Light Aircraft Crash in Oxfordshire

[Chronus]

Originally Posted by Tagron

From another forum, the purpose of the flight was to collect two pilots from Chalgrove, deliver them to Gamston whence they would ferry the Martin Baker KingAir back to its base at Chalgrove, the PA30 to return direct to Turweston.

Sounds much a like a typical case of trying to avoid the inconvenience and time consuming job of shunting cars all over the place.
I would find it very hard, at this stage at least, to think the accident was due to any shortcomings on the part of the pilot. Yes, whether may have been a contributing factor, but given that the PA30 is almost of vintage years, I rather think that some sort of mechanical failure is more likely to have been the cause. Some press reports have it that a witness heard the aircraft low in the overhead with some sort of rough running engine noise.

[bellend]

friend of mine used to fly an old PA30 when he was doing his MEP and he said it was barely capable of level flight on a V1 cut let alone climbing out, dont know how true this was as i never had the chance to fly one but he was my PPL FI whos now on commercial jets so credible to me, I used to drool over the commanche before getting into the warrior until he told me to stay away from it!!

Makes me think the mechanical failure aspect must be a highly plausible factor before pilot error given the ac was heard overhead and in trouble (if that can be believed). The wx on the day was poor approaching the ridge, infact most days over the past month the ridge has been hiding within a wall of crud, I was up there on the morning of the accident and the cloud base started literally half way up Kingston Hill, the ridge and chicken shit alley (M40 cutting) was completely shrouded. Irrespective, anyone familiar with the local area knows its there so I really cant accept this was simply CFIT.

I walk the dogs regularly up there on the ridge as its such a beautiful place , had a look for the accident site last Sunday to get an idea of the ac track/impact but no obvious signs, there seemed to be quite a few people looking also, sad macabre way of life these days.

Does anyone know exactly where he came down?

will await the AAIB report, condolences to the family and friends of the pilot

[S-Works]

All of the PA30 I have flown have had marginal performance on one engine as is common in most light twins. I did an LPC on a guy once in one and on the EFATO it really was a case of the second engine just there to take us to the scene of the crash.

[Flying Palm Tree]

I don't recall any problems with the PA30 on one engine that a boot full of rudder wouldn't compensate for and I spent most training sorties under instruction flying on one engine. The only problem I ever had is when I once shut down the wrong engine in a turn.

[runway30]

I once had to reject take off in a PA34. They asked if I'd mind flying it back on one engine...................

[fireflybob]

I instructed on PA39s completing about 500 hours of training including many flying asymmetric and there was never a problem on one engine although, as is typical with many light twins of this ilk, the rate/angle of climb wasn't too sparkling.

I realise the PA30 may well be a different breed (I did a few hours on them also) but as far as I can recollect the only significant difference was that the props on the PA39 were "counter revolution" hence there was no critical engine which on the PA30 there is.

That said, from the evidence we have so far, it would seem that if this was an engine failure it happened in the cruise rather than just after take off. Assuming the engine failure was handled correctly and the prop feathered this would allow some time to declare an emergency etc.

[runway30]

Fireflybob, would you not turn towards your destination, away from the high ground in those circumstances?

[fireflybob]

Fireflybob, would you not turn towards your destination, away from the high ground in those circumstances?

We don't know all the circumstances, whether he was attempting to maintain VFR or had previously been flying IMC/IFR at a higher level. This is pure speculation but throw in an engine failure (and real ones are never like the ones we practice - e.g. it could have been a partial failure) and even the most proficient pilot can become overloaded.

If you had a control issue then maybe you can't turn?

As has been said before we'll have to see what the AIB come up with.

[bookworm]

All of the PA30 I have flown have had marginal performance on one engine as is common in most light twins. I did an LPC on a guy once in one and on the EFATO it really was a case of the second engine just there to take us to the scene of the crash.

FWIW, the POH OEI sea level climb rate of the 3725 lb PA30 (with tip tanks) is just 170 fpm at MTOW. However, if it is correct that the intention was to pick up two pilots and depart, then it's likely that the operating weight was (at least) 300 lb less, and one would expect a OEI sea level climb rate of 300 to 350 fpm.

[foxmoth]

But the POH figures will be for a new aircraft!

[JW411]

bookworm:

Are those figures from the POH Net or Gross?

[bookworm]

They are unfactored. Our 51 year old PA30 manages to achieve them, though.

[A le Ron]

Originally Posted by bookworm

They are unfactored. Our 51 year old PA30 manages to achieve them, though.

Ditto my PA 39

[m.Berger]

Foggy day, so thin air giving reduced power and roc. Plausible, especially with an elderly aircraft.

[piperboy84]

Foggy day, so thin air giving reduced power and roc

Does fog make for thin air, I never knew that, I would have thought the opposite, and my Lycoming seems to run better with a bit moisture in the air. Every days a school day.

[Council Van]

Foggy days in the UK, is that not associated with high pressure and low temp?

I would have thought that would lead to a decrease in density altitude as the effect of moisture is negligible.

When we are calculating take off performance on the shiney jet we do not input any information about the humidity, obviously Boeing do not consider the effect on performance to be worth worrying about.


Edited, I had been going to write an INCREASE IN DENSITY and then became distracted, thanks to thud105 below for pointing out my error.

[Thud105]

Surely high pressure and low temperature causes a REDUCTION in Density Altitude?

[wsmempson]

"Foggy day, so thin air"

LOL Too funny for words.

[Sir Niall Dementia]

Originally Posted by wsmempson

"Foggy day, so thin air"

LOL Too funny for words.

Bit like you should never fly at night because there's no lift in black air!

SND

[3wheels]

Originally Posted by wsmempson

"Foggy day, so thin air"

LOL Too funny for words.

Certainly would be if this wasn't such a tragic thread.
Probably just another speculator ...