay: "My dad has told me that you are going home tomorrow. He could organise a plane to take you direct to Nantes and to come back on Monday, at a time that suits you, so you can get to training on Tuesday."

7:51pm - Emiliano Sala: "Ah that is great. I was just in the middle of checking if there are some flights to get to Nantes tomorrow."

7:56pm - McKay: "He said he could organise a plane that would go direct to Nantes."

7:56pm - Sala: "How much will it cost?"

7:56pm - McKay: "Nothing. He said if you help me to score goals it's nothing."

7:59pm - Sala: "Hahaha with pleasure."

8:00pm: "We are going to score lots of goals."

8:01pm: "I want to leave tomorrow for Nantes at around 11am and come back on Monday night around 9pm to Cardiff if that is possible."

8:05pm - McKay: "Good. I'll send a message when that's sorted."

SUNDAY JANUARY 20

5:00pm - Jack McKay: "Hi there is it possible you could come back at seven in the evening on Monday night? Just because the pilot has to get home in the north after he gets to Cardiff."

5:01pm - Emiliano Sala: "Hi, Half past seven would be possible."

5:03pm - McKay: "Yes that's good."

5:05pm - Sala: [PICTURE OF LUGGAGE]: "Can you ask if I can bring this on the plane?"

5:06pm - McKay: "Good yeah."

5:07pm - Sala: "But is that going to be ok for the plane?"

McKay: "Yes there is space on the plane for your luggage."

5:12pm - Sala: "Ok."

MONDAY JANUARY 21

4:16pm - Jack McKay: "I'm going to call in a moment."

[Emiliano Sala voice message]

4.23pm - McKay: "He said that it is the same company."

4.27pm - Sala: "Ok thanks."
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 23:15
  #518 (permalink)  
 
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In a statement, McKay said: "In regards to the booking of the flight, we contacted David Henderson who has flown us and many of our players all over Europe on countless occasions.

"We had no involvement in selecting a plane or a pilot and wish to make clear we do not own the plane that Emiliano flew on. As the text messages show: Emiliano was not asked for payment for the flight.
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 23:29
  #519 (permalink)  
 
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Doesn't really reveal anything new any of that lot to be fair, other than Emiliano Sala being able to command a great level of writing English considering he's from South America and played his football in France.

I haven't heard any full interviews with him in the British media so he may have a great standard of English, but he only spoke Portuguese on the released tape recording from the night. I might be looking at it too deeply and being too suspicious, but something doesn't seem right to me.
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 23:29
  #520 (permalink)  
 
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The Telegraph: "The pilot, Dave Ibbotson, held a private pilot's licence, according to US Federal Aviation Aviation Administration records. There is no public record of him having a commercial qualification. Ian Marshall, a friend of Mr Ibbotson’s who sat with him on the British Parachute Association council, told The Guardian: “Most of the pilots who have these private licences are semi-commercial. You’re not meant to fly for any financial reward but that’s not to say you can’t fly for reasonable expenses. That’s how many of them get around it."

And there it is in a nutshell. I doubt he had any idea of what goes into an EASA CPL, let alone an ATPL, but he was "semi-commercial." The reported 10 hour delay would have caused havoc with a commercial pilot's duty hours and may have resulted in a delay until next day (once you've reported you are officially on duty) But it's fine as he was "semi-commercial." We used to have the BCPL for parachute pilots, instructors etc, maybe it needs to come back. In our office today the attitude of the fixed wing ATPLs present was "he should have climbed, far safer." But that's commercial training, not semi-commercial.

Luc Lion; please justify a 285 hour ppl offering flights from Redhill to Humberside in a PA32 at sixty five pounds per seat (you have to book all 4 he has available) so two hundred and sixty quid to go one way to an airport with no great attractions near by, but our intrepid aviator has business there, so goes there a lot and flogs his spare seats.

Helimutt; You and I must know each other. If you see it going on please report it. The CAA (rotary) are bursting to get one, especially in a congested area. I know of two schools who have banned customers for doing Thames sightseeing flights in R44's after I called them about it. The well known website will not take rotary now due to insurance (they can't get any) but they're abundant on FaceBook and many other platforms.

SND
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