Asiana flight crash at San Francisco
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I NEED A QUICK FIX!
Best Rate: Posting # 1035. You queried whether some of us put landing rwy in fix page(s) for extra guidance?
Yes I do, everywhere I go, with/without ILS, VOR/DME, NDB and the rest, complete with range ring(s) with a pre-computed altitude to alert me to vertical deviations.
Alas, amidst all the noise in this forum topic about cultural differences and training etc, I regret to announce it was a G-registered TRE, in a G-registered 'frame, flying UK AOC rules into a UK London airport, who said not to encourage the F/Os to do that, and refused to enter the info at my request, me being the authorised captain and he being PF for that sector!
So before us westerners start throwing the merde at the other cultures, perhaps we could start by puncturing some of the arrogant ego's to be found in our own ranks?
Some of the total rubbish which apparently is thrust upon our RHS colleagues as well as LHS crew, by European training staff, needs to be flushed out of the system.
It has long been a bugbear of mine, freely admitted, that it's high time our own training staff were more closely monitored and censured if they are found to be failing to sing from the company standard hymnsheet.
One recent example is that of a new-to-type and new to flying F/O who expressed his doubts as to how to manage the NGs energy in the descent, to a very senior training captain with whom he was flying.
The reply given "you're in an airline now, this is not a training school......!" sends a chill down my spine.
And we could be exporting this sort of rubbish to the high-accident rate airlines.............................................?!?!
Yes I do, everywhere I go, with/without ILS, VOR/DME, NDB and the rest, complete with range ring(s) with a pre-computed altitude to alert me to vertical deviations.
Alas, amidst all the noise in this forum topic about cultural differences and training etc, I regret to announce it was a G-registered TRE, in a G-registered 'frame, flying UK AOC rules into a UK London airport, who said not to encourage the F/Os to do that, and refused to enter the info at my request, me being the authorised captain and he being PF for that sector!
So before us westerners start throwing the merde at the other cultures, perhaps we could start by puncturing some of the arrogant ego's to be found in our own ranks?
Some of the total rubbish which apparently is thrust upon our RHS colleagues as well as LHS crew, by European training staff, needs to be flushed out of the system.
It has long been a bugbear of mine, freely admitted, that it's high time our own training staff were more closely monitored and censured if they are found to be failing to sing from the company standard hymnsheet.
One recent example is that of a new-to-type and new to flying F/O who expressed his doubts as to how to manage the NGs energy in the descent, to a very senior training captain with whom he was flying.
The reply given "you're in an airline now, this is not a training school......!" sends a chill down my spine.
And we could be exporting this sort of rubbish to the high-accident rate airlines.............................................?!?!
Last edited by BARKINGMAD; 9th Jul 2013 at 13:48.
I am sure he has never been in FLCH down to touchdown, quite rightly as that is not a mode you want to be in, but if you were to do that the autothrottle will not maintain speed in that mode if the pitch is manually increased to a pitch above the flight director command.
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Asiana Pilot Asked to Abort Landing Before Fatal Crash
1.5 seconds before impact ?
The request to abort the landing was captured on the cockpit voice recorder 1.5 seconds before the plane crashed, said National Transportation Safety Board chairwoman Deborah Hersman, who is leading the probe
Asked to abort ?1.5 seconds before impact ?
I just watched a great interview of Sully by Bloomberg West TV on this accident.
Too Early for Blame in Air Crash, Sullenberger Says: Video - Bloomberg
Too Early for Blame in Air Crash, Sullenberger Says: Video - Bloomberg
Last edited by nitpicker330; 9th Jul 2013 at 13:50.
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First, my CONGRATULATIONS to Asiana214 cabin crew, they not only did an excellent job, the did the perfect evacuation by the book, 90 sec´s = everybody out. No questions on that.
Second, what happened we will see and learn from it, I´m the first one interested, but still nobody knows the chain of errors that lead to the crash. As a LTC I always have 3 extra set of eyes in my head looking around in and out, and another 3 extra set of ears for weird noises, my mind is already 15min ahead of the flight and my hands and feet are fully ready to take control if needed. It´s not nuclear physics....
Second, what happened we will see and learn from it, I´m the first one interested, but still nobody knows the chain of errors that lead to the crash. As a LTC I always have 3 extra set of eyes in my head looking around in and out, and another 3 extra set of ears for weird noises, my mind is already 15min ahead of the flight and my hands and feet are fully ready to take control if needed. It´s not nuclear physics....
