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South Asia and Far East Wannabes A forum for those applying to Cathay Pacific, Dragonair or any other Hong Kong-based airline or operator. Use this area for both Direct Entry Pilot and Cadet-scheme queries.

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Old 14th Jan 2013, 07:57   #4901 (permalink)
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Not for Sale
Posts: 286
There are 248 pages of this thread and there are far more people criticising the iCadetship and C-Scale scheme than the 2 (or 3 if you count me). So if you and Gen Y bothered to read the 248 pages (very few pictures, I know) then you'll find far more than 3. Again, it'll take reading, comprehension and perhaps even an open mind to accept another's point of view that is based on experience, knowledge, and credentials.

The entire CX cadetship was set up to promote aviation and a career opportunity in HK for the local HK nationals and residents. Not my words but from the father of the present day scam himself. Go back and read his updates and reports but for perhaps 2 years ago. Since then it has been unashamedly raped into the present day status - but for the Immigration Dept of HK stepping in. Now the new low is accepted by the new low.

My points about the pros and cons of a (for example) 19 year old joining the iCadetship as opposed to going his/her own path and building his/her own loggable hours and therefore in charge of his/her own destiny has been mentioned many times. In fact I received a PM (the last of 3 such people) who thanked me for the time to correspond via PM's with him, which along with others cemented his decision to turn down the CX scam and as a result he is building hours in the RHS of a FAR 25 turboprop. He'll be in the LHS quicker than a kid with a CPL only to his/her name but for sandwich hours in a CX aircraft, and then a better salary, better career and better long term prospect. Not just my words but actual proof.

Others have also taken the time to PM to disagree with my point of view and swap decent conversions. I've been proven wrong on a few occasions regarding the some facts as I saw them at the time and each time accepted the correction. (I think that was somewhere back around page 170 ish of this thread.... But of course, you took the time to read all of them before lampooning an argument as if you had?)

Each person has their own decision to make - I never denied that. What I find laughable is the quick fire response against anyone disagreeing with the C-Scale, mostly from those who are seeking it and little from those doing it. (Once more, read the entire 248 pages, not just the last few.....) Also comical is those who ask for information yet act like a brat who's xBox has failed when the answer is not what he/she wishes to hear.

I can see how the iCadetship can appeal to a wannabe. I do not agree with it for the long term affect it has on one's own career, the pressures it puts on their colleagues' contracts at CX, for the lowest of low standards CX has succumb to due those with experience largely turning down and running away from the insulting offer, and of course the contribution to the lowering of the profession overall. But again, others defend this C-Scale as a good thing and an "opportunity" while those responsible for it are laughing all the way to the bank with their bonuses at your expense.

No, the majority ARE NOT happy with their jobs at CX. Go take some time away from the comic books and read (careful! Not all those who post are iCadets and have taken off the rose coloured glasses!!):
Merry Christmas!
Changes Needed in the HKAOA
GC votes needed
FAU instead of AOA

There's 6 pages to this one so don't over do it:

Without discussion of the iCadetship (much) you still believe that there only 2 or 3 people not happy at CX? Go and have a beer with any group of CX pilots who've been at the airline for longer than 6 years.

There's also a book that went on the best sellers list by a fella called John Warham that also outlines the warm and fuzzy feeling all get who work for CX.... Again, lots of pages, lots of words but a few pictures also! But again, he has "experience, "credentials", and "knowledge" so you are warned - he will have an opinion perhaps not in line with the average head-in-the-sand Cathay-is-so-gosh-darn-it-super-cool C-Scale defender.

So JA, "it's not exactly true, is it?"

PS: Can anyone tell what to study for an interview? I applied to CX last week and they haven't even offered me a Command on a Space Shuttle yet!!

PPS: How many Space Shuttles does CX have, how many engines does it have and what sort are they?

Last edited by ChinaBeached; 14th Jan 2013 at 07:57.
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Old 15th Jan 2013, 01:57   #4902 (permalink)

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China beached, I think I honestly speak for the majority of people who read this thread - please stop the rhetoric. You may have been on a CX short list once upon a time, but you have never worked here, and thus have only a limited idea to what the job entails.

Please take your anger elsewhere, because this just isn't healthy.
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Old 15th Jan 2013, 06:22   #4903 (permalink)
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from what i heard, there is no more cadetship for international applicants(those without a hkid), isnt it??
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Old 15th Jan 2013, 17:28   #4904 (permalink)
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And that's just it.... Anyone not agreeing to the consensus that C-Scale is a good thing, let alone an "opportunity" are told to shut up & go away. My point was challenged & I replied. You seem to think that you're owed an apology from me for that?

