Jet2 Sector Pay?

[Bam Thwok]

" Whir DOOMED Capt Mainwaring....DOOMED !! "

Sorry to hear that your off Matey...looks like a "few" more resignations this month....All the best.

[maat]

Mmm. One of my previous companies bought a smaller company and merged seniority lists, with the inevitable demotions & fleet changes. Didn’t affect me, I was in the ‘parent’ company.

Some of the disaffected pilots started a company council, they even called themselves the BALPA CC, not that the company recognised BALPA or there was anything like 50% +1 BALPA membership at the time. At the time many of us thought the CC were a bunch of pretenders; nobody voted for them, nobody asked for them, no one thought we needed them.

Over the years as my previous company grew, the original, approachable management began to be replaced by sharp-suited yes men, who’s autocratic style was coupled to their aggressive manner. Gradually, as more and more pilots collected disciplinaries for one thing or another & other grievances of various sorts, it was the self-appointed CC that began to get involved, usually with positive results. They had of course the advice and backing of BALPA; the CC’s stated aim was to gain BALPA membership and recognition from the outset.

As this company grew, stabilised and shrunk again, the role of the CC became very important, for example it was they that secured a rostering agreement that dictated a reasonable lifestyle. Rostering up until then was all about single days off, days off down route, finishing on late duties & starting on earlies; things that don’t affect Jet2 yet, but as the company becomes more organised it surely will. It was CC that got the pay rises (Jet2: Less than inflation this year), the reasonable loss of licence insurance (Jet2: 8 weeks paid, rest unpaid until you lose the licence), the decent medical insurance (Jet2: recently changed, use the NHS first), pilots trained up as pension scheme trustee’s so that they could monitor changes in the company pension scheme (Jet2: new scheme, old one wrapped up, advantages or disadvantages not fully known yet).

And finally as the company lost money and began to shrink, it was the CC, by now with pilots BALPA 50% +1 membership and full recognition; that sorted the redundancies and demotions out. To my knowledge there were no compulsory redundancies.

It all started with a few energetic and farsighted individuals who had the foresight and energy to start a company council.

Silverhawk: Thanks for the PM, I will be in touch over the next few weeks, either by PM or phone

[Pilot Pete]

Problem yet again is the misinterpretation of what BALPA is. You don't join, sit back and wait for BALPA to fight your battles for you. You HAVE to motivate yourselves. If Emerald was that bad, why didn't the pilots demand action by threatening to strike? Simplistic I know, but if you let the dictator walk all over you and don't stand up to be counted, how can you blame an organisation that provides the backroom staff? Trouble is the 'dictator' knew what he could get away with. Anyone who pays (was it) £12k for an HS748 rating is not going to go out on strike due to lousy terms and conditions, at least not for some time.

It's the same at JET2. So many guys are either in it for themselves having had a career elsewhere or starting out with a huge debt and no experience, that they can dictate lousy terms and conditions for some time. If you stand up and be counted then you could improve them.

Boeingman

if still unhappy they can leave and join a "career airline". Last time I looked nobody was forcing anyone to stay at Jet2 if they are unhappy.

I quite agree. I wasn't including leaving as an option! True though, there will be those who decide enough is enough and leave for pastures new. This can be a big factor if used collectively to bargain for better terms and conditions. I hear Easy and Ryanair are losing guys at quite a pace, as quickly as they bring in new hires!

Trouble is, a certain amount of turnover appeals to companies these days as someone who stays years and years tends to cost more money, especially in a career airline with payscales etc. Evaluate training costs and it can become more desirable to have a turnover rather than retain in the short termism that most businesses seem to follow these days. Once the low cost airlines become 'mature' it will happen there too, this is one reason why MoL despises unions because he knows it will cost him long term.

I think maat has given a very good example that demonstrates that BALPA is not the driver, it is the 'informed passenger' offering support services. So why do those with a bad experience keep blaming 'BALPA'? I just don't get it. What is so difficult for intelligent people to understand about the way BALPA works?

