Asiana flight crash at San Francisco
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Once they found themselves where they were and forgetting how they got there for a moment, might raising the flaps 10 degrees have at least gotten them over the wall - same as doing so got the guys at Heathrow beyond the approach lights?
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They were at Flap 30. Touching the flap lever at the speed they were at would result in an instant deep stall with NO chance for recovery.
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Just by way of an observation which may explain some of the "background noise" here, how many people here attended a CRM course in the past ten years and were not told, "Korean airlines had a problem, a few years ago, but that was fixed by CRM training", or words to that effect?
That's why people keep harping on it, even if it's irrelevant in this case. The actual, unspoken, issue, is "How effective was the CRM training that I, and others, underwent?"
That's why people keep harping on it, even if it's irrelevant in this case. The actual, unspoken, issue, is "How effective was the CRM training that I, and others, underwent?"
Last edited by Methersgate; 9th Jul 2013 at 16:42.
Why would you have a mode to descend at maximum rate to an unspecified or zero altitude? If it's called Flight Level Change, shouldn't it require that you specify the Flight Level you want to Change to?
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one possible scenario is "the FLCH trap" compounded by a total disregard of the "safeguards" of the Stabilised Approach criteria?
They dropped below GS 83 sec out. 60 sec out, they're way below. 45 sec out, way below. 30 sec out, way below.
The PAPI phrase is "red on red and you're dead". Were they looking at red lights the entire time, not thinking what it means? It was a visual approach -- they had to be looking outside at least sometime.
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an airbus would not have let the airspeed decay to that point surely boeing has a similar system on the 777?
I wouldn't go down the road of praising the french system too much, it has displayed a few more flaws up to today, so it might be a Pandoras box.
You can do such stunts with any machine, protections help you only to the point where they mercilessly reveal your incompetence.
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Regarding the above profile, hasn't it been preliminarily established that the autopilot was disconnected at 1600 feet?
iamhives-
iamhives-
NTSB: Briefing Prelim Data
82 secs before impact - AP off - 1600 ft alt
73 secs - 173kts
54 secs - 149kts
34 secs - 134kts - 500 ft
16 secs - 118kts - 200 ft
8 secs - 112kts - 125 ft
3 secs - 103kts
Impact - 106kts
82 secs before impact - AP off - 1600 ft alt
73 secs - 173kts
54 secs - 149kts
34 secs - 134kts - 500 ft
16 secs - 118kts - 200 ft
8 secs - 112kts - 125 ft
3 secs - 103kts
Impact - 106kts
Last edited by thcrozier; 9th Jul 2013 at 17:49.
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Airbubba, Pulling up the NWS-SFO station history the altimeter setting was 29.82, so if they set to 29.92 the adirus would have displayed about 90 foot high. Could be a contributing factor??
As an Avionics guy this sure seems like a "human factors" problem of epic proportions, BUT, I am not willing at this point to discount instrumentation.
Anybody know if the FDR pulls it's data for air data from the buss out of the ADIRU or out of the buss from the symbol generator to the EFIS?
As an Avionics guy this sure seems like a "human factors" problem of epic proportions, BUT, I am not willing at this point to discount instrumentation.
Anybody know if the FDR pulls it's data for air data from the buss out of the ADIRU or out of the buss from the symbol generator to the EFIS?
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How many of us need to go back and open FCOM to refresh our memory that A/T speed protection is inhabited below 100RA during approach?
How many of us have wondered if PAPI is showing 4 whites 4 reds or 4 pinks under bright sunlight condition in some airport?
Yes problem can be fixed by overriding the lever, yes we should have distance vs altitude check.
No matter what, the human factor is there and for them, there is no escape from responsibility. Because of them, we are now more aware of the system design, do and not to do during visual approach.
How many of us have wondered if PAPI is showing 4 whites 4 reds or 4 pinks under bright sunlight condition in some airport?
