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Light Aircraft crash at Blackbushe.

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Light Aircraft crash at Blackbushe.

Old 1st Aug 2015, 08:19
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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From aerial photo, it's clear to see there's no heavy braking or skid marks on the last 100m before the car park, even with anti skid you'd expect some lock ups.

Land long, attempt to get airborne again and just run out of time, space and speed... Another sad day for biz jets and the families unfortunately
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Old 1st Aug 2015, 08:25
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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"Groundspeed over the threshold was 149 kts"

Even for a flapless that's fast! Vat for the size of aircraft fully configured must be around 110-115 IAS .. Unless there was a 30knt tail wind and that data is correct it's no surprise it didn't stop...
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Old 1st Aug 2015, 08:28
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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Have the crews names been released yet?
I think it's unlikely to be a SP operation. The Saudis usually go for a cast of thousands.
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Old 1st Aug 2015, 08:30
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I'm not sure why flying this aircraft type privately, you wouldn't still apply 1.43, seems like good practice to me, taking into account the lack of overrun at civil fields as opposed to military fields and not to apply 1.43 might be perceived by lawyers to be a lack of duty of care.

I was not suggesting this was an overrun, its just there wasn't enough distance to land, based on the approach, and clearly too late to make a safe go around.
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Old 1st Aug 2015, 08:31
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Dave R - thanks.

Vref at MLW is 118kts (I haven't done any DA adjustments) although I suspect Vref in this particular scenario would be nearer to 110kts.

athonite - 1059m is easily enough if you fly using book figures. Adding the industry standard AOC/public transport safety factor of 0.6 only just puts you out of spec (not that I'm condoning such action).

littco, I'm not assuming it "landed on the numbers", I'm assuming it (should have) crossed the numbers at 50ft at Vref. You may as well throw the whole book away if you don't fly by the prescribed performance criteria and bung on 30kts.

PS. The figures I've used do assume a serviceable aircraft.

Last edited by Cows getting bigger; 1st Aug 2015 at 17:00.
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Old 1st Aug 2015, 08:41
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High, hot, and an unstable approach followed by a go-around far too late. What a tragic waste.
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Old 1st Aug 2015, 08:49
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I've no experience of the type, but I'm thinking that, hot & high on final, the pilot throttled right back to try to make the landing, and by the time he realised it wasn't going to work, the engines had run down & couldn't spool up fast enough to make the go around.
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Old 1st Aug 2015, 09:11
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I once spent my time flying VIPs around.

When your principle is a wannabe pilot it is sometimes very difficult to persuade him that it is not an appropriate time for him to take the controls.

......Think Prince Charles - BAe146 overrun - Islay - 1994
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Old 1st Aug 2015, 09:32
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The KSA GACA generally follows the FAA FARs.... No factor for Part 91 private ops.... Air Carrier ops require to be able to land to a full stop using 60% of LDA (Length from 50')....but his was most likely a Part 91 flight...
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Old 1st Aug 2015, 09:55
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I have seen this aircraft numerous times at Blackbushe sometimes it has seemed to be flown single pilot. In fact on at least one occasion I have seen it land and park up and only one person get off.

As to not using Farnborough therte are lot of Saudis with 'summer houses' in this area, Windlesham, Ascot, etc and maybe they feel there less fuss using Blackbushe where they can arrange for customs to meet the flight-pop the bags in waiting limo and off home in about 5 minutes

What is very noticeable with jet ops there is that they are very low-properly so-over the fence at the eastern end compared to true light aircraft and the numerous King Airs that seem to like the 'bushe. But although the Phenom isnt really a light aircraft there are some much bigger biz jets that are frequent users such as the larger members of the Citation family and even Daussault tri /twin jets which dwarf the Phenom . Its even had a BAe 146 and a DC 6 in in relatively recent years.

Blink with their Citation Mustangs must feel comfortable about it as they have just bought the airfield from the car auction company and they have several operations a day in and out.
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Old 1st Aug 2015, 10:56
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Maybe the new owners will apply for GNSS (LPV) approaches.... Presumably if there had been an LPV approach it would have been a coupled approach which would have required much better speed control
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Old 1st Aug 2015, 11:26
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"Aviation enthusiast Geoff Pierce took this photograph of the air craft moments before it crashed"

Bin Laden family on Blackbushe Airport crash plane - BBC News
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Old 1st Aug 2015, 11:40
  #53 (permalink)  
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For the benefit of anyone who hasn't worked it out, the map on which Dave's plot is drawn has S at the top, N at the bottom
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Old 1st Aug 2015, 12:03
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As you may gather from my name, my heart goes out to people landing quickly on short runways. He should have gone round again. (There is plenty of greenery on the undershoot - he could have skimmed over the numbers a bit on the low side.

