Jet2 Sector Pay?

[Pilot Pete]

Originally Posted by pilothouse

If they can't or won't, they clearly have an apathy with regards to Jet2 in which case they are obviously the wrong choice of union.

You still don't get it do you? It's not BALPA that would have the apathy, it's the PILOTS. BALPA is not some organisation like a political party that has a tour bus that canvasses for members in the various airlines. It comes from the PILOTS within said companies to motivate themselves. BALPA is the framework behind them, not the driver. It's down to the pilot workforce at JET2, that are members of BALPA, to get together and form a Company Council and do the donkey work. BALPA give the support and guidance.

Why is it that professional pilots have such a hard time with this concept? I am staggered at just how often this misrepresentation of what BALPA is and how it works appears on these message boards.

PP

[pilothouse]

Pilot Pete,

There are hardly any BALPA members to form a CC!

If those few members want BALPA to be recognised, they first need to get a rapid increase in the membership. In which case they need to get in touch with BALPA Head Office to set up a recruitment meeting of members and non-members.

While the onus is indeed on the pilots to motivate themelves, BALPA is nevertheless an organisation that has an administrative core that should be willing and able to set up and finance a local meeting. In the absence of a CC, it's not up to the individual pilot members to do this, it's the union administration in response to individual pilots' requests.

And anyway, Pete, let's have YOUR ideas for a way forward. Telling me that I've got it all wrong doesn't actually get us very far, does it? Clearly you would like a strong BALPA membership within Jet2, headed by a CC. You obviously know the system, so tell us how.

[Boeingmann]

Pilothouse. If you really want BALPA repersentation, you can call them and they will tell you how many pilots at Jet2 are currently members. I think you will find the numbers are large. Provided they add up to appx 50% or more, BALPA will commence formal discussion with the Company, provided the pilots want BALPA. As for me I have been a BALPA member for many years and would like to see them at Jet2.

[pilothouse]

Boeingmann,

In that case, as you are a BALPA member and want to see BALPA represented at Jet2, please start the ball rolling. If membership is already large, once the rest see some action I'm sure that 50% won't be a problem.

And despite my previous posts, I'll consider rejoining if they will have me.

[Boeingmann]

Piolthouse

I am in BALPA for the many benefits that are available to me through that organization. I am not a member simply becouse I want someone to represent me at pay negotiation.

I am not sure what it is you are after, but if you think simply having BALPA within Jet2 things will change to your advantage you need to think again. If you have a problem with the management speak to them.

I for one have found Jet2 management co-operative and one that listen to the work force. Good example was the question of dual base for MAN crew. How many Managing Directors do you know in this industry that would stand before its work force and apologize for getting wrong ????

[bartelby]

Boeingman

"How many Managing Directors do you know in this industry that would stand before its work force and apologize for getting wrong ????"

I guess not many but then again he seems to apologize for various balls ups once a year. Did he use his usual excuse this time? - "I have been on leave this letter was sent out by mistake." Even though he wrote it!!!

Bartelby

[Boeingmann]

Bartelby.

That was the excuse I was expecting, but no he just took it on the chin.

[snotty]

I'm still waiting for my payout from the buzz scandal.....the one weeks salary that BALPA managed to secure. Has anybody else received it? BALPA are full of s$%t and were somewhat impotent in that particular case.

[Pilot Pete]

Originally Posted by pilothouse

Pilot Pete,
There are hardly any BALPA members to form a CC!

I have no idea how many members you have in JET2.

BALPA is nevertheless an organisation that has an administrative core that should be willing and able to set up and finance a local meeting.

Hold on, you want them to pay for you to have a meeting? If there are 'so few' members why couldn't you organise a meeting down the local pub, or are you unwilling to outlay ANYTHING in the pursuit of bettering your terms and conditions? What exactly would you want BALPA to say at this meeting? Don't you think they are going to just tell you to join? All the info about membership is available to you. If you could bother to be pro-active you could find out everything yourself, you could even telephone them and I am sure some nice person at New Road would give you the time of day.

And anyway, Pete, let's have YOUR ideas for a way forward..... You obviously know the system, so tell us how.

It really isn't rocket science. The SYSTEM is simply JOIN! Once you are a member get in touch with New Road, get as many new joiner information packs as you can and SPEAK to your fellow pilots. Encourage them to join, give them the info and as soon as you have 50% membership plus 1 pilot, push BALPA for a Recognition Agreement.

I'll consider rejoining if they will have me.

What is up with you people, what exactly do you need to see from them before you take control of your own future and get all your fellow pilots to do the same? JOIN! Don't give some crap about "I'll consider joining if they'll have me". Fill in the form, put your money where your mouth is and start recruiting fellow pilots. Why don't YOU set the ball rolling instead of wanting someone else to do it, someone else to tell you how to do it and generally just wanting things to get better, but not being willing to take the plunge until others have. If your fellow pilots adopt the same attitude as that then there is no hope of you bettering your terms and conditions. Start paying, get a say and then push from the inside.

