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Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

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Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

Old 23rd Jan 2019, 12:20
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For clarification this was a 1984 piston-engined Malibu, not a turbine one, with a TSIO-520-BE Lycoming engine
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 12:26
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Accident investigation and/or "enforcement" of rules

I have noticed one question on this matter and one reply, to the effect that it is not a UK issue.

I do not know.

However, the issue of cross-border enforcement (or more accurately non-enforcement?) of rules [including the black-holes relating to non-EU administrations within the broad EU geographical area] and the consequences reminds me of the Cork accident, now about 5 years ago. Early February, I seem to remember.

Has there been any progress in enforcing the recommendations of that particular Irish based investigation?
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 12:29
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Well said Old Fat Crab.

Having done the same job in the RN, my first reaction to this sad event was absolute horror that anyone would entrust their lives to as risky an adventure as this.
I say 'adventure' because that is the word used by the gentleman in the BBC video about ferry flying. Whether he has any connection to this remains to be seen.
Indulging in risk for oneself is something we all do after weighing up how much of it we're prepared to take. To involve someone else who is totally ignorant of the risk and unable to make an informed choice in such a decision is unforgivable.

Hopefully lessons will be learnt and regulation tightened up, in our usual 'stable door' way. But as someone said earlier, we appear to have learnt nothing from Buddy Holly!
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 12:32
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I agree but the lovely warm cabin and glowing panel lights give a sense of detachment from reality.

I guess the experience of having been lucky over the years also adds to the feeling that the inevitable might never happen.
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 12:33
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I've bumped this...probably my most valuable contribution to PPRuNe, if anybody is interested

Ditching and Sea Survival

Old Fat Crab...made I chuckle
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 12:38
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So who is leading on the Accident Investigation on this - nothing from the AAIB.
Originally Posted by AndoniP View Post
not under their jurisdiction I believe.
Yes it is - email just received from the AAIB...
On Monday night, a US-registered Piper PA-46-310P Malibu aircraft (registration N264DB) was lost from radar north of Guernsey. The aircraft was en route from Nantes, France to Cardiff, United Kingdom, with one pilot and one passenger on board.In accordance with international protocols, the AAIB is investigating the loss of the aircraft. Since Tuesday morning, we have been working closely with international authorities including the US National Transportation Safety Board, the Bureau d’Enquêtes & d’Analyses (BEA) in France and the Junta de Investigación de Accidentes de Aviación Civil (JIACC) in Argentina.We will be gathering all the available evidence to conduct a thorough investigation. However, if the aircraft is not found it is likely to limit the scope of the investigation.


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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 12:47
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Originally Posted by Clare Prop View Post
I spent a few years flying VFR around the Channel Islands, the weather can change very quickly and there are some very strong sea currents around Alderney, so even if they got into a life raft they would still be in real trouble. How sad for all involved.
Could have been a special VFR clearance, very common in the CI control zone
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 12:49
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Originally Posted by Nige321 View Post
Yes it is - email just received from the AAIB...
The formality is I believe the Baliff invites the AAIB to take over
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 12:49
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Originally Posted by Chris Kebab View Post
So who is leading on the Accident Investigation on this - nothing from the AAIB.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/a...ircraft-n264db
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 12:55
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK View Post
We don't know that FR24 didn't track it.

It may well have a voluntary agreement, as it does with many corporate/private aircraft owners, not to publish flight details.
It is highly likely they did not track it. Yes, there are ways to get you off the radar of these private spy organizations, but if you agree with them, they only hid the aircraft information. I do have such agreement and FR24 does show a generic aircraft symbol without any further information, but does show it. Even further, also the other spy operations around did not record anything, so maybe they flew transponder off?
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 12:58
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Press reporting...

Cardiff City's chairman Mehmet Dalman has revealed that their new star, just signed for £15million from FC Nantes, turned down a commercial flight from Paris and booked the private plane himself.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ling-hope.html

My only experience of the Malibu has been a couple of front seat trips in the turbine version which flys like a pocket rocket.





Last edited by Mike Flynn; 23rd Jan 2019 at 13:16.
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 12:59
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Originally Posted by Fostex View Post
Agree, it is just a matter of time before Wingly claims it's first victim.

Interestingly, my insurance policy explicitly forbids Wingly style flights - I wonder how many people are offering Wingly flights in aircraft for which this is the case.
Many ... 10chars
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 13:11
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Originally Posted by Mike Flynn View Post
"booked the private plane himself" is somewhat in contrast to other press reports according to which the aircraft is believed to have been owned by an agent involved in the transfer:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/footb...-willie-mckay/
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 13:16
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Originally Posted by ChickenHouse View Post
It is highly likely they did not track it. Yes, there are ways to get you off the radar of these private spy organizations, but if you agree with them, they only hid the aircraft information. I do have such agreement and FR24 does show a generic aircraft symbol without any further information, but does show it. Even further, also the other spy operations around did not record anything, so maybe they flew transponder off?
So, you think they flew transponder on until they decided to descend from 5000', then switched it off? They were being tracked on radar and they lost contact at around 2300' from what I gather.