Yes problem can be fixed by overriding the lever, yes we should have distance vs altitude check.
No matter what, the human factor is there and for them, there is no escape from responsibility. Because of them, we are now more aware of the system design, do and not to do during visual approach.
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What happens *after* evacuation?
A factual SLF-question, please:
On many of the fotos one sees PAX after evacuation (meaning those apparently not injured, i.e. able to move) "calmly" standing surprisingly close to the smoking wreckage (e.g. near the wingtips, or even closer). Which seems not a good idea with a large plane in flames...
The question: Do evacuation training/procedures also cover what should happen after people have negotiated the slides?
My immediate thought ("have them run as quickly as far away as they can") does not stand second thought: They might end up e.g. on a parallel active runway or in an otherwise dangerous area, in the path of approaching emergency vehicles (!) etc.
Is there any official protocol to cover this? (I do of course realize that cabin crew will be available outside the plane only after completed evacuation, at the earliest.)
Or is anything "after the slide" the scope of the emergency services anyway?
And what might be a "safe" minimum distance in such situations?
On many of the fotos one sees PAX after evacuation (meaning those apparently not injured, i.e. able to move) "calmly" standing surprisingly close to the smoking wreckage (e.g. near the wingtips, or even closer). Which seems not a good idea with a large plane in flames...
The question: Do evacuation training/procedures also cover what should happen after people have negotiated the slides?
My immediate thought ("have them run as quickly as far away as they can") does not stand second thought: They might end up e.g. on a parallel active runway or in an otherwise dangerous area, in the path of approaching emergency vehicles (!) etc.
Is there any official protocol to cover this? (I do of course realize that cabin crew will be available outside the plane only after completed evacuation, at the earliest.)
Or is anything "after the slide" the scope of the emergency services anyway?
And what might be a "safe" minimum distance in such situations?
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I do not understand why people would even fault the airport for not having the ILS fully functioning.
A pilot should be able to fly without it. Shouldn't we expect a professional pilot to be able to safely land his aircraft if THE AIRCRAFT'S NAVIGATION SYSTEM IS DOWN.
Do these guys train in the SIM for a raw data single engine hand flown approach? If the airplane is capable of doing it, then the pilot flying it ought to be capable of doing it.
A pilot should be able to fly without it. Shouldn't we expect a professional pilot to be able to safely land his aircraft if THE AIRCRAFT'S NAVIGATION SYSTEM IS DOWN.
Do these guys train in the SIM for a raw data single engine hand flown approach? If the airplane is capable of doing it, then the pilot flying it ought to be capable of doing it.
Last edited by eaglewwit; 9th Jul 2013 at 17:44.
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I agree with Lost in Saigon. I flew the 757/767/777-200 and -300 for years. All of us have been caught high and close on various visual approaches over the years. That is the time to turn off the automation and just fly it like a regular airplane. The 777-300 can be flown easily with one hand on the control wheel, and one hand on the throttles. Flying 101.
Doing this though, you have to be so far in front of the airplane that the automation will never catch up, and never should be involved. Fussing with mode changes during these high, close in visual approaches, is an invitation for trouble.
Also in play, is what frame of mind the pilots were in starting the approach. Sometimes it is better to realize that you are not in the best position mentally to perform at your peak, therefore try another approach or let the F/O fly it. Time will tell how human factors played into this accident.
Doing this though, you have to be so far in front of the airplane that the automation will never catch up, and never should be involved. Fussing with mode changes during these high, close in visual approaches, is an invitation for trouble.
Also in play, is what frame of mind the pilots were in starting the approach. Sometimes it is better to realize that you are not in the best position mentally to perform at your peak, therefore try another approach or let the F/O fly it. Time will tell how human factors played into this accident.
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After leaving instructions
If I remember the end of the safety briefing correctly:
Leave all your carry on belongings behind;
... Jump down the slide with your legs straight out in front of you.
After exiting, move away from the aircraft.
