Iberia to Lose 4500 jobs - 25 airframes
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Getting a bit to close to the truth am I Count? It must make you and WWW quite uncomfortable to see your imaginary world subject to scrutiny.
The world has moved on from the times when a workforce in a non-monopoly enterprise can force managements hand, no matter how united they are. BASSA found out the hard way. Lets hope SEPLA wise up sharpish. Still, it's always much easier to blame someone else. Whether it's the pilots in BASSAs case, or the nasty British in SEPLAs case, blaming others might make you feel happier but it won't change the outcome.
The world has moved on from the times when a workforce in a non-monopoly enterprise can force managements hand, no matter how united they are. BASSA found out the hard way. Lets hope SEPLA wise up sharpish. Still, it's always much easier to blame someone else. Whether it's the pilots in BASSAs case, or the nasty British in SEPLAs case, blaming others might make you feel happier but it won't change the outcome.
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Ultimately it's the investors that matter as they are ones who own the company. Even when BA was getting bad publicity in the UK, the investors remained strongly behind Walsh and his plan to drag certain parts of BA into the modern age. As long as he delivers the savings the investors will continue to back him. In managing a difficult situation SEPLAs reps appear to have allowed themselves to indulge in a few flights of fantasy, namely attacking BA and publishing lies about them. Lets hope that error doesn't come back to haunt them.
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Hand, we're you actually on this planet when the dispute was underway?
The press were never against BA, quite the opposite. Historically they've always been anti union and our dispute proved no different.
WW had set the press, general public, government and other sections within BA against us by spinning lies on what the average cc member earns. I remember a figure of £60,000 picked from thin air. Not to mention the wall of hate erected in Waterside.
BBC News - BA in graffiti wall 'bullying' row
Did you add your comment Hand??
The press were never against BA, quite the opposite. Historically they've always been anti union and our dispute proved no different.
WW had set the press, general public, government and other sections within BA against us by spinning lies on what the average cc member earns. I remember a figure of £60,000 picked from thin air. Not to mention the wall of hate erected in Waterside.
BBC News - BA in graffiti wall 'bullying' row
Did you add your comment Hand??
Last edited by Watersidewonker; 10th Jan 2013 at 13:37.
The press were never against BA, quite the opposite. Historically they've always been anti union and our dispute proved no different.
WW had set the press, general public, government and other sections within BA against us by spinning lies on what the average cc member earns.
WW had set the press, general public, government and other sections within BA against us by spinning lies on what the average cc member earns.
BA strikes: What's turned the kindly cabin crew into suicidal strikers? | Mail Online
Frankly revisiting the dispute is a waste of time and a waste of this thread, but certainly if I worked for IB and/or was a SEPLA member I wouldn't be turning to current or former BASSA reps for advice on how to win a campaign against Willie Walsh.
Last edited by wiggy; 10th Jan 2013 at 13:43.
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Aporrizaje
What is happening is under a whole new set of circumstances both financial and corporate. Investors are watching the outcome of the IAG actions at Iberia like hawks. Many investment agencies have a hold on IAG shares with a future investment tag on them pending the outcome of rationalisation at IB.
This has nothing to do with either workforce, neither does it have anything to do with 'who has what'. IAG is pegged as a future investment as BA has been rationalised with a strong, cohesive and viable forward business plan. The investors want to see the same for IB. Once the two are 'on track' then IAG will be a strong investment vehicle.
This is what the board and the institutional investors are looking at.....the share price graph. Sadly you, I and all the other employees will merely be pawns in this big investment game.
What Count and Wonker are driveling has nothing whatsoever to do with your dispute. It will be you and your colleagues who fight this out. Advice from two (one?) former member(s) of a Union that failed utterley in its bid to strong arm the company is advice worth leaving well alone.
The only thing amusing in this thread is the ever new and inventive ways that those two (one?) try to spin a victory out of what was BA merely taking toys away and waiting for the tantums to stop. When BASSA got the toys back they claimed a victory. They will try an heap blame, scorn and reprisals on everyone else they think had a hand in their demise. The easiest way to salve your own conscience is to blame someone else. However they spin it BASSA made its own bed. No-one else in the company, including many departments staffed by Unite members, agreed with their position. But, according to BASSA, they were right, we were wrong. Thus has it always been so for BASSA. They lost everything else the company demanded of them and by allowing the inception of mixed fleet they gifted BA with a staff costs vehicle that provided huge savings into the future. The fact that MF can join Unite is totally irrelevant, the position of 'strongarm' that BASSA once had and their ability to influence the daily running of the airline at BA is now a distant, fading memory.
