Iberia to Lose 4500 jobs - 25 airframes
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By the way, it's "your cage" not "you're cage" one denotes possession the other says that I am a cage.
Poor Taz Devil, a fellow foreigner. All he posted was:
It seems that a time has arrived for our beloved british coworkers to begin thinking in what they may cope in the near future.
When someone comes onto an English language based website to spit bitterness and rubbish about the company that provides my living I will be as rude back
Last edited by Watersidewonker; 29th Jan 2013 at 18:31.
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Funny how some English speakers get away from the target, based only on arrogance and self pride, leaving aside the fundamental question.
What happens today in Iberia should give a step to some people to think in their own future, rather than trying to ridicule the messenger of an idea.
In fact your arousal has not been motivated by my message but for your own thoughts and self-translation. You are the bitter, selfish, over-proud guy, that pretends to be the holder of your own truth.
Tks www, my intent wasn't to elicit that kind of reaction.
I hope this time you may forgive the fact English is not my first language...
What happens today in Iberia should give a step to some people to think in their own future, rather than trying to ridicule the messenger of an idea.
In fact your arousal has not been motivated by my message but for your own thoughts and self-translation. You are the bitter, selfish, over-proud guy, that pretends to be the holder of your own truth.
Tks www, my intent wasn't to elicit that kind of reaction.
I hope this time you may forgive the fact English is not my first language...
Last edited by taz.devil; 29th Jan 2013 at 19:26.
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So sorry Sir JT, upholder of the ' based website'. English isn't my mother tongue - can I still post?
Also, now you have been taught something we shall see whether it sinks in, or is even acknowledged. As the fact that the majority of the VCCs were not pilots but other workers from within BA, many of whom were members of UNITE, although having been pointed out many times, remains unacknowledged and obviously has not sunk in, I have my doubts as to whether you will take in board a simple concept in English.
By the way, to be a Sir, one has to have been knighted. I know our quaint English traditions are hard to get a grip of but do try.
Taz.devil, I do not presume to know your thoughts or motivations, and as you do not know me there is no way that you can pretend to know mine.
Last edited by Juan Tugoh; 29th Jan 2013 at 21:16.
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By the way, to be a Sir, one has to have been knighted. I know our quaint English traditions are hard to get a grip of but do try.
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So sorry old chap, I was under the impression that's how you addressed your English teacher at a private school.
Nice to see you nicely balanced with chips on both shoulders.
(p.s. before the drivel I was comprehensive through and through, now with 2 degrees.)
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I wouldn't know how one addresses a teacher in a private school. I suspect that each school is different; many are very old and have their own individual style and tradition. One simply cannot make such broad generalisations such as all private (although in England we call them Public) schools act in a certain manner.
Your obvious lack of knowledge on such simple aspects of English life and your new claim to be using as a second language explains a great deal about the rather large errors you make in your arguments.
You still fail to acknowledge the fact that the majority of VCCs came from the ground staff at BA, most of whom were members of UNITE, the parent union of BASSA. By now, as this has been pointed out so many times by so many people, can only be ascribed to a wilful lack of ability to accept an uncomfortable truth.
Your obvious lack of knowledge on such simple aspects of English life and your new claim to be using as a second language explains a great deal about the rather large errors you make in your arguments.
You still fail to acknowledge the fact that the majority of VCCs came from the ground staff at BA, most of whom were members of UNITE, the parent union of BASSA. By now, as this has been pointed out so many times by so many people, can only be ascribed to a wilful lack of ability to accept an uncomfortable truth.
Last edited by Juan Tugoh; 30th Jan 2013 at 10:02.
JT
I wouldn't normally interrupt a private spat between BA pilots and cabin crew but as an english chap I should point out that the use of the title "Sir" does not necessarily mean that the person referred to is knighted eg as in letters to newspapers generally begin with: " Sir,....". In similar vein if I write "Dear Sir/Madam.." then I am not assuming that the former is knighted or that the latter runs a house of ill repute.
Also, with reference to your earlier post it is take on board not take in board as you have written.
Regarding people who may wish to contribute for whom english is not a first language then perhaps you should not be discussing a foreign airline. I am not defending the views of WW but I do believe there are important issues at stake not just for Iberia crews but all european crews.