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The crash in India of an A320 in the 90's was essentially caused by a trainee in the L seat being high on approach, setting "0" in the FCU Altitude window(MCP to a Boeing driver) and raising the nose as he acquired the Glide path manually, and then flying it into the ground when the thrust didn't come up. They had left one of the Flight Dir. switches on so the A/T was at idle in order to achieve "0" Altitude as commanded. I suspect we're looking at a similar set up.
Never set "0" altitude. It's a death wish.
When you go visual, flight dir. off then at least one on to ensure A/T is in speed mode.
Never set "0" altitude. It's a death wish.
When you go visual, flight dir. off then at least one on to ensure A/T is in speed mode.
suninmyeyes
Great explanation of the FLCH trap. This was alluded to in some earlier posts but you have summarised it beautifully.
Once demonstrated in the sim, it tends to stick.
It appears to be a very logical explanation of what happened here.
He went through the 500' gate on GS but with no energy and the arse fell out of his world as he sat there with hand on his 'airbus' throttles unperturbed.
What likely happened after that is a mix of many things but primarily inaction from the pnf for whatever reason.
The question here is if FLCH is being used by some carriers for rapid descent from a high and fast profile...why?
Great explanation of the FLCH trap. This was alluded to in some earlier posts but you have summarised it beautifully.
Once demonstrated in the sim, it tends to stick.
It appears to be a very logical explanation of what happened here.
He went through the 500' gate on GS but with no energy and the arse fell out of his world as he sat there with hand on his 'airbus' throttles unperturbed.
What likely happened after that is a mix of many things but primarily inaction from the pnf for whatever reason.
The question here is if FLCH is being used by some carriers for rapid descent from a high and fast profile...why?
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Sounds like there ought to be a moratorium on using FLCH below a certain altitude.
Come to think of it, is there ever any utility in allowing 000 input here? Can this by fixed at the automation level by Boeing to avoid letting other idiots get themselves into this same trap?
Clearly, FLCH seems a bad hack, not really intended for this stage in the flight.
Come to think of it, is there ever any utility in allowing 000 input here? Can this by fixed at the automation level by Boeing to avoid letting other idiots get themselves into this same trap?
Clearly, FLCH seems a bad hack, not really intended for this stage in the flight.
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Toruk, it could have been a lot of things, but one of the most telling features is that while (poor) efforts were evidently being made to correct the flightpath it appears that nothing whatsoever was done about airspeed and as no one deliberately lets airspeed drop and drop it probably - almost certainly - follows that it just wasn't being monitored - probably by either pilot.
Why? As a feasible suggestion there were two pilots well out of their comfort zones, one a new instructor in an unfamiliar seat, the other new to type and both maxed out focussing on trying to regain a botched profile and not realising/noticing/understanding the a/t mode wasn't managing the airspeed as they both assumed it would because "it always does".
If the FLCH works like Lvl Ch in a 737 it might not be unnatural to engage it to get yourself down fast when high on profile, and if the other guy was distracted and didn't notice, didn't read his FMAs or just like the PF lost awareness of the implications of doing this then they're in the "trap".
And, as they hadn't done the correct thing about the unstable approach 1000ft earlier...
Why? As a feasible suggestion there were two pilots well out of their comfort zones, one a new instructor in an unfamiliar seat, the other new to type and both maxed out focussing on trying to regain a botched profile and not realising/noticing/understanding the a/t mode wasn't managing the airspeed as they both assumed it would because "it always does".
If the FLCH works like Lvl Ch in a 737 it might not be unnatural to engage it to get yourself down fast when high on profile, and if the other guy was distracted and didn't notice, didn't read his FMAs or just like the PF lost awareness of the implications of doing this then they're in the "trap".
And, as they hadn't done the correct thing about the unstable approach 1000ft earlier...
Last edited by Agaricus bisporus; 9th Jul 2013 at 14:29.
The question here is if FLCH is being used by some carriers for rapid descent from a high and fast profile...why?
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stuckgear, sorry but I think you missed my point which was that there are many contributory factors to any accident. I was reacting to the "It was pilot's Asian culture, period. Everything else is fine." posts.
We actually agree, there *might* have been a conflict of "you can fly the darn thing can't you?" (environment) and "use the automatics. follow the rules." (operator) cultures that had a bearing here. Speculation only, no blame intended or apportioned.
cultural variations do exist, there's been quite few studies on the subject matter
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Capn Bloggs
[QUOTE][Quote:
The question here is if FLCH is being used by some carriers for rapid descent from a high and fast profile...why?
d/QUOTE]
You beat me to it! I too use FLCH regularly as it is the best way to descend and reduce speed. It is not yet a company SOP but I personally never use it below 3000 feet.
