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Cirrus down near Sherburn.

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Cirrus down near Sherburn.

Old 27th Nov 2017, 09:10
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Originally Posted by Pilot DAR View Post
It is possible in most aircraft (Piper Cub difficult) to have a controlled descent at a lesser power faster than stall speed
Surely the aircraft would still be moving forward relative to the air, so the ground speed can't be zero on impact, unless there's an equal and opposite headwind, or it nose dived in. I suppose, if the power to weight ratio was high enough, it could descend vertically, but then the tail would hit first.
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Old 27th Nov 2017, 09:49
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Originally Posted by Duchess_Driver View Post
Yes, youíre correct about the deployments above Vpd. Thatís the certificated speed. What I didnít realise was that the first successful recovery of an aircraft by parachute was back in the 1920ís so itís nothing new.

Itís a mindset you need to develop through scenario based training. People still forget itís there or have a Ďmachoí ďI can handle thisĒ attitude.
Exactly right!

Aero Poznan has a full motion simulator including the ability to pull the chute and offer exactly this kind of training. I did the equivalent course on a simulator in the US and it is well worth doing for any Cirrus Pilot.
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Old 27th Nov 2017, 14:02
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Surely the aircraft would still be moving forward relative to the air,
Yes. However, the motion through the air is not always purely horizontal, and aircraft can have motion through the air which has a vertical component. At the bottom, pilot pulls, aircraft pitches up, though motion downward continues (with the addition of a stall warning horn now) and impact. I've erred into this a couple of times. If the surface is not firm, it'll grab you, and stop you in a short distance (I have experience with that last summer).

When I train pilots on draggy aircraft like amphibious floatplanes, this scenario is a factor in the training, and is practiced. In the same aircraft, a glide approach could be at 60 knots, or at 80 knots. The 80 knots glide will give the pilot time to flare, and arrest the rate of descent, the 60 knot approach in the same aircraft will not. If the surface is not firm, it's going to grab you in any case.

I'm not saying that this is what happened in this accident, though when I see an upright aircraft (which is good) on the ground, with the engine peeled off, that comes to mind.
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Old 28th Nov 2017, 19:54
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And the `elephant in the room is`...How can you be overhead an airfield with 6 runways at approx 2000ft,and end up a mile short of the airfield,with ,or without power...????
Do people not practice a PFL over or close to an airfield...?
A 20-30deg. banked turn is all that is needed,aiming for about 1/3 of a runway initially,flying at the correct speed,balanced turns and adjusting the aiming point to land by `S`turns,sideslips.....NEVER ,ever `turn your back` on the target and try to do a `straight-in` F/Landing.
And ,if crashing seems inevitable,then, crash under control....!!!
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Old 28th Nov 2017, 20:18
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Originally Posted by airpolice View Post
I am confused about how you do a wide circuit, but are out of glide range, without thinking at some point, what if.......
Please can someone explain to be the serious concern some people have about not flying the downwind leg out of gliding range of the airfield, when the entire en-route section of the flight has just been performed outside gliding range of any airfield? What do they think the engine knows about being in the circuit that will upset it?
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Old 28th Nov 2017, 20:51
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Sorry guys,I had presumed that the end result had been because of an earlier problem,leading to some kind of f/landing,so it looks even more bizarre to end up as it did...
Unfortunately,a lot of pilots seem to extend the downwind leg ,and dragging in on final from a couple of miles,instead of a glide approach and short final.Extending upwind is easier for spacing with multiple a/c in the circuit,but there will always be jokers who join `long final,just in binocular range,and screw up the pattern...
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Old 28th Nov 2017, 23:06
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Originally Posted by soay View Post
A SR22 stalls at about 60kts with flaps down, and I doubt it would be possible to keep its wings level if the forward speed dropped much below that. Maybe there was a 60kt headwind!
You'd be surprised just how docile a Cirrus in a co-ordinated stall can be. The wing is so shaped that it stalls at the root first, causing terrific buffeting to warn the pilot, whilst allowing the wingtip to continue flying, meaning that the ailerons are still effective and can be used to level the wings and keep descending, fully stalled, with the wings parallel to the ground.
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Old 29th Nov 2017, 07:17
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Don't forget this was a Cirrus aircraft, not your usual C150 or Tomahawk. Its speed in the circuit is likely to be 130 knots, so a much larger circuit will be flown. Also it has been said that they are a very 'slippery' airplane and take a lot of space to slow down. So a three mile final is quite a possibility, ( compared with a half mile final of a c150.)