What is happening is under a whole new set of circumstances both financial and corporate. Investors are watching the outcome of the IAG actions at Iberia like hawks. Many investment agencies have a hold on IAG shares with a future investment tag on them pending the outcome of rationalisation at IB.
This has nothing to do with either workforce, neither does it have anything to do with 'who has what'. IAG is pegged as a future investment as BA has been rationalised with a strong, cohesive and viable forward business plan. The investors want to see the same for IB. Once the two are 'on track' then IAG will be a strong investment vehicle.
This is what the board and the institutional investors are looking at.....the share price graph. Sadly you, I and all the other employees will merely be pawns in this big investment game.
What Count and Wonker are driveling has nothing whatsoever to do with your dispute. It will be you and your colleagues who fight this out. Advice from two (one?) former member(s) of a Union that failed utterley in its bid to strong arm the company is advice worth leaving well alone.
The only thing amusing in this thread is the ever new and inventive ways that those two (one?) try to spin a victory out of what was BA merely taking toys away and waiting for the tantums to stop. When BASSA got the toys back they claimed a victory. They will try an heap blame, scorn and reprisals on everyone else they think had a hand in their demise. The easiest way to salve your own conscience is to blame someone else. However they spin it BASSA made its own bed. No-one else in the company, including many departments staffed by Unite members, agreed with their position. But, according to BASSA, they were right, we were wrong. Thus has it always been so for BASSA. They lost everything else the company demanded of them and by allowing the inception of mixed fleet they gifted BA with a staff costs vehicle that provided huge savings into the future. The fact that MF can join Unite is totally irrelevant, the position of 'strongarm' that BASSA once had and their ability to influence the daily running of the airline at BA is now a distant, fading memory.
Last edited by Wirbelsturm; 10th Jan 2013 at 14:04.
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Aporrizaje:
In BA we have had to recognise the difference between 'low cost'. and 'cost low' airlines. They are not the same thing.
The wall of hate was mentioned, and I have to say I thought that was absolutely disgraceful. Indeed I disagreed with much that went on during that bitter dispute.
However, for the vast majority of decent cabin crew, BASSA served them dreadfully!
There ARE lessons in that dispute, should SEPLA wish to look. But at the end of the day, Iberia's pilots/personnel will need to recognise the moment when they are offered the best they can get, otherwise I honestly believe it will be carnage.
ALL investors need to see a return on their money. Willie has a track record of doing that. They will support him. For some time to come, at least.
if they want IB to be a low-cost airline
The wall of hate was mentioned, and I have to say I thought that was absolutely disgraceful. Indeed I disagreed with much that went on during that bitter dispute.
However, for the vast majority of decent cabin crew, BASSA served them dreadfully!
There ARE lessons in that dispute, should SEPLA wish to look. But at the end of the day, Iberia's pilots/personnel will need to recognise the moment when they are offered the best they can get, otherwise I honestly believe it will be carnage.
ALL investors need to see a return on their money. Willie has a track record of doing that. They will support him. For some time to come, at least.
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Just to correct one point, Mixed Fleet was never intended be a non-unionised workforce per se, but a separate bargaining unit which is what it is under Unite. Put another way, you could ask why it has taken two years for Unite to gain recognition. The chances of Mixed Fleet integrating into EF/WW are next to NIL.
And BASSA's membership numbers are an irrelevance, by their own admission in their updates they have been sidelined.
Anyway, it's good that negotiations are ongoing. What is needed at these times are cool-heads, creativity and intellect not bluster and bravado.
And BASSA's membership numbers are an irrelevance, by their own admission in their updates they have been sidelined.
Anyway, it's good that negotiations are ongoing. What is needed at these times are cool-heads, creativity and intellect not bluster and bravado.
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BA had cash in the bank..in Iceland?.
Pre merger IB had 2800 million € .No pensions hole.
Pre merger IB had 2800 million € .No pensions hole.
This - in my view - is the mistake Bassa made, and continue to make.
BA showed cash reserves of £2.1 Billion this year.
10 years ago this figure was roughly double.
The pensions issue is largely irrelevant but the spanish seem unable to understand the concept. BA does not have to underwrite or pay this figure but does have to manage its contributions over a very long term to meet the ESTIMATED cost; this cost is estimated by using a very conservative audit projection.
Last edited by The Blu Riband; 10th Jan 2013 at 15:37.
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HALLELUJAH PRAISE BE THE LORD, PPRUNE AND CHOCOLATERACER - I'VE SEEN THE LIGHT!!!
