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Old 30th Jul 2014, 17:59   #1041 (permalink)
 
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It may be that I've missed them, but not seen any photos of what must be hundreds of passenger seats, is that unusual? Or just the random nature of where things have fallen?
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Old 30th Jul 2014, 19:01   #1042 (permalink)
 
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There are lots of pictures of seats, most of which are too gruesome to show.
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Old 30th Jul 2014, 20:27   #1043 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Volume View Post
Looks about right. The rod in the picture is a galley or toilet or wardrobe upper attachment, diameter of the rod end housing would be around 25 mm. So 0.4m might even be a little small.
Of course a ruler would be a little more precise...
Just the sort of info I was looking for - guess it might be part of the missile then. Not sure if there is any aircraft part it could be at that size ?
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Old 30th Jul 2014, 20:35   #1044 (permalink)
 
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The outer layer of the (perforated) cockpit area shows signs of being very close to detonation of the warhead, so close that it was touched by expanding hot ball of fire/gases, not only spreaded with shrapnel. The skin is blackened from the smoke, burned, almost scorched by high temperature, there is a pattern of thousands very small craters from light, tiny, high-speed particles.

So maybe the outer layer of fuselage was for a split of second heated to high temperature, to a point where the alluminium alloy was softened and edges of shrapnel holes were bent outwards by air escaping from the pressurised hull ? Or somehow by the external 0,9 Mach airflow ?
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Old 30th Jul 2014, 20:46   #1045 (permalink)
 
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Re: the missile . . .

Missiles fired from the Buk system travel at approximately 3200km/h - or around 3000 fps.

The missile doesn't impact the target - but detonates in close proximity.

When it does detonate - it doesn't "stop" in the air - instead its momentum continues to carry it along its trajectory.

While some parts of the missile may impact the target and fall with it - many pieces of the missile will continue to fly past the target.

So - I highly doubt that you will find many "pieces" of the missile scattered about the debris. The plane came apart in a relatively wide area - and I suspect most of the parts of the missile (if it was a missile) came down some distance away from the aircraft. Best chance to find pieces would likely be if any are imbedded in the aircraft.

These objects all fell from high altitude and momentum carried them downrange of the point of impact (even if only slightly). The simple fact that the two were traveling at different speeds will create some distance between the debris field of the aircraft and missile.
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Old 30th Jul 2014, 21:14   #1046 (permalink)
 
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More Parts

Added a piece of the forward bulkhead https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3839/...eddff506_o.jpg seen here...


and the piece held by a fence seen here...
http://cdn.salzburg.com/nachrichten/...1-53854440.jpg

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Old 30th Jul 2014, 21:22   #1047 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
WFFC
When it does detonate - it doesn't "stop" in the air - instead its momentum continues to carry it along its trajectory.
Not to be pedantic, but the missile is designed to hit the target directly, that's what the seeker head is supposed to do. Therefore missiles have besides the proximity fuse also a contact fuse. A non maneuvering and non jamming big target like a T777 is prone for a direkt hit. The proximity fuse is there to ensure a kill, even if the missile would miss the target, because of bad steering, electronic jamming or target evasive maneuvering.

There is therefore a high probability that parts of the Missile system can be found in the vicinity of the cockpit section.
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Old 30th Jul 2014, 21:47   #1048 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Retired F4

Not to be pedantic, but the missile is designed to hit the target directly, that's what the seeker head is supposed to do. Therefore missiles have besides the proximity fuse also a contact fuse. A non maneuvering and non jamming big target like a T777 is prone for a direkt hit. The proximity fuse is there to ensure a kill, even if the missile would miss the target, because of bad steering, electronic jamming or target evasive maneuvering.

There is therefore a high probability that parts of the Missile system can be found in the vicinity of the cockpit section.
Well - then I learned something new today. I understood that the 9M38 and the 9M317 contained only (proportional nav) proximity fuses. I think the belief is that this was a 9M38. Is there a source that verifies the 9M38 also contains a contact fuse?
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Old 30th Jul 2014, 22:18   #1049 (permalink)
 
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This describes the missile and its variants
Buk missile system - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 31st Jul 2014, 02:47   #1050 (permalink)
 
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Skin material?

What is the outer skin material and thickness on the cockpit area, and in particular is it different metal immediately around the windows and supporting the wipers?

I've noticed that some parts of the skin appear to crater while other parts are simply punched through.
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Old 31st Jul 2014, 03:11   #1051 (permalink)
 
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A typical skin material near a cockpit is 2024-T3 or -T4, 0.040 THK.


A windshield frame is usually a complex shape of AL ( can be 7075) extrusions, may include steel parts.
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Old 31st Jul 2014, 03:54   #1052 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
What is the outer skin material and thickness on the cockpit area, and in particular is it different metal immediately around the windows and supporting the wipers?
I've noticed that some parts of the skin appear to crater while other parts are simply punched through.
do you have a photo to precise your question's location? No doubt lots of reinforcements behind the skin to withstand bird strikes etc.
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Old 31st Jul 2014, 05:48   #1053 (permalink)
 
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re cockpit skin

Quote:
What is the outer skin material and thickness on the cockpit area, and in particular is it different metal immediately around the windows and supporting the wipers?
I know that for protection against bird strikes on the 767, the ' skull' or " crown" portion above the windows was changed to titanium instead of thick aluminum. This was the result of a test ( chicken gun ) of an x pound bird at 400 mph at that area. On the early 767, the hydraulic system valves and certain switches were located in that area .