But it is the column of black smoke that gets me. He won't have had that much fuel on board and the burning tyres, seats and so on of those cars won't make that much smoke. I wonder if they were carrying cargo. A few hundred litres of elegant Italian paint would help to explain.
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Old 1st Aug 2015, 12:33
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approximately 20 vehicles all cooking off together - more than enough with the plane material to make all that smoke. You only have to look at the pics of half a dozen tyres at Calais to see the by-products of pyrolysis.
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Old 1st Aug 2015, 14:19
  #56 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Heli-phile
That climb at the base leg could be trying to bleed back the speed or might be a correction for altimeter mis-setting.
Having rotated Dave's map and gone and had a good look in terrain view, there is a small ridge there, S of the A30, along to Minley Manor, Gibraltar Barracks etc. where, with light winds in the SW quadrant, I would expect there to be lift, and maybe even some significant thermic activity if it detached at the right time. Lots of dark grey surfaces, in the middle of lots of greenery, on local high ground, on a thermic day. This might be a contributory factor in the, presumably unintended, 500ft height gain on base leg, which is just downwind of where you'd expect that lift to trigger.

Last edited by fyrefli; 2nd Aug 2015 at 13:02. Reason: Edit: "be a contributory factor in" used to say "explain", which is too strong and controversial
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Old 1st Aug 2015, 15:05
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Ah, that famous "long" Blackbushe runway

Looks like the Grauniad is seeking to wrench away the crown for mainstream-media aviation reporting from the Daily Mail:-

Questions raised over why state-of-the-art jet carrying three relatives of Osama Bin Laden came down at end of long runway at Blackbushe airport

Questions have been raised over the cause of Friday’s plane crash in which three members of the Bin Laden family were killed, given the aircraft had used the runway, which is fitted with hi-tech safety features, regularly in recent months.

The Saudi-registered Embraer Phenom 300 jet was attempting to land at Blackbushe airport on the Hampshire/ Surrey border when it crashed on to dozens of vehicles parked at a car auction site close to the runway.

The £7m state-of-the-art plane, equipped with fly-by-wire electronic system that is supposed to make it easy to control, was a regular visitor to the airport, according to pilots who use Blackbushe.

It was attempting a landing in near-perfect conditions on a runway that was fitted with Precision Approach Pathway Indicators (Papis).

The four indicators, which can be seen from more than half a mile away [!], all flash [!!] white if the pilot is coming in too high and red if too low. “It doesn’t make sense to me as an ordinary pilot why something that advanced and easy to fly would bury itself in the auction ground at the end of such a long runway,” said Simon Moores, a flight instructor and pilot who has flown from Blackbushe many times.

Sigh.


Bin Laden plane crash: aircraft went down in near-perfect conditions | UK news | The Guardian
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Old 1st Aug 2015, 16:19
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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Eye witnesses (pilots) have confirmed they saw the aeroplane touch down late and fast off a too high approach and try to stop when there was insufficient room to do so, with smoke pouring from the wheels, impacted the earth bank at the end of the runway with a crump, and was flung up by the impact and fell into the car park.

BBC R4 has just now said it touched down late, overshot the runway, climbed away, and stalled into the car park.

Good old BBC, eh.
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Old 1st Aug 2015, 16:47
  #59 (permalink)  
 
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Phenom's published perfs

Am not a phenom jockey , but if my memory serves me well , the published landing distances are 1.67 factored . Any phenom pilot to comment about that ?

Before shooting at me , see that post as a question, rather than an assertion
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Old 1st Aug 2015, 18:34
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Again if you look at the aerial photos there's no marks on the runway to indicate heavy braking etc.. Landing long, engines spooled down, flaps land, initial heavy braking then attempting a go-around/balked landing, be very easy to pitch up too quickly, engines not spooled , flaps in transition and stall..made even more aggressive by the short runway, car park etc in front...

If the 150kts vref is correct then flaring, ground effect are going to make that thing float!
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