You can take a horse to water springs to mind.....

PP

[pilothouse]

Originally Posted by Pilot Pete

It really isn't rocket science. The SYSTEM is simply JOIN! Once you are a member get in touch with New Road, get as many new joiner information packs as you can and SPEAK to your fellow pilots. Encourage them to join, give them the info and as soon as you have 50% membership plus 1 pilot, push BALPA for a Recognition Agreement.

Pete,

You may have noted from the thread that I have had bad experiences with BALPA in the past. I have had no alternative but to resign - twice. They may not have me back. I need convincing.

You want me to just JOIN yet you and an unspecified number of others are already members and have offered not a single incentive. You now want ME to join and recruit others! And you would rather I organised a "pub meeting" rather than you and other Jet2 BALPA members get New Road to organise a recruitment meeting? I ask you, which is likely to more successful at achieving what we all want, a consultative voice at Jet2?

757operator (above somewhere) may be an intruder but he hit the nail right on the head. The BALPA element in Jet2 have shot the likes of Silverhawk into tiny pieces without offering a shred of an alternative.

[silverhawk]

I don't feel like I've been shot to pieces and as I've said before, I welcome all the input on here.

The T&G has proved to be a non-starter, approx 10 memberships across the company. For those of you who are proved that I was wrong, you were right.

I thought it was an avenue worth investigating. Lesson learned thanks.

[pilothouse]

Thanks Silverhawk for letting us know that. So now it's BALPA or nothing, at least that narrows it down a bit.

The remaining doubt seems to be that those already in BALPA don't actually feel inclined to get the ball rolling. I suppose it's going to be up to the present non-members as Pilot Pete suggests.


Edited for typos

[maat]

Your right pilothouse. Most of the current BALPA members are in BALPA for their own reasons, not for reasons of union recognition and representation. That said, I personally would welcome recognition & representation.

Even if current BALPA members had encouraged others to join with recognition and representation in mind, with so much talk of the T & G, the IPA etc, it would have been a waste of time.

Some posters on this thread have expressed anti BALPA feelings due to past experiences, yourself and silverhawk included. Maybe BALPA are not perfect, but they are the only realistic option, it's up to us to make it what we want.

Don't assume current BALPA members have done or are doing nothing. The membership joining packs that got distributed in the LBA crew room drop files didn't put themselves there. But until we can all agree that BALPA is the way forward, it's better to encourage membership quietly. The managment are the best recruiting tool BALPA have, what with dual basing, part time working etc; it's only a matter of time.

BTW, if you want some membership joining packs for MAN distibution, call membership and ask for them.

[Pilot Pete]

Originally Posted by pilothouse

You want me to just JOIN yet you and an unspecified number of others are already members and have offered not a single incentive. You now want ME to join and recruit others!

What are you talking about? What more incentive do you need than bettering your lousy terms and conditions? Whatever bad experiences you have had of 'BALPA' I cannot comment on as I know nothing about them. I am also not a pilot in JET2, but I take an enlightened INDUSTRY view of how ALL pilots in the UK can improve their 'lot' and that is by all companies having strong representation (like the percieved 'better' companies already have). I offer my view as a possible way forward, and in my opinion the ONLY way forward, as I have yet to be convinced that any other form of representation could work.

I take my hat off to Silverhawk for trying with the T&G. He has been big enough to come back on here and openly admit that it has been a non-starter. I admire him for that and it would appear you need a few more pilots with some conviction to sort something out for your combined betterment.

I do not wish to appear personal, but pilothouse, what do you want? Spoon feeding? You keep making comments about how everyone else should do something for you, but seem unprepared to be pro-active. Why do others need to come to you to convince you? You obviously haven't reached the point when you consider 'enough is enough' with regards to your terms and conditions. This will be true of many pilots in your company. Look at the pain the easyJet pilots had to go through before they reached that point late last year and eventually realized that the way forward was to make a stand. They increased their BALPA membership and sent a message to management that has resulted in their recent successful pay negotiations. I fear that the majority of JET2 pilots have not reached that point in your company and people like Silverhawk are banging their heads against the wall.....