For the benefit of non 777 pilots
Normally in descent one transitions from FLCH to a different vertical mode, normally vertical speed or VNAV or glideslope or an alt capture, all of which will allow the autothrottle to fly the target speed. However on a visual approach like this one with a continuous descent there is nothing to transition to, so no natural prompt to come out of FLCH. And if the guys are maxxed out by being too high and fast and they have taken out the autopilot but left the flight director on then this is what can happen.
[QUOTE][Quote:
The question here is if FLCH is being used by some carriers for rapid descent from a high and fast profile...why?
d/QUOTE]
You beat me to it! I too use FLCH regularly as it is the best way to descend and reduce speed. It is not yet a company SOP but I personally never use it below 3000 feet.
For the benefit of non 777 pilots
Normally in descent one transitions from FLCH to a different vertical mode, normally vertical speed or VNAV or glideslope or an alt capture, all of which will allow the autothrottle to fly the target speed. However on a visual approach like this one with a continuous descent there is nothing to transition to, so no natural prompt to come out of FLCH. And if the guys are maxxed out by being too high and fast and they have taken out the autopilot but left the flight director on then this is what can happen.
Last edited by suninmyeyes; 9th Jul 2013 at 14:44.
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So, one possible scenario is "the FLCH trap" compounded by a total disregard of the "safeguards" of the Stabilised Approach criteria?
Still leaves a huge blank in the 'Why' box. Will we ever know the 'Why', I wonder?
Still leaves a huge blank in the 'Why' box. Will we ever know the 'Why', I wonder?
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He got low and slow...and like many unobstructed approaches he might have wanted to bring it in flat to put it on the numbers.
Whatever the case, in these cases, I keep asking...'so what was the other pilot doing while this was going on?'.
Guys keep pushing for crew ops, crm, ect and these scenarios keep illustrating how a co-captain/copilot will just sit there and watch the other guy fly it to the scene of the accident.
Whatever the case, in these cases, I keep asking...'so what was the other pilot doing while this was going on?'.
Guys keep pushing for crew ops, crm, ect and these scenarios keep illustrating how a co-captain/copilot will just sit there and watch the other guy fly it to the scene of the accident.
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Still leaves a huge blank in the 'Why' box. Will we ever know the 'Why', I wonder?
Four of them too, for added measure.
Last edited by ross_M; 9th Jul 2013 at 14:45.
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falcon900
Whilst I am in agreement with the general thrust of the "consensus" which seems to be emerging in relation to this incident, I am struck by the apparent willingness to overlook the implications of the runway navigation aids being inoperative. In an industry which has such an impressive safety record, and where it is the general practice to duplicate or triplicate critical systems where practicable, is it really acceptable to say "sorry, we are remodelling, hope it doesn't inconvenience customers too much?"
Whilst acknowledging the issue presented by pilots becoming over dependent on computers, there seems to be a tacit acceptance that this flight would have landed without incident had the navigation aids been operational. Given that the issue of overdependence on computers is ongoing and real, does it not follow that turning off the runway navigation aids could only result in significantly higher risk? Factor in long haul heavy traffic approaching over water at the end of a long flight, is it not a risk too far? This is not a minor airport in some third world country...
Whilst acknowledging the issue presented by pilots becoming over dependent on computers, there seems to be a tacit acceptance that this flight would have landed without incident had the navigation aids been operational. Given that the issue of overdependence on computers is ongoing and real, does it not follow that turning off the runway navigation aids could only result in significantly higher risk? Factor in long haul heavy traffic approaching over water at the end of a long flight, is it not a risk too far? This is not a minor airport in some third world country...
There were times when I thought the US were operating to third world standards.
As falcon has said, lots of points on the thread are valid. But, but, but - a place like SFO should have their aids working. It's San Francisco Airport - not Hinton-in-the-Hedges.
Last edited by Aileron Drag; 9th Jul 2013 at 14:47.
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so the holes all starting to line up..picking out from the more sensible posts on here...fatigue, power distance, finger trouble, FLCH etc, but no real clues how/why they were so distracted to not notice the speed decay until way too late.
Where they looking out the window at the aircraft on 28R, distracted by the f/o in the jump seat or what ?
Hopefully the CVR will reveal some answers or at least a few pointers.
Where they looking out the window at the aircraft on 28R, distracted by the f/o in the jump seat or what ?
Hopefully the CVR will reveal some answers or at least a few pointers.