I do not recall for sure re the 777, but I believe that titanium was/is used for the area immediately above the windows for similar reasons. And its a good bet that the window surround channels are also titanium due to strength and weight considerations and corrosion .
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Old 31st Jul 2014, 11:23   #1054 (permalink)
 
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https://flic.kr/p/otbtvY

closeup cockpit/port from Jeroen Akkermans
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Old 31st Jul 2014, 19:59   #1055 (permalink)
 
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SA-11 ???

If flight MH17 was downed by a SA-11 like depicted below, than people on the ground should have noticed the noise and smoke trail.




As you can see on https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPtDy18Nk5I the SA-11 produces a lot of noise and leaves a clearly marked smoke trail.

I have not heard of any wittinesses confirming this.
There are several villages in the vicinity and there was an almost clear sky at the time of the accident
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Old 31st Jul 2014, 20:19   #1056 (permalink)
 
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I don't suppose that anyone has been allowed to ask them. All visits to the area so far have been under the supervision of the pro-Russia militia. Not much upside and a lot of downside for the locals if they point the finger at the militia as having launched.
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Old 31st Jul 2014, 21:15   #1057 (permalink)
 
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"If flight MH17 was downed by a SA-11 (...)"

And what could be any other cause ??

The evidence (as seen on pictures of plane parts) shows that a passenger plane flying at high altitude on eastern course was destroyed by detonation of big fragmentation warhead very close to the cockpit area ( distance was few meters at most - the small area of scorched and burned surface and pattern of the shrapnel holes says that).

This could be only SAM or AAM (with fragmentation warhead) and it could not came from the west (the proximity fuse would trigger much earlier then, hitting the rear or center part of the plane).

The fact that missile detonaded passing very close to the cockpit area suggests a nearly head-on intercept course (missle aiming at the target's radar "center-of-mass" - we don't know where it was at this angle aspect, probably somwhere near central part of the plane, but possible radar reflectors are also wing leading edges, whole engines and cockpit with it's windows and front radome). The rest of the plane surface is much less radar-reflective. Missile steers with some possible final miss distance, too. On it's way the missile passes near cockpit and proximity fuse works on.

If we exclude possibility of heavy AAM (with fragmentation warhead) fired by a fighter plane from the eastearn direction, the only other possibility is a SAM with big fragmentation warhead fired from the east too. The Buk system was reported to be in place and shooting other aircrafts, it is said that sattelite data confirms a SAM intercept, not AAM by plane.

Any other weapon (guns) or inside explosion (bomb) doesn't fit to known damage of cockpit area.

Last edited by amizaur; 1st Aug 2014 at 19:21.
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Old 31st Jul 2014, 21:15   #1058 (permalink)
 
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A screenshot (taken not by me) of a witness' confession:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bs5C9rVCcAALAz8.png
Translation: at a Snezhnoe town local web-community, on July 17:

- Yesterday that Buk was towed through the center of our town. (invective), we forgot ourselves in playing war games. I hate myself.

- I'm not sure that it was that same Buk.

- I saw the rocket launch myself, then I rejoiced at knocking out the Ukrainians. I repent before God.
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Old 1st Aug 2014, 02:47   #1059 (permalink)
 
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Lightning in region

This archive shows lightning present in Central Ukraine, and in Eastern Ukraine shortly before MH17 passed over.

http://www.lightningmaps.org/blitzortung/europe/index.php?bo_page=archive&bo_hour_range=24&bo_oldmap=0&bo_ol dani=0&bo_map=0&bo_year=2014&bo_month=7&bo_day=17&bo_hour_fr om=13&bo_animation=1&lang=en#bo_arch_strikes_maps_form

Last edited by Mahatma Kote; 1st Aug 2014 at 02:48. Reason: spelling
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Old 1st Aug 2014, 05:53   #1060 (permalink)
 
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Grrr PUUHHHLEESE

There are many previous posts in this thread re the missile vs fighter theories

Most all re fighter have been debunked.
There have also been posts re the typical buk missile flight profile which seem to summarize as follows

a) very high speed M= 3 plus
b) very high altitude capability 70 to 80 K feet
c) flight profile via radar and proximity mention the missile typically leads the aircraft, dives on it from a higher altitude and explodes via proximity and/or contact

d) left side Cockpit damage AND shrapnel " skid' marks on left wing UPPER surface indicate that missile was at at wing level or slightly above when detonated

e) not so obvious is that almost any kind of ' corner' angle of aluminum makes a good reflector- consider the wing to body junction for instance

f) U.S tracking claims it was a missile

ALL of which support a missile from a general head on position.

g) what remains to be proven is WHO and WHY fired.
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