If the low cost sector expands at the expense of a traditional, former flag carrier, then it further erodes the terms and conditions for the rest of us. In that vein I fully supported the Open Skies campaign and helped pay for it with my BALPA subs. As far as the BA cabin crew dispute then I will not comment as I do not have the knowledge to do so. However, it did occur to me and some of my colleagues that the strike breaking tactics so perfected against BASSA may be use against BALPA one day.
I wouldn't normally interrupt a private spat between BA pilots and cabin crew but as an english chap I should point out that the use of the title "Sir" does not necessarily mean that the person referred to is knighted eg as in letters to newspapers generally begin with: " Sir,....". In similar vein if I write "Dear Sir/Madam.." then I am not assuming that the former is knighted or that the latter runs a house of ill repute.
Also, with reference to your earlier post it is take on board not take in board as you have written.
Regarding people who may wish to contribute for whom english is not a first language then perhaps you should not be discussing a foreign airline. I am not defending the views of WW but I do believe there are important issues at stake not just for Iberia crews but all european crews.
If the low cost sector expands at the expense of a traditional, former flag carrier, then it further erodes the terms and conditions for the rest of us. In that vein I fully supported the Open Skies campaign and helped pay for it with my BALPA subs. As far as the BA cabin crew dispute then I will not comment as I do not have the knowledge to do so. However, it did occur to me and some of my colleagues that the strike breaking tactics so perfected against BASSA may be use against BALPA one day.
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Hi BBK, thank you for your comments. The "Sir" issue is true except that it was used in a particular context. Thank you for pointing out my typo. I do try to proof read but, as in all in things, we all make errors and typing on an iPhone is fraught with the chance for error.
BBK
I guess you mean the tactic of BA management persuading a significant number of union members to break their own union's strike? That one certainly worked extremely well.
However, it did occur to me and some of my colleagues that the strike breaking tactics so perfected against BASSA may be use against BALPA one day.
Last edited by wiggy; 30th Jan 2013 at 14:57.
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management persuading
More like intimidating eg "you'll never ever be able to commute again"
More like threatening eg "don't turn up and you'll be the first to face redundancy". Many many more breaches of article 11 will be available for all to see when the great ECHR case commences next year against the UK Government.
BBK
Oh and apologies for any spelling mistakes or slip ups - my fingers probably slipped on this damn i-phone!
JT, Wiggy and WW
Purely as an observation it seems sad to me that relations between pilots and crew appears so toxic after the strike. In fact BA crew members have mentioned to me that the same applies between fellow crew members eg those that went on strike versus those that did not. Watching BA crew commuting in civvies, to avoid being identified as non strikers, brought that home to me.
I wish any group, be it pilots or cabin crew, all the best in maintaining their Ts and Cs. We are all soft targets for increasingly aggressive tactics that are justified in the name of the race to the bottom. One doesn't have to imagine what working for such a company would be like- just read the Ryanair threads!
Lastly, can I wish any IB crew who are affected the best of luck finding new employment.
Purely as an observation it seems sad to me that relations between pilots and crew appears so toxic after the strike. In fact BA crew members have mentioned to me that the same applies between fellow crew members eg those that went on strike versus those that did not. Watching BA crew commuting in civvies, to avoid being identified as non strikers, brought that home to me.
I wish any group, be it pilots or cabin crew, all the best in maintaining their Ts and Cs. We are all soft targets for increasingly aggressive tactics that are justified in the name of the race to the bottom. One doesn't have to imagine what working for such a company would be like- just read the Ryanair threads!
Lastly, can I wish any IB crew who are affected the best of luck finding new employment.
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BBK, in reality the relationship between pilots and cabin crew within BA is, on the whole very good. There is more tension between those that did, and those that didn't strike. That said, with every week that passes these tensions are lessening and the situation gets better. The die hards will still be talking about the events with some bitterness in twenty years.
There is without a doubt a constant pressure on pilots T&Cs as the LCC's increase their market share and they pursue their aggressive drive on costs.
It is sad that IB is under such pressure and that jobs are under threat but that does not mean that the BS peddled by SEPLA about BA stealing their routes etc., etc., should not be rebutted.