I'm 100% sure I speak for the majority of pilots who despise seeing the disgraceful lowering of standards, terms, conditions & remuneration for pilots. The irony is that those who support C-Scale will be the same crying bloody murder very soon down the track in their career & not if but when they think their colleagues should stand up against the downward spiral of their (once) hard fought climb & career.

Many others had been far more confrontational, aggressive & condescending in their defence of C-Scale & the iCadetship yet you don't go after them? It's many months between posts, & you'd refer it were more I'm sure. Then again you still are hoping that the world is flat if it satisfied the agenda so many force to shove that round peg into the square hole to justify their decision.

(For the record, not "short listed" but "offered / asked").

I never claim to know anywhere as much about the job at CX as do those actually working there for several years. I damn-well know immensely more still than the ignorance & immaturity via questions asked on this thread ("What number should I call to reach CX?") But ironically the pilots at CX with the years of CX experience are shouting louder than most against C-Scale & the iCadetship!! But again you all force ill-gotten reasoning in an ignorant attempt to justify what you're contributing to.

I do know what it took once to be offered a job at CX & I know what a pilot's value is worth. Many don't & ignorantly don't care hence they defend the downward spiral of a once proud profession.

Last edited by ChinaBeached; 15th Jan 2013 at 17:32.
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Old 15th Jan 2013, 22:13   #4905 (permalink)
Join Date: Nov 2009
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S888 - where is the like button

CB - "This just isn't Healthy"

All the best.
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Old 16th Jan 2013, 01:58   #4906 (permalink)

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CB - Again, you are trying to paint a picture that simply does not exist in the manner in which you are presenting it. Second Officers on local terms ( There is no such thing as C-Scale, it is B scale without an expat housing allowance, it's been around since 1988 - hardly a new pay scale ) are pilots first and foremost and who on earth are you to question their professionalism, by depicting them as starry eyed children looking to fly a space shuttle.

How is an SO joining CX via this route today any different to the entire British Airways 'cadetship' back in the Hamble and Oxford days. Many of those pilots are here at CX today - fantastic trainers, great pilots - and they took an equivalent route into the industry.

You may not agree with a lack of housing - agreed it is harder out in HK without one due to the insane rent prices. BUT this is not the lowering if standards and professionalism.

Even without a housing allowance, a first year SO is paid more by CX then a first year FO at BA, and this trend continues throughout your career at those respective airlines. Yes, the US/Europe/Aus have a cheaper cost of living, so there is more wiggle room, but I just want to put some perspective into this view you have that all new SOs are badly trained pilots, with 'shiny jet syndrome,' as you put it. From my experience they are, in fact, a credit to the industry and the airline.

You delight in telling us that you turned your back on Cathay and have moved on, yet you seem unable to do the same with a CX forum regarding the job. Please, a simple 'no thanks, it wasn't for me' would suffice, rather than giving your distorted, misinformed and downright incorrect and insulting views of Cathay, Hong Kong and low hours pilots who have also worked incredibly hard to get here. Again take your anger elsewhere, as we're all tired of it. Good day.
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Old 16th Jan 2013, 02:17   #4907 (permalink)
Join Date: Mar 2011
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Yes, yes..... It's unhealthy to have self worth & respect for a profession??

Join the sheep at selling out a profession & "colleagues" as you scamper to undercut your "fellow" pilots. That's healthy & admirable in your eyes. Go get that rubbery spine checked.

But here's the comments & replies from experienced CX guys regarding the latest C-Scale thread:

New SOs support

Not one post by me there. Go & haunt those guys: you know, the ones you're seeking, trying & hoping to undercut. Cheap is what cheap does.

You're not the best candidate for the job. You're the cheapest option. You're the result or leftovers of others refusing to apply & refusing the offer. How proud you must be.

Last edited by ChinaBeached; 16th Jan 2013 at 02:19.
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Old 16th Jan 2013, 06:42   #4908 (permalink)
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Vietnam
Posts: 763

I think you may need to see a professional. You seem to have some unresolved issues.
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Old 16th Jan 2013, 08:02   #4909 (permalink)
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Dark Side OF Moon Or SE Qld
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Actually CB I speak for the majority of people who read this forum (like I'd know), please don't stop posting, don't stop trying to open the eyes of those blinded by SJS.