For the past 3 years I've had it drummed into me that we had very little time left before going bust, when in fact we had billions at hand. We just wanted more money to enable us to snap up a few carriers, merge with Iberia, snap up Vueling and strip Iberia, threatening the IB pilots with the LOCO stick. As we now have mixfleet, the pilots have their shares and the board have massive remuneration/share options all we need is those militants in Spain to toe the line then voila!
For the past 3 years I've had it drummed into me that we had very little time left before going bust, when in fact we had billions at hand. We just wanted more money to enable us to snap up a few carriers, merge with Iberia, snap up Vueling and strip Iberia, threatening the IB pilots with the LOCO stick. As we now have mixfleet, the pilots have their shares and the board have massive remuneration/share options all we need is those militants in Spain to toe the line then voila!
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Reading through the last few posts made by the usual suspects, it is clear that these pilots really do not know or understand how the cabin crew dispute ran. Where there are gaps in how they think BASSA did this or did not, they make it up. Even though on several pages before I said that BASSA had offered one person off of the aircraft and a role of Premium Purser for a working CSD, Wirbelstrum and others still peddle their nonsense version of events, heavily warped to show themselves in the best possible light.
The truth is that BA's pilots did not have the stomach for a fight with Walsh, so soon after getting a bloody nose over OpenSkies. He had put them in their place and taught them a lesson. So they rolled over, negotiated a 'sweet heart' deal with a nod and a wink, that if there is any trouble with the cabin crew, they will step in and help Walsh out. This is exactly how their actions played out. Why else would one of their reps take such a high profile position in assisting BA to meet its ends? They were given a pot of £13m worth of share options redeemable next year, plus were paid £126 per flying hour to act as strikebreaking cabin crew.
The negotiated settlement was a victory because the cabin crew dispute was not about making cost savings, it was about destroying the cabin crew union. That is why such huge resources, the Lieden Room, using strike breakers and all manner of methods were implemented to break BASSA. Well it didn't happen. Instead of there being a quick kill, against Walsh's expectations and calculations, the dispute escalated and ran on for nearly two years. Now the apologists state that Mixed Fleet savings will be worth it, but so much damage is being made to the brand with these inexperienced crew, they have all had to go in for re-training to stem the complaints. On top of this BA have had to put one extra crewmember onboard to supervise and monitor standards.
In order for there to be a lasting settlement, the problem had to be removed. It wasn't until the more emollient Keith Willaims was appointed CEO, that an end could be brought to the dispute. That says it all really. At BA like at Iberia now, Walsh painted himself into a corner making statements like he would never give back staff travel. The problems at Iberia will also not be resolved until he goes.
The truth is that BA's pilots did not have the stomach for a fight with Walsh, so soon after getting a bloody nose over OpenSkies. He had put them in their place and taught them a lesson. So they rolled over, negotiated a 'sweet heart' deal with a nod and a wink, that if there is any trouble with the cabin crew, they will step in and help Walsh out. This is exactly how their actions played out. Why else would one of their reps take such a high profile position in assisting BA to meet its ends? They were given a pot of £13m worth of share options redeemable next year, plus were paid £126 per flying hour to act as strikebreaking cabin crew.
The negotiated settlement was a victory because the cabin crew dispute was not about making cost savings, it was about destroying the cabin crew union. That is why such huge resources, the Lieden Room, using strike breakers and all manner of methods were implemented to break BASSA. Well it didn't happen. Instead of there being a quick kill, against Walsh's expectations and calculations, the dispute escalated and ran on for nearly two years. Now the apologists state that Mixed Fleet savings will be worth it, but so much damage is being made to the brand with these inexperienced crew, they have all had to go in for re-training to stem the complaints. On top of this BA have had to put one extra crewmember onboard to supervise and monitor standards.
In order for there to be a lasting settlement, the problem had to be removed. It wasn't until the more emollient Keith Willaims was appointed CEO, that an end could be brought to the dispute. That says it all really. At BA like at Iberia now, Walsh painted himself into a corner making statements like he would never give back staff travel. The problems at Iberia will also not be resolved until he goes.
Last edited by Count Niemantznarr; 10th Jan 2013 at 17:27.
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Funny how BA's self appointed economists pontificate here about cost savings, when they are just about the world's most expensive flight crew!
As you have given the EZE route as an example of cabin crew cost savings, perhaps Choco you and your colleagues might like to save BA money by giving up some of your cosy agreements? Surely a two man flight crew can operate all the way through to MCT, rather than getting off at AUH? If you did that like other airlines do, it would halve the number of pilots required to operate that route. That would save BA around £1.25m a year alone.
Also on a number of routes such as IAH amongst many others, there is a heavy flight crew who then get a double night at the destination. Surely with BA having to pay your flight hours whilst you are sleeping in the bunks, it is a bit cheeky to insist on a double night as well?