PP

Edited to add that I agree that Jet2 maybe a decent lifestyle option for many right now; not too much flying, decent rostering and friendly crewing staff all willing to help. Rest assured it won't be like that forever and many will be bleating when the lifestyle issues have been eroded and the terms and conditions aren't good.

[Captain Mainwaring]

BALPA

Originally Posted by Pilot Pete

You don't join, sit back and wait for BALPA to fight your battles for you. You HAVE to motivate yourselves... stand up to be counted, . What is so difficult for intelligent people to understand about the way BALPA works?

We did stand and were literally counted, albeit postally. Those who voted for BALPA did directly resist Management by refusing hire cars for lengthy positioning following flight duty. Several pilots were suspended for refusing 'dangerous or illegal rosters or unserviceable aircraft. The battle was not even about pay and T&C's but flight safety. BALPA let all the efforts down by failing to deliver their part of the bargain and seek legal recognition, twice! BALPA were scared of the Dictator, was the view held by crews. That is still the view of most of my now redundant ex-colleagues. We 'appointed' three Rep's but all were suspended then sacked.
I reiterate that i am not convinced that BALPA deliver what they promise. It is always 'get the membership levels up, then we will be able to do something'. They didn't at Emerald, is the indisputable sorry fact of the matter. Can't see that they will uphold their end of the bargain at Jet2 even if you stand and are counted and everybody sticks their necks out.
Five or more years of dissappointment have coloured my view, i must admit, but all my best wishes to the next batch of volunteers to 'go over the top'.

[Pilot Pete]

Originally Posted by Captain Mainwaring

BALPA let all the efforts down by failing to deliver their part of the bargain and seek legal recognition, twice! BALPA were scared of the Dictator, was the view held by crews.

OK, I don't know the full story, but how many of the 'sacked' colleagues downed tools en masse in protest (after a ballot of course)? Sounds like the rest of the pilots were scared of the dictator.

PP

[Boeingmann]

I was very sorry to see Emerald go to the wall. There are fine pilots at that company. Indeed we have some ex-Emerald pilots here at Jet2 who have shown to be excellent operators in both seats, I would like to see more of them here at Jet2.

Emerald's problem was AJ. He simply took money out of the airline and never put any back. MOB's one task in the world was to make sure the money was there for AJ at the end of the year. Hence why MOB never took the pilot force into account.

Jet2 is part of The Dart Group which in turn is a PLC fully accountable for all of its financial dealings, including salary and dividend paid to its Directors. These are available to the public via The London Stock Exchange.

Over the past 20+years PM has built the business into what it is today. He has done this by putting huge investment back into the business. He is no AJ. Sure he can operate on a short fuse and sure he is single minded at times, but NO he is no dictator. There are not many loco airlines that have grown at the rate of Jet2 in such a short time. One of the mean reasons is the drive and energy that PM puts into the business, aside from the huge financial investment.

I have monitored PPRUNE for a number of years and only recently decided to post on it. I am sick of all the negative and false comments made by people who have no understanding of Jet2 and appear to simply want to cause trouble.

I make no apology for being pro Jet2 and specially pro PM. I am here because I want to be. Sure I want more money and better terms, but not at the cost of my job. I want these when the company can afford them.

[Captain Mainwaring]

Originally Posted by Pilot Pete

OK, I don't know the full story, but how many of the 'sacked' colleagues downed tools en masse in protest (after a ballot of course)? Sounds like the rest of the pilots were scared of the dictator.
PP

You are correct that not many 'downed tools'. The three Reps, unfortunatley, gave the Company the ammunition with which to sack them and so the actual dismissals could hardly be a rallying point. You are also correct that many said 'I'll hold your coat' to the Reps, but then never refused anything the Company imposed on them. Is this representative of many pilot populations i wonder? BALPA told us that they were the experts and we believed them and did as were asked. They did not persue recognition through the tribunal as promised. What else is there to say?

