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Accidents and Close Calls Discussion on accidents, close calls, and other unplanned aviation events, so we can learn from them, and be better pilots ourselves.

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Old 28th Jan 2017, 08:41   #161 (permalink)
 
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I find it difficult to believe that humidity had any part to play in the performance of the aircraft (carb ice and airframe/induction icing notwithstanding).

The difference in density between dry and saturated air is negligible at the temperatures pertaining for this accident. A measurable difference first occurs at about 25C. At 50C the difference in density is about 5%. At 65C it is about 10%.
Indeed, the effect of humidity is almost insignificant compared to the effect of temperature and pressure. From the Heathrow METARs, one would expect a temperature of about 8 or 9 degC, and a QNH around 1020 hPa. That leads me to believe that the density altitude at Chalgrove, 240 ft amsl, was more than 500 ft below sea level on the day.
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Old 30th Jan 2017, 13:58   #162 (permalink)


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Dave Norris 1952 – 2017

As many will be aware by now, long time member of the VAC Dave Norris was tragically killed in a flying accident in Oxfordshire on 15 January 2017

There will be a Memorial Service for Dave in his home village at St Faith Church, St Faith's Close, Newton Longville, Buckinghamshire, MK17 0AL at 13:00 on 10th February which VAC members may attend.

The service will be followed later in the afternoon by a private cremation.

To extend our condolences to his wife and family for their loss, the Vintage Aircraft Club will be sending a floral tribute on behalf of the Membership.

Peter Wright (VAC Chairman
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Old 29th Sep 2017, 13:13   #163 (permalink)
 
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Accident report to be published in the AAIB October bulletin.
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Old 12th Oct 2017, 10:59   #164 (permalink)
 
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CFIT following VFR into IMC
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Old 12th Oct 2017, 11:04   #165 (permalink)
 
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Reasons for 'Getthereitis' not explored by the AAIB but why was a commercial organisation using a PPL to position a crew or have I got it wrong and it was just 3 mates who were going to split the costs between them?
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Old 12th Oct 2017, 16:42   #166 (permalink)
 
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You can read the AAIB report here


"
G-ATMT was operating below 1,000 ft in an area where the Minimum Safe Altitude (MSA1) was 2,200 ft. It was likely that the aircraft flew in Instrument Meteorological Conditions (IMC2) below MSA for at least 1 minute 45 seconds before flying into some trees standing
on a ridge of high ground. The aircraft was extensively damaged and the pilot, the only person on board, was fatally injured."


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Old 12th Oct 2017, 19:29   #167 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by runway30 View Post
Reasons for 'Getthereitis' not explored by the AAIB but why was a commercial organisation using a PPL to position a crew or have I got it wrong and it was just 3 mates who were going to split the costs between them?
In a previous post I had enquired whether the pilot was of the Norris family of Bournemouth Flying Club and Anglo American Airmotive Ltd. The latter was taken over by Meridian. It was I think confirmed that he was. This being the case I had thought that Dave held a professional licence at some time during his long career in aviation. There may well have been good reasons why he had swapped it for a PPL. All that matters is that he was a competent and highly experienced aviator. It was just not his day and he paid the ultimate price for his bad day. Only those who have had such a day and are still with us know what it means, to have a bad day.
By the way why should AAIB be concerned about cost sharing for a flight that did not take place.
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Old 12th Oct 2017, 22:28   #168 (permalink)
 
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Interesting to note that the pilot had not done a lot of flying in the last 28/90 days:-

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Last 90 days - 3 hours
Last 28 days - 0 hours
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Old 13th Oct 2017, 20:57   #169 (permalink)
 
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Stokenchurch tower by the M40

Weather unsuitable for VFR. Local airfields clear of cloud, but fog has a habit of leaning against this particular slope. All too easy to get lost and disoriented.
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Old 14th Oct 2017, 16:35   #170 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by fireflybob View Post
Interesting to note that the pilot had not done a lot of flying in the last 28/90 days:-
Quote:
Last 90 days - 3 hours
Last 28 days - 0 hours
It'd be interesting to see what he'd logged in the previous nine months. For a pilot with considerable experience and knowledge it's surprising that he wasn't able to assess his currency as being low, and too low perhaps for the conditions.
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Old 14th Oct 2017, 17:37   #171 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Chronus View Post
All that matters is that he was a competent and highly experienced aviator. It was just not his day and he paid the ultimate price for his bad day. Only those who have had such a day and are still with us know what it means, to have a bad day.
Mmmmmmmmmmm!

Totally unavoidable accident as CFIT so often is.

