Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Accidents and Close Calls
Reload this Page >

Cirrus down near Sherburn.

Accidents and Close Calls Discussion on accidents, close calls, and other unplanned aviation events, so we can learn from them, and be better pilots ourselves.

Cirrus down near Sherburn.

Old 25th Nov 2017, 16:10
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Simply Towers.
Posts: 863
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Cirrus down near Sherburn.

Looks like a Cirrus flying into or out of Sherburn has ended up in a field near Hambleton North Yorks. 2 injured.
http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/1568...rkshire_field/

Last edited by Simplythebeast; 25th Nov 2017 at 17:14.
Simplythebeast is offline  
Old 25th Nov 2017, 16:37
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: the dark side
Posts: 287
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The Cirrus involved appears to be based at Oxford
horatio_b is offline  
Old 25th Nov 2017, 21:03
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: uk
Age: 61
Posts: 714
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
From: https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=201834

Airplane damage: Substantial
Location: SE of Sherburn-in-Elmet Airfield, North Yorkshire - United Kingdom
Phase: Landing
Nature: Private
Departure airport: Leeds East Airport (EGXG)
Destination airport: Sherburn-in-Elmet Airfield (EGCJ)

Narrative:
The aircraft experienced a force landing in open terrain southeast of Sherburn-in-Elmet Airfield, North Yorkshire, England. The aircraft sustained substantial damage and the two occupants onboard apparently received serious injuries.
007helicopter is offline  
Old 26th Nov 2017, 01:06
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Uk
Posts: 213
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Flight Radar is a spotters site and a pretty inaccurate one at that....Iím sure the AAIB will use their own reliable sources thank you.
3wheels is offline  
Old 26th Nov 2017, 10:34
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: n/a
Posts: 1,425
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I’m sure the AAIB will use their own reliable sources thank you.
I'm not...a non fatal light aircraft accident in the UK will normally be investigated by correspondence. There is a cost-benefit decision about getting other data, which for a Cirrus would include the onboard recorder.

When using FR24's data, like any source of information, you have to understand the limitations of the data you are using. With that in mind FR24 and other citizen reporting type things are really good.
Daysleeper is offline  
Old 26th Nov 2017, 10:50
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Cambridge
Posts: 911
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
There is a cost-benefit decision about getting other data, which for a Cirrus would include the onboard recorder.
The data from the flight recorder can be used to reconstruct the circumstances of the accident quite accurately.

Best wishes for a good recovery to those involved.
Jonzarno is offline  
Old 26th Nov 2017, 14:11
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: S.E.Asia
Posts: 1,879
Received 7 Likes on 4 Posts
It appears all aircraft tracking and altitude information will soon be in the public domain.

How long will it be before insurance companies use this to assess premiums?
Mike Flynn is offline  
Old 26th Nov 2017, 16:01
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 1,248
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Don't these things have a parachute system available?
Contact Approach is online now  
Old 26th Nov 2017, 16:03
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Lechlade, Glos.UK
Posts: 775
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Contact Approach View Post
Don't these things have a parachute system available?
Yes, but not advised to use below 1000 feet.
sharpend is offline  
Old 26th Nov 2017, 16:10
  #10 (permalink)  
Moderator
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Ontario, Canada
Age: 61
Posts: 5,321
Received 5 Likes on 5 Posts
The photos show the parachute compartment uncovered, but the straps which connect the parachute to the airframe do not appear to be opened. From this, I conclude that the parachute was not deployed. The flaps appear to be extended, suggesting a planned approach descent. If I understand Cirrus parachute use correctly, there is an altitude below which the parachute cannot be effectively deployed. Perhaps they were below that altitude.

The appearance of the engine and cowl as a whole having been peeled downward, and lots of mud sprayed around, suggests a sudden stop in soft ground (as opposed to a rollout). If the ground were firm, contact with a high rate of descent can also do this to an airframe.

In any case, this was a sudden stop for the occupants. The injuries described are consistent with the sudden stop.
Pilot DAR is offline  
Old 26th Nov 2017, 17:48
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Glens o' Angus by way of LA
Age: 59
Posts: 1,974
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Pilot DAR View Post
The photos show the parachute compartment uncovered, but the straps which connect the parachute to the airframe do not appear to be opened. From this, I conclude that the parachute was not deployed. The flaps appear to be extended, suggesting a planned approach descent. If I understand Cirrus parachute use correctly, there is an altitude below which the parachute cannot be effectively deployed. Perhaps they were below that altitude.

The appearance of the engine and cowl as a whole having been peeled downward, and lots of mud sprayed around, suggests a sudden stop in soft ground (as opposed to a rollout). If the ground were firm, contact with a high rate of descent can also do this to an airframe.

In any case, this was a sudden stop for the occupants. The injuries described are consistent with the sudden stop.