Pilotchute, why that comment? It's a bit inflammatory


Last edited by j3pipercub; 16th Jan 2013 at 08:05.
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Old 16th Jan 2013, 14:25   #4910 (permalink)
Join Date: Mar 2011
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Regarding "C-Scale", that is the PRECISE term used by the HKAOA to describe the latest severe cut in the CX pilot remuneration package. Argue against them. They defined it such. (Careful! They are also filled with “experienced” CX pilots, non pilots and independently hired directors and lawyers).

Seeing as the vast majority of head-in-the-sand critics wish to point fingers without ANY form of fact or basis, here's just a little bit of light relief regarding the "STANDARDS" that our illustrious S888 says have not dropped regarding the CX iCadet and C-Scale applicants. So, sit back, grab a beer and enjoy these "standards" that CX attract!

This is just from the first 25 pages of the thread. Consider the other 249 pages…. Here is the "credit to the industry and the airline" as you, S888, have declared them to all be:

(The “When will CX reply to me?” was asked only a few hundred times…..)

“And if selected are you allowed to bring your wife to AUST. and she can be in her own place.”

Rahul.majithia (great use of the English language):
“i have completed faa cpl n have 235 hrs of flyin with multi rating
cleared dgca papers n ready for my conversion
going to fly my recency in sept
m i eligible for cathay pacific cadet pilot programme??”

“Does CP send you an email to set up a phone interview?”

“Its been 10 weeks for me. Ive nearly lost all hope.”

Flying Hamster (what’s this “google” thing let alone phone book about then??)
“Does anybody have an email address on which to contact the HR/Recruitment team at Cathay?”

“I am currently a Canadian Citizen and only legally allowed to work in Canada. Am I eligible for the cadet program?”

Blue_side-up: (from Nov 2009… And no drop in recuirtment standards????)
“Flight experience is not required (see website!)”

rahulpereira: (yep – ask a “rumour” forum for facts….?)
“just want to make sure thru you guys if I am eligible for the program. thanks”

“I ve been going thro the thread, u guys r doin a gr8 job here! I m one amongst u guys who applied recently! My ques is whts wit the website??? Has thr been any movement out thr?”

Swine Facipic (this guy actually got an interview):
“IN MY CASE - "Initial Application done in April 2009" That is 9 Months , PHUKIN HELL, Still no answer ... I don't know what the hell is going on there at Cathay City (Flight Recruitment).”

“can you tell me which CX aircraft have Winglet?”

nick185 (the reply):
“I think so - have a look on airliners.net and see if you can find any 777 with winglets”

“I am wondering what this the different between Airbus and Boeing? Is there any website or post i can read here@@?”

nick185 (reply, yep – that’s it!)
“Airbuss = European Boeing = US”

“I applied a few days ago after I finally realized that engineering job is so boring (something I didn't realize back in the uni) and I need to pursue my childhood dream. I hope my PPL isn't going to be a disadvantage in selection process.”

Happyguy99 (sharing some actual interview questions asked):
“1) if you are heading 135 degrees and wish to fly a reciprocal heading, what new heading do you need to fly?
2) if you're at 33,000 ft and intend to descend to sea level at a rate of 3,000 feet per minute, how long will the descent take?”

first_officer (Feb 2010):
“can any one please tell me when will cathy pacific start their cadetpilot programme.i am so much confused...”

nicky7789 (become a brain surgeon, but only if that is your true “passion”!?):
“wat is the most common jobs ppl will do when they didnt get accepted in the CX cadet pilot program interview?”

“How should I write for the oral presentation topic?”
“7R and 7L(do we read L or left?R or right?)”

“Wuts going on……I'm from Florida……. Applied back in August and sort of forgot about it.”

“i am from US and i got in trouble with law and have misdameanour on my record, will that affect me.”

Happyguy99 (sharing actual interview questions asked – post _#419 pg 21):
“What do my parents think of me being here at the interview?
What did my parents think when I decided to become a pilot?”

“if you have 0 flying hours do they normally ask you echnical questions as well doring the interviews?”

“Cool so they give you a type rating? because I'm not sure if I'm getting it right seems like SO's fly one type on day and then another the next?”

So, S888, my argument against C-Scale and the severe lowering of industry standards, terms, conditions and remuneration is "distorted, misinformed and downright incorrect"? You are welcome to your opinion (unlike you of mine). I back mine up with facts. You have sticks and stones.

These guys and their ilk "worked incredibly hard to get there"? How "incredibly hard" can it possibly be to have zero hours (as it was originally)? How "incredibly hard" is it to write basic English syntax? How "incredibly hard" was or is it to undercut the workforce so severely and accept what others refused? How "incredibly hard" was or is it to force pressure on the present CX pilots' terms, conditions and remuneration packages? You contribute willingly and proudly to the downward spiral of the industry. How many high fives a day do you throw at yourself??