Boeingman: I hope that your post stating 'negative and false comments' is not aimed at my posts. I said that i do not want to slag-off Jet2
and stand by that. I personally like and admire PM for his success with the growth in Jet2 and for giving me employment, but I question your assessment of PM not being dictatorial. I refer to APU and Alternate Basing policies. Both of which were not thought through and the latter clearly imposed without regard to consideration of crews. Do you mean to say that PM is not involved in every aspect of Jet2 and will not have his way in any argument? Would he not resist voluntary recognition of BALPA?

[Pilot Pete]

Originally Posted by Captain Mainwaring

Is this representative of many pilot populations i wonder?

Yes it is. Apathy is rife, militancy scarce (as we are professionals), this means we tend to take much more before we 'bleat'. Problem is when this is exploited, it takes until the final straw either breaks the camel's back or it is too late.

I want these when the company can afford them.

You will never find ANY company that can afford staff payrises. Fact. It will take years and years of being told how tough the operating environment is, etc etc and the management will always have an excuse. Being the conservative bunch that pilots are, they will take this for years and years until they either are motivated enough to take action or they leave for pastures new.

Again, I wish you all well in Jet2.

PP

[Boeingmann]

Originally Posted by Captain Mainwaring

Boeingman: I hope that your post stating 'negative and false comments' is not aimed at my posts. I said that i do not want to slag-off Jet2
and stand by that. I personally like and admire PM for his success with the growth in Jet2 and for giving me employment, but I question your assessment of PM not being dictatorial. I refer to APU and Alternate Basing policies. Both of which were not thought through and the latter clearly imposed without regard to consideration of crews. Do you mean to say that PM is not involved in every aspect of Jet2 and will not have his way in any argument? Would he not resist voluntary recognition of BALPA?

My reply was not directed at your post. I was referring to earlier posts. The question of APU as you know this is at the Captain's discreation. As to the dual base I have dealt with this in earlier post. I have know situations when PM did not get his way. I dont know how PM would feel about voluntary recognition, but I guess it would not be at the top of his list.

Good luck in your new job.

[pilothouse]

Despite my reservations, I'm joining BALPA and quitting the IPA/IPF.

With tax relief it's cheaper than I thought for the first couple of years, and if there is no representation by then I won't have spent much.

I'm happy at Jet2 and certainly don't want to see a gulf between the pilots and a friendly management, but a bit of constructive consultation wouldn't go amiss.

My concern is that quite a few pilots seemed determined to leave for a top job and therefore regard the future of Jet2 as irrelevant to them. But not everyone can join the best employers. For the benefit of all of us, I urge as many as possible to join BALPA asap. Even on the bottom F/O salary, hopefully you can afford the net sub of around £11 per month?

Pilot Pete et al, it's okay, you don't need to flame me with "told you so" - but I expect you will!

[Pontious]

I suggest you refrain from knocking Silverhawk. He's straight, knowledgeable, intelligent and a bloody good mate of mine. But looking at most of the contributers on this particular thread, I don't think many of you (if any) know him but if you did, you'd soon realise that his concerns are for effective benefit of the majority of his colleagues.

Personal attacks are pointless, immature and say more about the author than the subject.

[Boeingmann]

Originally Posted by still got his clubs

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but word has it, on the financial streets of London, that Jet2 is in fianancial difficulty. PM has allegedly been sniffing around venture capitalists to try to raise more cash but has not succeeded, they simply don't believe that Jet2 can compete with the bigger, more realistic low cost carriers..

Dart Group Plc (parent company of Jet2) have just released their financial result for the year ending 31 March 2006. Profit after tax and extraordinary item (Jet2 HQ move from BOH to LBA) is £14 Million. Further fleet expansion 3 x 757-200 and 1 x 737-300. All aircraft are purchased via mortgages, NONE are leased.

Still Got His Clubs, need any help with the "sh!t" in your eyes.