The weather and seas around Casquets that evening weren't favourable. The next day the sea was still running probably 1-2m in places, with a strong wind. It has been cold in the Channel Islands the last few days, and yes, the weather can change very quickly down there. If the weather isn't good enough for VFR, without going IFR you may be given Special VFR in the Zone. The whole idea of flying over the channel at night, in winter, in icing conditions, in an old single, without lifejackets (unconfirmed) and no goon suits (unconfirmed), why would you even consider it? Ok if you wish to take the risk yourself, but to put the life of others at risk?
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 13:18
  #135 (permalink)  
 
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We know the N-number, we know the pilot. It wasn't owned by his agent. There were no "stress" issues, and I guarantee you it didn't "struggle to take off in Nantes", nor did his phone cause it to crash. Amazing how many amateur, non-pilot comments there are.

Guy had had to get somewhere. Took off in bad weather. Got icing. Crashed.

It's happened before and it will happen again.
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 13:23
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According to one US aviation database, although the Owner Trustee was Southern Aircraft Consulting, the actual UK owner was a Ms Fay Keely of Coolflourish Limited, Mansfield
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 13:37
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This report from the Times
Emiliano Sala was travelling on a plane believed to belong to Scottish agent Willie McKay when he disappeared over the English Channel. The Argentine forward, who became Cardiff City’s record signing after joining the club from Nantes in a £15 million transfer last week, is feared dead after his light aircraft disappeared from radar screens, although a search has resumed this morning.

Sala was travelling in a Piper PA-46 Malibu aircraft, a single-engine, six-seat plane, with the pilot the only other passenger on board as he made the journey back to Cardiff on Monday evening after returning to Nantes to say goodbye to his former team-mates. The plane is registered to a holding company in Suffolk called Southern Aircraft Consultancy, with a registration number N264DB, but is believed to be owned by McKay, an influential and experienced agent.




McKay is not Sala’s representative, but was involved in brokering the transfer between Cardiff and Nantes and appears to have offered to arrange the player’s travel arrangements. The plane has yet to be found, but there is no suggestion that it suffered a technical fault or was unsuitable for making such a journey. McKay has excellent contacts clubs in the south of France in particular and has brought many French and African players to the Premier League over the years. McKay had not responded to The Times at the time of publication.

The Cardiff chairman Mehmet Dalman confirmed today that the club were not involved in making Sala’s travel arrangements. Cardiff have access to several jets and offered to assist, but he told them his travel plans had already been made as it was a personal rather than a club trip.

“I can say to you categorically that the plane had nothing to do with Cardiff City,” Dalman said. “We were not involved in booking the plane. In fact, we are trying to ascertain ourselves exactly what did happen. The club is looking into the matter and we want to find answers too.




We spoke to the player and asked him if he wanted us to make arrangements for his flight which, quite frankly, would have been commercial. I can’t tell you who arranged the flight because I don’t know at this stage — but it certainly wasn’t Cardiff City.”

Richard Taylor of the Civil Aviation Authority said today that the Piper PA-46 was capable of making such a journey safely.

“Single engine aircraft can be chartered,” Taylor said. “We don’t know what the status of this particular flight was — whether a commercial or private flight. There’s nothing preventing a single engine aircraft flying commercially at night. They were restricted to daytime under commercial operations until a few years ago for a turbine engine aircraft. They can now fly at night and in difficult conditions. But we don’t know what engine this aircraft has.”
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/p...ckay-28h7k8vc8
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 13:41
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Originally Posted by Cambridge172 View Post
According to one US aviation database, although the Owner Trustee was Southern Aircraft Consulting, the actual UK owner was a Ms Fay Keely of Coolflourish Limited, Mansfield
She appears to be an accountant and not necessarily the beneficial owner of the aircraft.
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 13:45
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Originally Posted by Gurnard View Post
Icing sounds very likely, but what about the possible effect upon instruments if the passenger was not using his phone in "flight safe mode"? Evidently he was busy sending messages indicating that he was uneasy.

I'm an electronic engineer with too many years designing safety related electronic equipment. The effect of modern mobile phones on modern electronic equipment should be negligible.


Pitot static and gyro systems are not even electronic. So old style gauges - airspeed, horizon, altitude, turn coordinator, heading, VSI will be completely unaffected.


Modern GPS/glass cockpit systems will be certified to EMC (electromagnetic compatibility) regulations so *should* also be completely unaffected.


There is always the outside chance of something weird happening, but I would put the real world issues - icing / WX / night / single engine / long stretch of water / winter - as almost certainly the real causes. I would be stunned if EMC had anything to do with this.
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 13:48
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Pilot named in multiple press sources now and aircraft claimed to be owned by, 'football agent Willie McKay':


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...d-send-me.html

https://www.grimsbytelegraph.co.uk/n...-named-2460307

The pilot missing after his plane is thought to have crashed carrying Argentinian footballer Emiliano Sala has been identified as Dave Ibbotson from Northern Lincolnshire.

Mr Ibbotson, an experienced private pilot from Crowle near Scunthorpe, is missing along with Sala after their plane vanished flying from the French city of Nantes to Wales where he had just signed for Cardiff City.

The Piper PA-46 Malibu being flown by Mr Ibbotson went missing on Monday evening near the Channel Islands.

It is understood Mr Ibbotson, had been hired along with the Norfolk-registered single engine plane, by Sala’s representatives to fly the player to Cardiff after he had said his farewells to team-mates at his old club Nantes.

Mr Ibbotson, who worked as a gas engineer based in Crowle, is believed to have had extensive experience carrying parachute enthusiasts on flights from private airfields.

Last edited by strake; 23rd Jan 2019 at 13:59.
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