A final note, this is an English language website and the topic was not started by me, nor was the thread started as a swipe at IB. When a foreign language speaker comes onto such a website as PPrune and talks about IB, I think we all have the right to comment upon it.
There is without a doubt a constant pressure on pilots T&Cs as the LCC's increase their market share and they pursue their aggressive drive on costs.
It is sad that IB is under such pressure and that jobs are under threat but that does not mean that the BS peddled by SEPLA about BA stealing their routes etc., etc., should not be rebutted.
A final note, this is an English language website and the topic was not started by me, nor was the thread started as a swipe at IB. When a foreign language speaker comes onto such a website as PPrune and talks about IB, I think we all have the right to comment upon it.
Last edited by Juan Tugoh; 30th Jan 2013 at 17:33.
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Interest in negotiating
Is there a rift developing between IAG and the Iberia executive ?
The feeling in Spain among many is basically that Iberia is being taken apart to benefit BA. Theres does not appear to be much interest on IAG´s part to negotiate, see the quotes below. I dont understand this mentality of treating your employees as fodder.
Does IAG want more strikes because it appears they will get more ?
Iberia did not call SEPLA to the negotiating table with only 2 days left in the restructuring plan deadline.
Willie Walsh has issued an ultimatum to Iberia save 350 million Euros. So get more efficient cut more middle managers, cut out inefficiencies
when it happens to you next time BA pilots, rather than focusing on what happened what about the future ? lets get ahead of the curve ? will it not be time to fight the power ?!
All the best to the Iberia pilots.
As this thread does have Iberia on the title, I shall leave it in Spanish ( translate it as you like, on Google or wherever )
From the Spanish press, Preferente
¨¨Iberia no ha citado a negociar al Sepla a falta de 3 días para que concluya el plazo estipulado para abordar el plan de reestructuración de la compañía. Fuentes del sindicato de pilotos han transmitido a preferente.com su temor de que la convocatoria llegue el mismo día 31, y les deje sin margen para negociar.
“No sabemos nada”, relata una fuente del Sepla a este digital. Internamente, existe la inquietud de que se llegue al próximo jueves y la opción que presente la compañía sea la peor para los pilotos. Ante esta situación, el sindicato ha tomado diversas medidas.
Una de ellas ha sido la de escribir por carta al presidente de IAG y de Iberia, Antonio Vázquez, al consejero delegado de IAG, Willie Walsh, y al consejero delegado de Iberia, Rafael Sánchez Lozano, para pedirles una reunión para negociar y poder llegar a un acuerdo.
Al mismo tiempo, el Sepla ha manifestado que “espera además que la empresa les conteste sobre su última propuesta”. Cabe recordar que el consejo de administración decisivo para el plan de ajuste de Iberia, que incluirá un amplio ERE, está fechado para el 1 de febrero, como se decidió en el de la semana pasada.¨
Also
Iberia no ha podido desmentir a los sindicatos con los que se ha reunido este martes para seguir negociando el plan de ajuste, si la matriz IAG ha rechazado los acuerdos alcanzados en el servicio de mediación Sima el pasado 17 de diciembre, de los que parte la negociación.
En todas las mesas de negociación –Handling (servicios en tierra), Mantenimiento y Tripulantes de cabina (TCP)– los sindicatos UGT, CCOO, USO, Asetma, Sitcpla y CTA-Vuelo, firmantes de dicho acuerdo, han recibido la misma respuesta, por lo que consideran urgente que se les clarifique la situación, señalaron fuentes sindicales a Efe.
Ante "tan manifiesta mala fe en la negociación", los sindicatos, por unanimidad, han pedido la suspensión de las reuniones de las mesas técnicas y la convocatoria urgente de una reunión entre Iberia y la mesa central de las seis organizaciones sindicales. También el sindicato de pilotos Sepla, que negocia con Iberia por separado, ha pedido por carta a su consejero delegado, Rafael Sánchez Lozano, a su presidente, Antonio Vázquez, y al consejero delegado de IAG, Willie Walsh, "una reunión para negociar y llegar a un acuerdo".
El jueves 24 de enero, se reunió el consejo ordinario del IAG, holding creado tras la fusión de la aerolínea española con British Airways, en el que se revisó las discusiones en torno al plan de transformación de Iberia y acordó una nueva reunión extraordinaria el próximo 1 de febrero. En opinión de los sindicatos, a los que ha trascendido que IAG ha rechazado el acuerdo entre los representantes de los trabajadores e Iberia, Walsh, "ha despreciado a la propia dirección de Iberia, que ha perdido el control de la compañía".