Pilotchute - I placed you as a guy who could have a civil discussion and agree to disagree with reason and respect. Obviously the bandwagon was too "incredibly hard" to not jump on. Pity.

Last edited by ChinaBeached; 16th Jan 2013 at 14:27.
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Old 16th Jan 2013, 16:16   #4911 (permalink)
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Cliffs
Posts: 143
Is anyone in the process of applying at the moment?

Apparently there has been a system error for a week now that says:
"The online application system is currently unavailable, please update your application information later.
If you need further assistance, please contact our eService Centre at +852 2747 2200 or send an email to eservice@cathaypacific.com. (1099)"

How long is it usually down for?
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Old 16th Jan 2013, 16:54   #4912 (permalink)
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 91
The icadet is dead in the water, but there are starry eyed hopefuls still clinging to the forlorn hope they will be called up 'sometime soon'.

Notice the recent call-backs are most;y from HK.
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Old 16th Jan 2013, 17:50   #4913 (permalink)
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Fragrant Harbour
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I think the iCadets get paid too much. Comparing them to the DESO applicants from the past, AE and TT experience is significantly less and it shows in the cockpit with the occasional exception. They should get an apprentice pay until FO 2 when they actually become a useful crew member. Then they should get on the normal pay scale with full expatriate benefits.

Or scrap the whole International cadet program and bring DESO and DEFO back.

Last edited by GTC58; 16th Jan 2013 at 17:53.
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Old 16th Jan 2013, 21:05   #4914 (permalink)
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I very much doubt that DESO and DEFO will ever come back if the AE and TT guys don't have too much trouble upgrading to FO.

You can write what you like but last time I looked half the world's economies are in the toilet and thousands of people (not just with 250 hours but hundreds of people with significant jet time) are out of work. In most of western Europe this trend is set to continue for the next few years at least.

By taking the package people are pulling down pilot T & C's I hear you say. No because a lot of airlines are already doing that very effectively. The Cathay deal is nowhere near the worst deal out there. Ryanair who ask you to pay 30k Euro for a type rating then make you a contractor who may pay you as little as 1500 Euro a month comes to mind. American regional's where the starting pay for an FO can be as little as 16k USD a year also comes up.

B scale is never coming back neither is the large housing allowance. Just let it go.
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Old 17th Jan 2013, 00:48   #4915 (permalink)
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Like I said. If there is somewhere I don't see anyone pointing the way. The next thing to look to see is happens to the first guys who start hitting on 55 years old and how many will extend to 65 on the 'reduced' terms. Maybe then the argument will no longer be just on new joiners. It's actually across the board. No one is spared. When premium passengers flew on premium airlines paying premium salaries. Pilots got top dollar. Now 'everyone can fly' for a price of a bus ticket sometimes. No need to be an economics major. It's never gonna be like before.
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Old 17th Jan 2013, 00:58   #4916 (permalink)
Join Date: Mar 2011
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So to summarise your point: The Pied Piper pipes & everyone races to blindly scurry along off a cliff.

CX is in HK. It is not in the same market as the insany volatile Nth American aviation sector or the Brits Abroad cheap holiday package LCC market in the UK, or Europe either.. Of course it is subject to exposure by definition of an international airline to these influences. Of the airlines & sectors you mention by & large salary positions are across the board (not counting the BA example). At CX the mastermind of C-Scale didn't take a pay cut to "keep the airline competitive" did he? He put it on to the next generation all at a time of record profits!! (And you've danced to his time, then said thank you). How's his salary gone then? It's screaming ahead due the bonuses!!!

The same year the iCadetship & C-Scale was introduced was AFTER CX made record profits. The airline industry in Asia & the M. East has seen the GFC through far better than the other sectors of the market you mention. In fact they've set the tone for growth & expansion despite what has gone on elsewhere!

Comparing CX in "HK" salaries to Nth America, Europe or the UK not up mention LCC's is like comparing unskilled labour salaries from Australia to Bangladesh. It ain't apples & apples.

B-Scale will not return because so many have welcomed it, endorsed it & said thanks for it against all experienced opinion & advice. In my group 59 out of 60 turned it down.

B-Scale would've returned within 3-6 months if pilots & wannabe pilots showed a minute bit of solidarity to defend their careers & profession. Not my words but from VERY reliable sources from with CX. Supply & demand. But instead it worked in the opposite of what it could've let alone should've.