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Old 29th Nov 2017, 09:18
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130kts in the pattern!!! Really?? Who flies the pattern above a speed you can use even the first stage of flap? The only reason you'd need a 3-mile final is if you were flying way too fast - and 130 is way too fast
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Old 29th Nov 2017, 09:30
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Its speed in the circuit is likely to be 130 knots
Really?

very 'slippery' airplane and take a lot of space to slow down.
Speed mgt is part of the PPL syllabus, integrated into the Handling and Performance section.

a half mile final of a c150
Sorry, but is this the way you fly?

There have been several threads on here about flying circuit patterns at airfields. A lot of it is also contained in the AIP of the airfield you are arriving at.

I no nothing about this incident other than whats above and it looks like a positioning issue, to begin with.
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Old 29th Nov 2017, 10:17
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I agree with maxed and airpolice. You fly the plane, you don't let the plane fly you.
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Old 29th Nov 2017, 13:43
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Its speed in the circuit is likely to be 130 knots
Huh? Why? I have some SR20 time, though it was a while ago (not an aircraft I want to fly ever again, either). Vs1 is 61 knots, so Vref is 90-95. No reason to go faster than that in the pattern, maybe 100 on downwind. Which is pretty much what I do in my 182 (downwind - I aim for 65-70 over the numbers).
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Old 29th Nov 2017, 16:01
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Here is a copy of the POH for the SR-22T:

http://servicecenters.cirrusdesign.com/techpubs/pdf/POH/SR22-005/pdf/Online13772-005.pdf

Wishing a speedy recovery to the pilot and the pax.
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Old 29th Nov 2017, 16:53
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I Airpolice, you say... I'm also curious about the need for a much larger circuit, just because the speed is higher.


It's all about scale and time available, a slow Piper Cub can quite easily fit a circuit inside almost every other aircraft, and would never require more than a one mile Final. An Airbus or Boeing will always aim to have a six to ten mile final, they are often asked to control their speed to a standard 160 knots to 4 miles. The Cirrus just sits somewhere between these two extremes.
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Old 30th Nov 2017, 10:04
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An Airbus or Boeing will always aim to have a six to ten mile final
Always...

No...

Generally the minimum height above threshold to be wings level on a circling approach is 300 ft; that would be at one mile. Visual circuits are easily done with wings level at two miles or so.
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Old 3rd Dec 2017, 19:21
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"a slow Piper Cub can quite easily fit a circuit inside almost every other aircraft, and would never require more than a one mile Final."

A Cub should never require more than a 1/4 mile final (and that's pushing it!). Abeam the numbers carb heat on, power back, trim, start turning base......
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Old 4th Dec 2017, 04:56
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Well, yes, but sometimes when flying a cub one has to fit in with other traffic. We don't all confine ourselves to bimbling around local from a farm strip, pleasant though that is.
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Old 4th Dec 2017, 08:33
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Also it has been said that they are a very 'slippery' airplane and take a lot of space to slow down.
Yet another reason to slow up before entering the circuit pattern - it's called energy management.
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Old 4th Dec 2017, 09:01
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Fair point PC. Having read SciFi suggest that 130kts in the circuit was normal for a Cirrus I thought they meant that a 1-mile final was normal in a Cub. Fitting in is a bit different - you gotta do what you gotta do. I must confess that the last time I took a Cub-like contraption on a bimble of any length (LA-SF in a Champ) I did make a mental note to stick to farm strips in Cubs, and take something a bit quicker for the longer legs!

FFB - bang on.
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