Según fuentes sindicales, a falta de tres días de la fecha en torno a la cual se debe cerrar un acuerdo sobre el plan de transformación de Iberia, la situación es "complicadísima". Para los sindicatos, el rechazo por parte de IAG del acuerdo firmado en el Sima es "una cosa muy seria", ya que se trata de una institución española y recuerdan que "estamos en España y nos regimos por nuestras instituciones". Los sindicatos están convencidos de la "mala fe" de Walsh, pero aún confían en Iberia y dicen que si la dirección confirma finalmente su rechazo al acuerdo, habrá que ver si ha sido "la mala fe o han sido víctimas del consejero delegado de IAG".
Por su parte, el sindicato de pilotos Sepla ha indicado a Efe que la compañía no les ha citado a negociar el plan a falta de tres días de que expire el período de negociación. A su juicio, lo que quiere hacer Iberia es "llegar al 31 de enero y negociar la peor opción" con la representación de los pilotos, que aún esperan que la empresa les conteste sobre su última propuesta, por lo que han pedido "una reunión para negociar y llegar a un acuerdo".
The feeling in Spain among many is basically that Iberia is being taken apart to benefit BA. Theres does not appear to be much interest on IAG´s part to negotiate, see the quotes below. I dont understand this mentality of treating your employees as fodder.
Does IAG want more strikes because it appears they will get more ?
Iberia did not call SEPLA to the negotiating table with only 2 days left in the restructuring plan deadline.
Willie Walsh has issued an ultimatum to Iberia save 350 million Euros. So get more efficient cut more middle managers, cut out inefficiencies
when it happens to you next time BA pilots, rather than focusing on what happened what about the future ? lets get ahead of the curve ? will it not be time to fight the power ?!
All the best to the Iberia pilots.
As this thread does have Iberia on the title, I shall leave it in Spanish ( translate it as you like, on Google or wherever )
From the Spanish press, Preferente
¨¨Iberia no ha citado a negociar al Sepla a falta de 3 días para que concluya el plazo estipulado para abordar el plan de reestructuración de la compañía. Fuentes del sindicato de pilotos han transmitido a preferente.com su temor de que la convocatoria llegue el mismo día 31, y les deje sin margen para negociar.
“No sabemos nada”, relata una fuente del Sepla a este digital. Internamente, existe la inquietud de que se llegue al próximo jueves y la opción que presente la compañía sea la peor para los pilotos. Ante esta situación, el sindicato ha tomado diversas medidas.
Una de ellas ha sido la de escribir por carta al presidente de IAG y de Iberia, Antonio Vázquez, al consejero delegado de IAG, Willie Walsh, y al consejero delegado de Iberia, Rafael Sánchez Lozano, para pedirles una reunión para negociar y poder llegar a un acuerdo.
Al mismo tiempo, el Sepla ha manifestado que “espera además que la empresa les conteste sobre su última propuesta”. Cabe recordar que el consejo de administración decisivo para el plan de ajuste de Iberia, que incluirá un amplio ERE, está fechado para el 1 de febrero, como se decidió en el de la semana pasada.¨
Also
Iberia no ha podido desmentir a los sindicatos con los que se ha reunido este martes para seguir negociando el plan de ajuste, si la matriz IAG ha rechazado los acuerdos alcanzados en el servicio de mediación Sima el pasado 17 de diciembre, de los que parte la negociación.
En todas las mesas de negociación –Handling (servicios en tierra), Mantenimiento y Tripulantes de cabina (TCP)– los sindicatos UGT, CCOO, USO, Asetma, Sitcpla y CTA-Vuelo, firmantes de dicho acuerdo, han recibido la misma respuesta, por lo que consideran urgente que se les clarifique la situación, señalaron fuentes sindicales a Efe.