There are a lot more examples of where BA Flight Crew can make huge savings for the company. I am an expert on the Bid Line. Now there is a sacred cow if I ever saw one!
As you have given the EZE route as an example of cabin crew cost savings, perhaps Choco you and your colleagues might like to save BA money by giving up some of your cosy agreements? Surely a two man flight crew can operate all the way through to MCT, rather than getting off at AUH? If you did that like other airlines do, it would halve the number of pilots required to operate that route. That would save BA around £1.25m a year alone.
Also on a number of routes such as IAH amongst many others, there is a heavy flight crew who then get a double night at the destination. Surely with BA having to pay your flight hours whilst you are sleeping in the bunks, it is a bit cheeky to insist on a double night as well?
There are a lot more examples of where BA Flight Crew can make huge savings for the company. I am an expert on the Bid Line. Now there is a sacred cow if I ever saw one!
Last edited by Count Niemantznarr; 10th Jan 2013 at 17:40.
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the world's most expensive flight crew!
heavy flight crew who then get a double night at the destination
I am an expert on the Bid Line
Surely a two man flight crew can operate all the way through to MCT, rather than getting off at AUH
Thought you were an expert!!
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I can't see a really long term future for IAG - its really about managed decline to a smallish, principally business class, airline
But if the Iberia situation turns really nasty it will be curtains for a lot more of their staff than 4500 - it will accelerate the decline
Remember the UK miners - if they'd stayed in their jobs in the early 80's they'd still have lost a lot of workers but spread over a decade or two - as it was the axe fell very rapidly after their strike
But if the Iberia situation turns really nasty it will be curtains for a lot more of their staff than 4500 - it will accelerate the decline
Remember the UK miners - if they'd stayed in their jobs in the early 80's they'd still have lost a lot of workers but spread over a decade or two - as it was the axe fell very rapidly after their strike
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when they are just about the world's most expensive flight crew!
I am an expert on the Bid Line
Surely a two man flight crew can operate all the way through to MCT, rather than getting off at AUH
Yet more spin from the self professed experts.
Keep going, I haven't had such a laugh at a thread in ages. No disrespect to the IB guys intended.
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Surely with BA having to pay your flight hours whilst you are sleeping in the bunks
What's your point?
Heavy crew members do the same as the rest of the flight crew, you are all 'a crew'. Very occasionally flight crew will 'swap' return sectors to get longer/shorter at the destination. Wonderful flexibility at no cost to BA. Keep up the bidline expertise.
One suggestion for flight crew saving money is to double up as cabin crew. What a fantastic idea. I'd be up for that.
To add to the post above I have also noticed a distinct lack of audited figures from BASSA as requested long ago by one of their members. When did BASSA last submit audited accounts to Unite I wonder?
More smoke and mirrors to come from the usual suspects. Perhaps they can provide a link?
Last edited by Wirbelsturm; 10th Jan 2013 at 18:24.
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I am glad that the BA pilots here have repeated and emphasised the point about being creditied with flight hour pay whilst taking bunk rest. This does not occur in many other airlines, in particular the Middle East carriers.
As far as Wirblesturm's suggestion for flight crew to double up as cabin crew, how many pilot strikebreakers were sacked and disciplined during the cabin crew dispute for insulting passengers?
BA pilots post shocking, foul-mouthed rants on Facebook over cabin work after breaking strike - Mirror Online
Those of you reading these posts can see the similarity in the attitude and comments in this thread to those of the sacked and disciplined pilots. There seems to be a common streak running through most of them, if this forum is representative.
As far as Wirblesturm's suggestion for flight crew to double up as cabin crew, how many pilot strikebreakers were sacked and disciplined during the cabin crew dispute for insulting passengers?
BA pilots post shocking, foul-mouthed rants on Facebook over cabin work after breaking strike - Mirror Online
Those of you reading these posts can see the similarity in the attitude and comments in this thread to those of the sacked and disciplined pilots. There seems to be a common streak running through most of them, if this forum is representative.
Last edited by Count Niemantznarr; 10th Jan 2013 at 18:58.
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I wonder how the resident PPRUNE BA pilot forum panel ae going to interpret these figures?
the world's most expensive flight crew!
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To me that graph means absolutely nothing unless you take into account productivity. Cost per hour flown is all that matters not cost in isolation.
Seeing as so many people have asked I'm curious...
What % of VCC's were pilots?
What % of VCC's were members from other Unite branches?
Seeing as so many people have asked I'm curious...
What % of VCC's were pilots?
What % of VCC's were members from other Unite branches?