The rescue services approach small plane wrecks rather gingerly now that many microlights and the cirrus have ballistic parachutes, when I minced my Maule the first thing the fire dept. guy asked upon arrival was "does it have a chute? "

As for FR24 I absolutely love it, it showed my Maule doing 240 kts on today's 90kts bimble.
piperboy84 is offline  
Old 26th Nov 2017, 17:55
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 1,248
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I never understand why people link FR24 data when it is mostly unreliable - particularly for GA stuff.
Contact Approach is online now  
Old 26th Nov 2017, 18:14
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: England
Posts: 551
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The disconcerting thing about those photos is that it looks like the aircraft landed with no ground speed at all, even though the prop must still have been turning. You can't even see where the undercarriage dragged across the grass. It's more what you'd expect to see if it came down under the chute, but clearly that was not deployed. Weird.
soay is offline  
Old 26th Nov 2017, 20:16
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: England
Posts: 551
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by airpolice View Post
Or.... if it stalled, and came straight down.
A SR22 stalls at about 60kts with flaps down, and I doubt it would be possible to keep its wings level if the forward speed dropped much below that. Maybe there was a 60kt headwind!
soay is offline  
Old 26th Nov 2017, 21:31
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hotel this week, hotel next week, home whenever...
Posts: 1,494
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Yes, but not advised to use below 1000 feet.
Three bands, based on AGL.

Below 500’ (600’ G5 and up) no point as it is unlikely to deploy fully/properly in time.
Below 2000, don’t take too long to think about it.
Above 2000 assess and deploy as appropriate. Recommended that when not within gliding distance of a suitable landing strip.

Parachute deployment speed circa 133kt depending on model.
Duchess_Driver is offline  
Old 26th Nov 2017, 22:15
  #16 (permalink)  
Moderator
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Ontario, Canada
Age: 61
Posts: 5,321
Received 5 Likes on 5 Posts
stalls at about 60kts with flaps down, and I doubt it would be possible to keep its wings level if the forward speed dropped much below that.
It is possible in most aircraft (Piper Cub difficult) to have a controlled descent at a lesser power faster than stall speed, but the rate of descent is so great that even with application of power there is not enough reserve to arrest the rate of descent, and a hard landing results. This may be accompanied by a stall warning at the "Oh sh*t!" moment as the pilot pulls to arrest the descent, and the plane keeps going down. The forward speed can be very slow. After that, it's simply a matter of how strong the landing gear is.

Aircraft modified with STOL kits are particularly susceptible to this.
Pilot DAR is offline  
Old 27th Nov 2017, 08:35
  #17 (permalink)  
Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 14,026
Received 10 Likes on 3 Posts
Thoughts...

- Of course people link FR24 data, as it's the only thing usually in the public domain. But yes, it's unreliable being comprised of a merger of data from multiple "amateur" receivers. A lot of that is very good, but I'm not aware of any serious study analysing the data quality available from it; I have heard enough anecdotes from pilots who have seen their aircraft on FR24 particularly at markedly different altitudes to what they knew they were flying at, to distrust it.

- Re: AAIB, yes they can access secondary and even primary radar returns, which are much more informative. But there may be no good reason to. AAIB's job is to provide recommendations that can prevent a future accident. Only they can judge the complexity of investigation needed to achieve that, but often yes - it can be done purely by correspondence. Sometimes not.

- It's a Cirrus, it's full of computers and likely to have a very accurate downloadable flight track. However, the owner and most likely AAIB have that, we don't.

G
Genghis the Engineer is offline  
Old 27th Nov 2017, 08:58
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Cambridge
Posts: 911
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Duchess_Driver View Post
Three bands, based on AGL.

Below 500í (600í G5 and up) no point as it is unlikely to deploy fully/properly in time.
Below 2000, donít take too long to think about it.
Above 2000 assess and deploy as appropriate. Recommended that when not within gliding distance of a suitable landing strip.

Parachute deployment speed circa 133kt depending on model.
There have been several successful deployments at IAS above 133 including a couple above 180 KTS. Current advice is to pull even if above 133. The only known case of the chute pulling off the plane was at above 350 KTS in an uncontrolled descent following a severe icing encounter.
Jonzarno is offline  
Old 27th Nov 2017, 09:05
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Cambridge
Posts: 911
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
It's a Cirrus, it's full of computers and likely to have a very accurate downloadable flight track. However, the owner and most likely AAIB have that, we don't.
That’s true. In accidents that have happened in the US, the COPA Director of Safety, who occasionally posts here, has been able to reconstruct and publish accident scenarios, including animations, based on the data recorded.
Jonzarno is offline  
Old 27th Nov 2017, 09:10
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hotel this week, hotel next week, home whenever...
Posts: 1,494
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Yes, youíre correct about the deployments above Vpd. Thatís the certificated speed. What I didnít realise was that the first successful recovery of an aircraft by parachute was back in the 1920ís so itís nothing new.

Itís a mindset you need to develop through scenario based training. People still forget itís there or have a Ďmachoí ďI can handle thisĒ attitude.
Duchess_Driver is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright © 2022 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.