If you read through my previous entries in this thread you will see the 'incentives' that I have offered, which make BALPA good value for money. I can only speak from personal experience and I know that my (now 1% due to length of time as a member) have been more than paid back through successful pay negotiations which have yielded more than 1% above what I could have negotiated on a personal level and other enhancements to my terms and conditions, like Block Window Protection, rostering agreements, hotac and travel minimum levels of service, leave bidding, longhaul bidding, 10 pairs of annual guaranteed days off, pension (a mute point, but the ONLY Defined Benefit pension scheme still open to new joiners in the UK airlines) and flexible working where days off can be sold back to the company. There are more besides. All these have been negotiated through a strong BALPA membership, but I make the point again that it is not 'big' BALPA, but a strong company membership giving the elected Company Council the mandate to go to the negotiating table with the strength of support that can yield results. Want any more incentives before you make a choice?

It is the strength of feeling and determination within the individuals to collectively stand up to a management who are just doing what they are paid to do, ie keep costs as low as possible, that will ultimately lead to the individuals deciding to take action. I feel you certainly are not at that stage pilothouse and if the majority of others in JET2 feel the same then you have a few years yet of lousy terms and conditions ahead. You have a high number of pilots who have come from varied backgrounds who are not passionate enough about seeing JET2 as a career airline and an awful lot of new young guys who are still in their honeymoon period of being ever so grateful to have a jet job.

So it's not just a case of current BALPA members not being inclined to get the ball rolling, its about lack of motivation amongst the majority. I personally feel that as a pilot group you will have to go through the pain before you reach the point where the motivation occurs to an extent that can be channelled into action.

I don't see the point in 'big' BALPA running a recruitment meeting. The info about membership is all out there already. You can read it all by clicking on the BALPA website. You can read all about the other membership benefits there too. What BALPA can't do is motivate you. You need to do that yourself, but by the sounds of it you will blame that on BALPA too.

If you want something you have to get off your proverbial @rses and make it happen, because all the time you sit here typing about no-one motivating you, the longer it will be before your position is bettered.

Good luck.

PP

[pilothouse]

Pilot Pete,

Because you don't know Jet2 from the inside, I fear that you are probably missing the point. It is not as simple as you make it sound. I'll leave it at that.

[Pilot Pete]

Originally Posted by pilothouse

Pilot Pete,
Because you don't know Jet2 from the inside, I fear that you are probably missing the point. It is not as simple as you make it sound. I'll leave it at that.

If I'm missing the point, you have your head in the sand. I hope you get it out or else you are destined for poor terms and conditions for many years to come. Explain just how complicated it is; You all join the one organisation that has a proven track record of increasing pilot terms and conditions in the UK and then get a recognition agreement. Simple. If you don't like BALPA because of their imperfect track record then fine. Don't join. But don't whinge about your collective lot and then not do anything pro-active about it. You can negotiate with your employer yourself and get nowhere or you can unite and get one combined voice, singing from the same song sheet, that the management cannot ignore.

All the best.

PP

By the way, I know a number of Jet2 pilots, so not on the inside but I get a reasonable idea for the way things are....

[757operator]

Pete, from one "intruder" to another,

He is only trying to achieve what you suggest, it's just that it won't happen unless there is some positive marketing because BALPA is too expensive for debt-ridden First Officers.

[Pilot Pete]

Originally Posted by 757operator

BALPA is too expensive for debt-ridden First Officers.

Sorry I don't understand that statement. When I was an air taxi pilot earning £18k, just after training, with loads of training debts and a second child on the way I didn't consider it too expensive, I considered it as a necessary expense, and don't forget it's not 1% when you start and all the other benefits which reduce the 1% have been pointed out in previous pages of this thread.

The problem is not enough motivation to join from the individuals. If they want to improve their lot I don't see another option. In my opinion they can't afford NOT to join unless they are happy with their current terms and conditions.

PP

[Boeingmann]

Originally Posted by Pilot Pete

If they want to improve their lot I don't see another option.

PP

I disagree. They can take their problem to the Management, if still unhappy they can leave and join a "career airline". Last time I looked nobody was forcing anyone to stay at Jet2 if they are unhappy.

[Captain Mainwaring]

BALPA

I joined BALPA 5 years ago at my previous employer during a 'memebership drive'. We had a secret postal ballot resulting in 70+% in favour. Nothing happened for 2 years despite several active individuals chasing up progress. We then had another 'membership drive' followed by a ballot with a greater % in favour, again nothing happened. Emerald went bust last month due to some extent because the Dictator running it managed to give BALPA the run around for 5+ years, even with their clear mandate. I am not convinced that BALPA are up to dealing with another Dictatorial style CEO.
I have remained a BALPA member now that i am at Jet2, but only for the Legal Rep alone. I like to think that i am a reasonable chap and can weigh up the arguments, but can't say that i am personally convinced by the above arguments for representation, and i am not alone. My previous experience of BALPA has soured my previous hopeful attitude.
I am leaving Jet2 shortly because of money and T&C's. I don't want to make a fuss or slag-off Jet2 and so just decided to vote with my feet.
Beware the silent majority.