Leave all your carry on belongings behind;
... Jump down the slide with your legs straight out in front of you.
After exiting, move away from the aircraft.
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so the holes all starting to line up..picking out from the more sensible posts on here...fatigue, power distance, finger trouble, FLCH etc, but no real clues how/why they were so distracted to not notice the speed decay until way too late.
Last edited by Mr Angry from Purley; 9th Jul 2013 at 18:08.
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NTSB
NTSB to Hold Third Media Briefing on Asiana Airlines Flight 214 crash in San Francisco
July 9, 2013
San Francisco –The National Transportation Safety Board will hold its third media briefing today on the investigation into the crash of Asiana Airlines Flight 214, in San Francisco, that occurred on May 6, 2013.
Event: Press Briefing
Date/Time: Tuesday, July 9, 2013 at 2:00 p.m. (PDT)
July 9, 2013
San Francisco –The National Transportation Safety Board will hold its third media briefing today on the investigation into the crash of Asiana Airlines Flight 214, in San Francisco, that occurred on May 6, 2013.
Event: Press Briefing
Date/Time: Tuesday, July 9, 2013 at 2:00 p.m. (PDT)
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Wired actually explains an approach
It's overly simplified, but seems like this is the first one I've seen that simply tried to explain how an approach operates. Not so sure about the "any pilot who has passed the exam and has a license should be able to make a visual approach" line, guessing the writer doesn't drive big jets, but at least no talk about magical cranes.
After Asiana 214, Examining the Intricacies and Perils of Landing a Modern Airliner | Autopia | Wired.com
After Asiana 214, Examining the Intricacies and Perils of Landing a Modern Airliner | Autopia | Wired.com
To me as non-777 rated guy, this approach seems a bit like a recovery from a hot-and-high arrival.
Seeing the profile and data posted by joema and thcrozier, it is apparent that the leveloff is accompagnied with a marked speed reduction from 170+ to around 150kIAS. I have seen several approaches - on other types of course - where the realization that the current flap setting allows too little drag for further speed reduction combined with a rapidly approaching stabilization gate was reacted to with exactly this pattern: pulling the nose up, thereby getting a bit above glide, to reduce speed below the gear or next flap speed, dropping the next configuration, then using the increased drag to dive back on the glide slope.
Of course, this is no reason for an accident. But it introduces a bit of instability into the approach which may be harder to catch with no cues like a glide, PAPI, VNAV patch or the like; even more so with a crew that has just completed an all-night duty.
I obviously stand to be corrected by 777-rated colleagues.
Seeing the profile and data posted by joema and thcrozier, it is apparent that the leveloff is accompagnied with a marked speed reduction from 170+ to around 150kIAS. I have seen several approaches - on other types of course - where the realization that the current flap setting allows too little drag for further speed reduction combined with a rapidly approaching stabilization gate was reacted to with exactly this pattern: pulling the nose up, thereby getting a bit above glide, to reduce speed below the gear or next flap speed, dropping the next configuration, then using the increased drag to dive back on the glide slope.
Of course, this is no reason for an accident. But it introduces a bit of instability into the approach which may be harder to catch with no cues like a glide, PAPI, VNAV patch or the like; even more so with a crew that has just completed an all-night duty.
I obviously stand to be corrected by 777-rated colleagues.
Not so sure about the "any pilot who has passed the exam and has a license should be able to make a visual approach" line, guessing the writer doesn't drive big jets, but at least no talk about magical cranes.
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A couple of FLCH questions from a pilot unfamiliar with the type:
1. Does the vertical mode revert to the one previously selected when FLCH is de-selected?
2. Is FLCH a click on/click off selection on the FCP or does it need to be continuously selected via a switch on the yoke?
1. Does the vertical mode revert to the one previously selected when FLCH is de-selected?
2. Is FLCH a click on/click off selection on the FCP or does it need to be continuously selected via a switch on the yoke?