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Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

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Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

Old 23rd Jan 2019, 10:37
  #121 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Right Way Up View Post
One person who hasn't been mentioned yet in all of this is his agent! I would have thought the chances he booked the flight are fairly high.
That type are unlikely, however gifted in the aspects of commercial football, to have a thorough going knowledge of the comparative risks of different modes of air travel.
In actual fact, their commercial grounding (And unabashed "Mr 10%ing") may lead them, whilst following their entreprenneurial instincts, to solutions that the rest of us wouldn't entertain.

How's that for politically and legally correct Mr Moderator ?


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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 10:46
  #122 (permalink)  
 
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Whatever happened, I hope the pilot took the necessary precautions and did not treat it as a 'hop' over the channel.
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 10:46
  #123 (permalink)  
 
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sea is bitterly, bitterly cold this time of year. Terrible news.
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 10:58
  #124 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Clare Prop View Post
I spent a few years flying VFR around the Channel Islands, the weather can change very quickly and there are some very strong sea currents around Alderney, so even if they got into a life raft they would still be in real trouble. How sad for all involved.
Also the vast swathes of rocky coastal shallows and tidal races, which that coast is famed for, would make getting ashore problematic even in good weather. And with the amount of large sized sea traffic ploughing, in darkness, up and down the channel, what chance making it anywhere near the shore, in a raft ?

N.
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 11:02
  #125 (permalink)  
 
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How would a football agent in France find an aircraft at Gamston then hire a pilot to fly it?
Even taking that into account it is probably more plausible than either Cardiff or the player himself.
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 11:05
  #126 (permalink)  
 
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I hope the pilot took the necessary precautions and did not treat it as a 'hop' over the channel.
As an ex RAF sea survival instructor (at Sqn level) I have posted on this subject several times in the past.

The only real precaution you can take is to have two engines. If the single fan stops when you over open ocean (Newton's Law of Universal Gravitation applies) and even if you manage to carry out a decent ditching (or water landing as we seem to call it) you chances are slim unless:

1. You have all the necessary survival gear
AND 2. you have been trained too use it in realistic conditions (realistic conditions = in the sea, not in a swimming pool)

It is the bit in bold that most people just don't get. And when it comes to discussing this with armchair experts, especially pilots that expound a view without ever having done real training, I always say this. If you haven't been chucked into a cold, dark, stormy sea from height at at least 20 miles per hour, then listen and learn from those who have.

And for the record, I understand and agree with those who aware of this and are still happy to transit single engine over the ocean. Some folk weigh life experience versus risk and embrace it. I do so myself as most of my hill-walking is solo. IMHO the equation alters however, when you take responsibility for the welfare of one or more other human beings.

The vast majority of survivable ditchings feature most of the following criteria:

Daylight
Flat/calm water
very close to land or a surface vessel
warm or mild weather/water
good drills
good training
good kit

Fly safe all.
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 11:20
  #127 (permalink)  
 
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For clarification this was a 1984 piston-engined Malibu, not a turbine one, with a TSIO-520-BE Lycoming engine
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 11:23
  #128 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by The Old Fat One View Post
As an ex RAF sea survival instructor (at Sqn level) I have posted on this subject several times in the past.

The only real precaution you can take is to have two engines. If the single fan stops when you over open ocean (Newton's Law of Universal Gravitation applies) and even if you manage to carry out a decent ditching (or water landing as we seem to call it) you chances are slim unless:

1. You have all the necessary survival gear
AND 2. you have been trained too use it in realistic conditions (realistic conditions = in the sea, not in a swimming pool)

It is the bit in bold that most people just don't get. And when it comes to discussing this with armchair experts, especially pilots that expound a view without ever having done real training, I always say this. If you haven't been chucked into a cold, dark, stormy sea from height at at least 20 miles per hour, then listen and learn from those who have.

And for the record, I understand and agree with those who aware of this and are still happy to transit single engine over the ocean. Some folk weigh life experience versus risk and embrace it. I do so myself as most of my hill-walking is solo. IMHO the equation alters however, when you take responsibility for the welfare of one or more other human beings.

The vast majority of survivable ditchings feature most of the following criteria:

Daylight
Flat/calm water
very close to land or a surface vessel
warm or mild weather/water
good drills
good training
good kit

Fly safe all.
Well, apparently the aircraft struggled to take off in Nantes. Now, I don’t know what the weather was like in Nantes, but given Sala messaged friends reporting the aircraft was feeling like it was going to fall apart, this may be more than just icing. Problems probably started on the ground.
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 11:26
  #129 (permalink)  
 
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Accident investigation and/or "enforcement" of rules

I have noticed one question on this matter and one reply, to the effect that it is not a UK issue.