He could have prevented this "not being his day".
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Old 14th Oct 2017, 19:08   #172 (permalink)
 
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Mmmmmmmmmmm!

Totally unavoidable accident as CFIT so often is.

He could have prevented this "not being his day".
How, by staying in bed ?

Hindsight is well known to us all.
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Old 14th Oct 2017, 19:08   #173 (permalink)
 
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I was very sad to read here that it was Dave Norris who died in this accident. The Norris brothers played a key role in getting me back into the air after a 20 year break. If it wasn't for them I probably wouldn't have enjoyed another 20 years of flying and still counting.
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Old 15th Oct 2017, 11:06   #174 (permalink)
 
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How, by staying in bed ?

Hindsight is well known to us all.
Steady on. Whilst Council Van may have 'meandered' a little with his wording, I believe his intent was that David Norris, an experienced pilot, qualified in Instrument flying, already having pushed his luck in going below MSA in poor weather, should have made an earlier decision to climb to safety.

That isn't hindsight, that is applying the knowledge and requirements that make up the responsibilities of holding an Instrument Rating. The accident is a tragedy, of course, but there seems nothing to suggest that it should have been inevitable. For a pilot with that experience and those qualifications, this was sadly, but easily, avoidable.
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Old 15th Oct 2017, 12:32   #175 (permalink)
 
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It'd be interesting to see what he'd logged in the previous nine months. For a pilot with considerable experience and knowledge it's surprising that he wasn't able to assess his currency as being low, and too low perhaps for the conditions.
"The pilot’s flying logbook contained no entries after 25 February 2016. The owner of the aircraft recalled that the pilot flew on 8 and 29 November 2016 for a combined total of 2 hours 35 minutes."

Last edited by runway30; 15th Oct 2017 at 13:37.
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Old 15th Oct 2017, 12:42   #176 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Stuart Sutcliffe View Post
Steady on. Whilst Council Van may have 'meandered' a little with his wording, I believe his intent was that David Norris, an experienced pilot, qualified in Instrument flying, already having pushed his luck in going below MSA in poor weather, should have made an earlier decision to climb to safety.

That isn't hindsight, that is applying the knowledge and requirements that make up the responsibilities of holding an Instrument Rating. The accident is a tragedy, of course, but there seems nothing to suggest that it should have been inevitable. For a pilot with that experience and those qualifications, this was sadly, but easily, avoidable.
"The study argued that rules may be easy to apply when circumstances are clear-cut but more difficult to apply in marginal and uncertain circumstances where they might have the most benefit. In summarising their study, the authors commented:
‘The results suggest ... high uncertainty and dynamism constrain rule-based response, leading to rules becoming vulnerable, fragile or failing completely.’"

Last edited by runway30; 15th Oct 2017 at 13:38.
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Old 15th Oct 2017, 20:07   #177 (permalink)
 
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The thing I find really strange about this tragic accident is the aircraft’s track (Figure 1 in the report). The pilot tracked roughly south and ended up significantly east of Chalgrove and then for unknown reasons, turned left and not right.

The report mentions that there was a GPS on board and the Nav radio was tuned to the Daventry VOR. Turweston is very close to the radial that would allow a direct track to Chalgrove. It seems very odd that apparently neither of the available navigation devices was used.
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Old 18th Oct 2017, 17:25   #178 (permalink)
 
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The thing I find really strange about this tragic accident is the aircraft’s track...
I42, exactly, and it seems strange to me that there is no discussion of the navigation errors in the AAIB report. There are plenty of words about not maintaining VMC etc, but not why he found himself where he did. As you say there was ample nav capability on board. Was there some Track-up/North-up confusion? If there was any investigation into how he normally used the aids on board, there is no sign of it, and if there wasn't, why not?
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Old 18th Oct 2017, 19:20   #179 (permalink)
 
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CFIT accidents are mainly resultant from loss of SA.

I42`s comments about the track the aircraft took are curious. These can only lead us to speculation as to the reasons. The left turn could well have been intended to gain VMC and sight of the ground and position the aircraft at some instrument pre- computed fix for a visual straight- in finals approach.
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Old 19th Oct 2017, 21:26   #180 (permalink)
 
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How, by staying in bed ?

Hindsight is well known to us all.
No by climbing to MSA and diverting into Luton or another airport of his choice, the easy and safest option.

Obviously he was a very experienced pilot who perhaps pushed his luck on this occasion. Had he got away with it in marginal conditions before I wonder? For an IR holder this was totally avoidable as it appears the aircraft was fully serviceable. In conditions like that it would be appropriate to go expecting to have to climb above MSA. Plan for the worst, hope for the best.

A tragic accident, but avoidable.
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