There are far, FAR better jobs for pilots with as little as an endorsement, CPL & IR that will get a newbie into the RHS of a turboprop or even jet for far better money & loggable hours than what the CX chained situation creates. People have to simply look & make it happen. China, SE Asia, sections of the ME & Eastern Europe are are screaming for pilots with FAR better pay & FAR better long term career prospects.

Just let it go? And what? Not speak out against what CX has demonstrated they can do to pilot terms, conditions & remuneration so my job becomes in jeopardy from another guy happy & willing to undermine & undercut my salary, terms & conditions? No effing way.

Last edited by ChinaBeached; 17th Jan 2013 at 01:13.
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Old 17th Jan 2013, 01:10   #4917 (permalink)
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Happy to see you keep on posting mate

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Old 17th Jan 2013, 01:31   #4918 (permalink)
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Global
Age: 43
Posts: 63
What about SQ? Similar playground? Apples for apples? I like to hear your opinion on them vs CX. Such as Unions, Bypass pay, Paying for Training, enforced no-pay leave, lower benfits etc. Cost of living comparison etc.

I would also like to hear your take on the ME airlines as I understood from some of the guys that they are still held up in holding pools which you highlighted before that that would be a far better option.

All that you said solidarity wise I agree, but where have there been any success PILOTS vs AIRLINES lately? Not in CX, Qantas and several other legacy airlines.

Pilots joining any airline or applicants for any industry need to feed themselves with more than just principles. It is fallacy to think that WE actually control profit and loss and there will always be another bean counter round the corner.

You are more than entitled to voice your opinion and views and have provided an excellent summary of negatives from 249 pages. But without an ERN, actually having lived in HK for extended periods and spent time with 2729 pilots to get the complete view (of which I can't say many have) it will always just be an opinion.

Noble to voice the frustrations and negatives that exists and gives all wannabes an idea that they will always have the chance of sharing a cockpit with similar guys who share your views and prepare them for it.
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Old 17th Jan 2013, 06:48   #4919 (permalink)
Join Date: Mar 2011
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SQ: pilots as a united group in negotiation & conjunction with management agreed to cuts & sacrifices, etc. Again, this is in conjunction with management. Not so at all at CX. The naive new generation joining CX are paying the cost for the arrogant top end. CX have not suffered the same economic hits as SIA has or did. As is known, CX introduced C-Scale and the iCadetship at a time of record profits, hence very different to the SIA issue. (Singapore Airlines' pilots agree to pay cuts, non-paid leave - Times Of India)

SQ also are far more exposed to the LCC plague, and even are part of it via Scoot. Same as QF. A minimal amount of reading on the QF vs JQ money swapping and paper trail: Cookies must be enabled | Herald Sun

Believe or not there are more than just 3 x shiny jet operators in the Middle East. For all the kiddies out there, here's more research that took me 5 seconds to find on potential job vacancies in the ME: http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/oper...eg=Middle+East yet there's such a deep consensus amongst too many that "it's too hard". It may involve a turboprop but sadly too many also deem this as below them. (Refer previous posts).

Go get those hours, experience and ATP/ATPL and like magic the opportunities keep opening up that do not chain pilots to an airline for 6+ years and more when considering recognisable hours.

I don't see my or any of the other 58 pilots' stance at all as noble, even if your comment was tongue-in-cheek (??). I see it as a minimal and obvious decision that my or our career, all the effort, hard work, too many relocations to count, relentless dedicated hour building, sacrifice and support (I was) shown deserve. Again, if everyone turned down C-Scale then by pure supply and demand remuneration must improve or CX would implode. Some see C-Scale and iCadetship as an "opportunity" - but at what long term cost?

I welcome other opinions and appreciate your reply actually. I cannot ever know everyone's personal circumstance and yes, people need more than just principles to feed a family. My angst is against the die-hard defenders of C-Scale and the iCadetship as a good thing when in fact many if not most seek it as a easy option. They argue me and others with no facts but a "screw you and go away if you disagree with my GenY me-first attitude!"

Last edited by ChinaBeached; 17th Jan 2013 at 07:27.
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Old 18th Jan 2013, 04:27   #4920 (permalink)
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Planet Earth, mostly
Posts: 417

I sent a e-mail to Cathey Pacific for a pilot job yesterday but still no reply! Can you tell me when I can get a reply???

Also, not sure what plane I want to fly, but its got to be a new one, so either B787 or A380 - what do you suggest?

One more fing, what is the phone number and address of Cathey??

Cheers mate, keep it real.
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