I do not know.

However, the issue of cross-border enforcement (or more accurately non-enforcement?) of rules [including the black-holes relating to non-EU administrations within the broad EU geographical area] and the consequences reminds me of the Cork accident, now about 5 years ago. Early February, I seem to remember.

Has there been any progress in enforcing the recommendations of that particular Irish based investigation?
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 11:29
  #130 (permalink)  
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Well said Old Fat Crab.

Having done the same job in the RN, my first reaction to this sad event was absolute horror that anyone would entrust their lives to as risky an adventure as this.
I say 'adventure' because that is the word used by the gentleman in the BBC video about ferry flying. Whether he has any connection to this remains to be seen.
Indulging in risk for oneself is something we all do after weighing up how much of it we're prepared to take. To involve someone else who is totally ignorant of the risk and unable to make an informed choice in such a decision is unforgivable.

Hopefully lessons will be learnt and regulation tightened up, in our usual 'stable door' way. But as someone said earlier, we appear to have learnt nothing from Buddy Holly!
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 11:32
  #131 (permalink)  
 
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I agree but the lovely warm cabin and glowing panel lights give a sense of detachment from reality.

I guess the experience of having been lucky over the years also adds to the feeling that the inevitable might never happen.
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 11:33
  #132 (permalink)  
 
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I've bumped this...probably my most valuable contribution to PPRuNe, if anybody is interested

Ditching and Sea Survival

Old Fat Crab...made I chuckle
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 11:38
  #133 (permalink)  
 
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So who is leading on the Accident Investigation on this - nothing from the AAIB.
Originally Posted by AndoniP View Post
not under their jurisdiction I believe.
Yes it is - email just received from the AAIB...
On Monday night, a US-registered Piper PA-46-310P Malibu aircraft (registration N264DB) was lost from radar north of Guernsey. The aircraft was en route from Nantes, France to Cardiff, United Kingdom, with one pilot and one passenger on board.In accordance with international protocols, the AAIB is investigating the loss of the aircraft. Since Tuesday morning, we have been working closely with international authorities including the US National Transportation Safety Board, the Bureau d’Enquêtes & d’Analyses (BEA) in France and the Junta de Investigación de Accidentes de Aviación Civil (JIACC) in Argentina.We will be gathering all the available evidence to conduct a thorough investigation. However, if the aircraft is not found it is likely to limit the scope of the investigation.


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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 11:47
  #134 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Clare Prop View Post
I spent a few years flying VFR around the Channel Islands, the weather can change very quickly and there are some very strong sea currents around Alderney, so even if they got into a life raft they would still be in real trouble. How sad for all involved.
Could have been a special VFR clearance, very common in the CI control zone
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 11:49
  #135 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Nige321 View Post
Yes it is - email just received from the AAIB...
The formality is I believe the Baliff invites the AAIB to take over
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 11:49
  #136 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Chris Kebab View Post
So who is leading on the Accident Investigation on this - nothing from the AAIB.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/a...ircraft-n264db
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 11:55
  #137 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK View Post
We don't know that FR24 didn't track it.

It may well have a voluntary agreement, as it does with many corporate/private aircraft owners, not to publish flight details.
It is highly likely they did not track it. Yes, there are ways to get you off the radar of these private spy organizations, but if you agree with them, they only hid the aircraft information. I do have such agreement and FR24 does show a generic aircraft symbol without any further information, but does show it. Even further, also the other spy operations around did not record anything, so maybe they flew transponder off?
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 11:58
  #138 (permalink)  
 
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Press reporting...

Cardiff City's chairman Mehmet Dalman has revealed that their new star, just signed for £15million from FC Nantes, turned down a commercial flight from Paris and booked the private plane himself.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ling-hope.html

My only experience of the Malibu has been a couple of front seat trips in the turbine version which flys like a pocket rocket.





Last edited by Mike Flynn; 23rd Jan 2019 at 12:16.
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 11:59
  #139 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Fostex View Post
Agree, it is just a matter of time before Wingly claims it's first victim.

Interestingly, my insurance policy explicitly forbids Wingly style flights - I wonder how many people are offering Wingly flights in aircraft for which this is the case.
Many ... 10chars
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 12:11
  #140 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Mike Flynn View Post
"booked the private plane himself" is somewhat in contrast to other press reports according to which the aircraft is believed to have been owned by an agent involved in the transfer:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/footb...-willie-mckay/
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