[silverhawk]

So the Group results seem pretty good.

Someone explain to me then please. Why no pay rise for the aircrew at end of year 2005/6? Why reduction in private health scheme for management/captains?

As a member of staff why am I expected to boost the profits and enhance the shareholders dividends from my own pocket?

I think I'll call Angelo. Now is the time to commence the process for the Spring 2007 package. At the moment Angelo is our only means of communication.

As we all know, if you don't ask, you just won't get.

[Pilot Pete]

Originally Posted by silverhawk

So the Group results seem pretty good.
Someone explain to me then please. Why no pay rise for the aircrew at end of year 2005/6? Why reduction in private health scheme for management/captains?

It has nothing to do with what might be 'right' or 'fair', it is all about keeping costs as low as possible. A united workforce is the only way to prevent the cost cutting being at the expense of the staff.

PP

[Boeingmann]

Originally Posted by Pilot Pete

It has nothing to do with what might be 'right' or 'fair', it is all about keeping costs as low as possible.

I agree 100%. I think in earlier post Pilot Pete has made the point that the terms enjoyed at career airlines have come with maturing of the airline. Jet2 is still growing and operating in a very competitive market. It will be while before the "fat" is such that conditions at Jet2 will be equal or better than at career airlines.

In the meanwhile, we can work with the management to obtain the best conditions. As to the pay for 2005/6, there was a pay increase and an increment payment. It may not meet everyones expectation never the less there was an increase.

[Ardacre]

I agree there was a rise but it was derisory, the increment was a loyalty type payment for each year of service completed.

The pay rise in the form of sector pay was a disaster for the company and yesterday’s announcement of the net profit made by Dart adds insult to injury in my opinion.
Management can sweeten it up all they like but it does not match the cost of living rise in the UK this year.

I hope that yesterday’s profit announcement will stir some of our more dormant colleagues into action by joining the chosen representative body (BALPA) and understand that representation is required NOW to stop the rot.

[silverhawk]

Most airlines start off making a loss for the first few years, then a small profit and then being considered mature. Not the case with Jet2. It has only been in operation a couple of years as Jet2, but comes on the back of a very successful operation returning a profit every year for many years. I take my hat off to those responsible for that.

Incremental pay is already agreed and amounts to approx 1% give or take.
Sector pay was new and therefore a rise. Fairly insulting to captains though and a downright slap in the face for first officers and cabin crew.
In total a reduction in pay as compared to inflation at the same time as the group posts another annual profit.

The airline has been in existence since 1978, makes it 28 years old. Apart from me, I think you'll find most things have matured by age 28.

Boeingmann, we would love to work WITH the mangement. Expansion benefits most of us, but don't expect us to sit back while our T&Cs are eroded.

[Boeingmann]

Originally Posted by silverhawk

It has only been in operation a couple of years as Jet2, but comes on the back of a very successful operation returning a profit every year for many years. I take my hat off to those responsible for that

Finally, we have something in common.

Ardacre, would you have prefer the announcement showing a loss ???

[Catch23]

boeingmann,
I think Ardacre was expecting to see a loss in view of the pay conditions rather than such a profit figure. I'm sure he along with all at Jet2 are happy that the company contiues to profit and expand. They are just stating their case, oops just been called out, anyway you get the point.
Ta-ra.

[Ardacre]

Boeingmann wrote,
would you have prefer the announcement showing a loss ???
No I wouldn't have wanted us to make a loss in fact I am delighted with the profit the company has made.
I will restate my position so even you boeingmann can understand,
The company has made a good profit and so I believe the staff should at least be able to share in its success with a respectable pay rise, not the derisory (that means low to you boeingmann) one given by management.
The profits have again risen this year yet our T&C's have diminished, I am hoping that our collegues that are dorment ( sitting on the fence in the back ground to you boeingmann) will join BALPA and get the majority up to what we require for some form of official representation which will hopefully get our T&C's back to where they should be.