Ante "tan manifiesta mala fe en la negociación", los sindicatos, por unanimidad, han pedido la suspensión de las reuniones de las mesas técnicas y la convocatoria urgente de una reunión entre Iberia y la mesa central de las seis organizaciones sindicales. También el sindicato de pilotos Sepla, que negocia con Iberia por separado, ha pedido por carta a su consejero delegado, Rafael Sánchez Lozano, a su presidente, Antonio Vázquez, y al consejero delegado de IAG, Willie Walsh, "una reunión para negociar y llegar a un acuerdo".
El jueves 24 de enero, se reunió el consejo ordinario del IAG, holding creado tras la fusión de la aerolínea española con British Airways, en el que se revisó las discusiones en torno al plan de transformación de Iberia y acordó una nueva reunión extraordinaria el próximo 1 de febrero. En opinión de los sindicatos, a los que ha trascendido que IAG ha rechazado el acuerdo entre los representantes de los trabajadores e Iberia, Walsh, "ha despreciado a la propia dirección de Iberia, que ha perdido el control de la compañía".
Según fuentes sindicales, a falta de tres días de la fecha en torno a la cual se debe cerrar un acuerdo sobre el plan de transformación de Iberia, la situación es "complicadísima". Para los sindicatos, el rechazo por parte de IAG del acuerdo firmado en el Sima es "una cosa muy seria", ya que se trata de una institución española y recuerdan que "estamos en España y nos regimos por nuestras instituciones". Los sindicatos están convencidos de la "mala fe" de Walsh, pero aún confían en Iberia y dicen que si la dirección confirma finalmente su rechazo al acuerdo, habrá que ver si ha sido "la mala fe o han sido víctimas del consejero delegado de IAG".
Por su parte, el sindicato de pilotos Sepla ha indicado a Efe que la compañía no les ha citado a negociar el plan a falta de tres días de que expire el período de negociación. A su juicio, lo que quiere hacer Iberia es "llegar al 31 de enero y negociar la peor opción" con la representación de los pilotos, que aún esperan que la empresa les conteste sobre su última propuesta, por lo que han pedido "una reunión para negociar y llegar a un acuerdo".
Last edited by Jimmy Hoffa Rocks; 30th Jan 2013 at 17:26.
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and their pursue their aggressive drive on costs.
Their is a form of the possessive case of they used as an attributive adjective. I suggest you rephrase it to 'they pursue their aggressive drive on costs'.
Do I get a star??
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I think we can all admit when we have made a mistake - it's one of the first lessons we learn on a CRM course, ever done one of those WWW?
Still claiming that English is not your first language? I guess we can add that claim to the one that has you as a manager and a pilot and whatever else is convenient for the BS you are peddling in that particular post.
While we are talking of acknowledging mistakes WWW, when are you going to admit that most of the strike breaking VCC's came from UNITE, the parent union of your beloved BASSA?
Still claiming that English is not your first language? I guess we can add that claim to the one that has you as a manager and a pilot and whatever else is convenient for the BS you are peddling in that particular post.
While we are talking of acknowledging mistakes WWW, when are you going to admit that most of the strike breaking VCC's came from UNITE, the parent union of your beloved BASSA?
Last edited by Juan Tugoh; 30th Jan 2013 at 17:41.
Serious topic
Gentlemen, and those who really should be in bed at this hour but seem to continue to post anyway.
The pettiness might have been mildly amusing at the beginning but is now bloody boring, off topic and mindless.
There have been some good points made here but I suspect many can't be asked to trawl through the rubbish as is shown by the diminishing number of 'posters'.
Play the ball and not the man isn't that difficult-or is it.
The pettiness might have been mildly amusing at the beginning but is now bloody boring, off topic and mindless.
There have been some good points made here but I suspect many can't be asked to trawl through the rubbish as is shown by the diminishing number of 'posters'.
Play the ball and not the man isn't that difficult-or is it.
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Well said S. I'm sure he'll be off to bed soon (only joking JT).
I'm calling it a day anyway and retiring from PPRuNe. Thanks guys, I've thoroughly enjoyed the humour and banter.
I'm calling it a day anyway and retiring from PPRuNe. Thanks guys, I've thoroughly enjoyed the humour and banter.
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IAG says NO
Negotiation between SIMA Iberia and related unions and IAG came to a halt today with no chance of settlement. 3200 workers to add to the already 6 million jobless. Expect much turmoil. Our government is a lame duck and Iberia is no longer under spanish control. Shame.