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Asiana flight crash at San Francisco

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Asiana flight crash at San Francisco

Old 9th Jul 2013, 22:43
  #1261 (permalink)  
 
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No tests - no requirement. Fact v suspicion

From listening to what and how it was discussed, it didn't seem that she was implying that the crew refused a test.
If the situation is that the law doesn't require one, or empower the authorities to request one of the crew, it may be a failing in the law that they were unable to eliminate the factor from their investigation. That doesn't necessarily hint at suspicion.

I would like it clarified though.
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Old 9th Jul 2013, 22:43
  #1262 (permalink)  
 
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Interesting photo of crash scene showing flight landing on runway with tail intact

Photo Du Jour: Asiana Flight 214 : SFist
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Old 9th Jul 2013, 22:43
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They were high out of 4000', in V/S with -1500 in the window. So no FLCH trap.
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Old 9th Jul 2013, 22:46
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[/RIGHT]
The throttles on all Boeing North airplanes have the same force requirements to move...
What is Boeing North? Everett built aircraft?
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Old 9th Jul 2013, 22:47
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And the PNF (confirmed PIC) now sounds more senior than "speculation".
Still, the PF has little hours on type.

And no testing. Post accident I never realized you could "refuse" ?
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Old 9th Jul 2013, 22:53
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td, what about the 'spool up' required on final?

Yes LW, the GA in the sim, or even when flight testing, rely on a 'fling' effect, being at or above speed, not below speed.
I'm not sure what you mean about the 'spool up' required on final. Approach idle is designed to meet/exceed the mandated 8 second accel time. On a normal approach, it never comes into play because with gear and landing flaps, the airplane is so draggy that maintaining airspeed and glideslope requires above idle thrust.

Yes, the guys driving when we're doing flight testing are good stick and rudder - and airspeed is generally spot on. Being 20 or 30 knots slow would certainly affect the go-around performance - short of a sim session I'm not sure how to quantify that. But, I do know that on a twin, after they push TOGA and those engines spool up, the airplane accelerates and climbs fast (I'm generally standing behind the observers seat - I make damn sure I'm hanging on to something)!
According to the reports, someone on the flight deck verbalized 'airspeed' 7 seconds prior to impact. My point is that, had they performed the go-around and firewalled the throttles then, rather than 5.5 seconds later, I doubt there would have been an impact and we wouldn't be having this discussion.
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Old 9th Jul 2013, 22:54
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Interesting that she also made a point of saying that the "Instructor Pilot" (PNF) asserted that he was the PIC. Interesting in that they are exploring the relationships between the three flight deck crew.
I would certainly expect the instructor pilot to be PIC if the captain under training had not completed IOE (or OE as it is now called) on the Triple. At least that's how it works in the U.S. in my experience.

Maybe my previous post about possibly transitioning from a low erroneous computed FMS path to a higher real world PAPI was too technical, it seems to have disappeared.

Now it looks like the situation was the opposite, high and fast with 180 knots to 5 miles, V/S 1500 fpm down to get on the PAPI. Then A/T off (but still armed), back to idle presumably. Nose up, but power still back when the PAPI's go red...

For a non-pilot I think Debbie Hersman is doing a terrific job of explaining the findings and the technical aspects of the automation and warnings.
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Old 9th Jul 2013, 22:57
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Well Mr Learmount has come out with a video analysis on FI, "the facts so far" but for some reason has them flying an approach to 28 Right. I thought the clearance was always 28L

VIDEO: Asiana crash ? the facts so far

Last edited by flite idol; 9th Jul 2013 at 22:58.
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Old 9th Jul 2013, 23:01
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Originally Posted by JamesGV
Still, the PF has little hours on type.
I am so sick of hearing how little B777 time the Flying Pilot had.

It has almost nothing to do with this accident. Ever hour of every day somewhere in the world a pilot is checking out in a new aircraft type. Do you honestly think that those pilots are dangerous and likely to have an accident?

This "Inexperienced pilot" had 10,000 hours! He probably had months of B777 Classroom and Simulator experience. He was Type-Rated on the B777 and was now doing his series of Line Indoctrination flights on this new type

How much more experience do you think he needed before he should be allowed near a B777?

Last edited by Lost in Saigon; 9th Jul 2013 at 23:02.
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Old 9th Jul 2013, 23:06
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Instructor on his first flight as such... That's a factor!
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Old 9th Jul 2013, 23:10
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Instructor on his first flight as such... That's a factor!
But still an experienced (3000hr on type) 777 pilot who you would expect not to allow such a situation to develop.

Last edited by Back at NH; 9th Jul 2013 at 23:10.
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Old 9th Jul 2013, 23:12
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What is Boeing North? Everett built aircraft?
Boeing North is 'heritage' Boeing - as vs. those made by McDonald Douglas (which are technically 'Boeing' airplanes since the merger). Basically anything that starts with a '7', err, aside from the 717 .

Last edited by tdracer; 10th Jul 2013 at 00:24.
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Old 9th Jul 2013, 23:12
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Not judging at all, but he was inexperienced as instructor.
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Old 9th Jul 2013, 23:20
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Originally Posted by Sydy
Instructor on his first flight as such... That's a factor!
Originally Posted by Sydy
Not judging at all, but he was inexperienced as instructor.
Why is that a factor? Have you ever been a training pilot? A new training pilot is likely to be very conservative. That would make an accident LESS likely.

Last edited by Lost in Saigon; 9th Jul 2013 at 23:22.
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Old 9th Jul 2013, 23:26
  #1275 (permalink)  
 
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If the plane is in the US, the crew should be subject to the same post crash checks as a US based crew.
As NTSB mentioned, U.S.-registered airlines operate under Part 121 of the FAA regs, while foreign airlines operating into the U.S. operate under Part 129 of the FAA regs. Most simply stated, Part 129 kicks things back to regs of the foreign airline's country, which may not (and often don't) mirror the FAA's regs. Under Korean regs, the crew may not have been required to submit for post-accident testing.
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Old 9th Jul 2013, 23:34
  #1276 (permalink)  
 
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:
As NTSB mentioned, U.S.-registered airlines operate under Part 121 of the FAA regs, while foreign airlines operating into the U.S. operate under Part 129 of the FAA regs. Most simply stated, Part 129 kicks things back to regs of the foreign airline's country, which may not (and often don't) mirror the FAA's regs. Under Korean regs, the crew may not have been required to submit for post-accident testing.
I understand that the law may exempt that, what I meant by should is that I don't believe that this is a good idea, nor particularly logical, given that the accident location is more important than the operator's base.
I can see how from an FAA point of view, they would have an interest in having US based crews tested post-crash overseas, but I don't see that in order to get that situation they would have to give up the right to test overseas crews in the US post-crash.
I assume if there was any indication of inebriation that the police could demand a test, as opposed to some FAA regulation, correct?
Arguably, flying a servicable aircraft into a seawall in perfect weather could constitute 'reasonable suspicion' for a San Fran police officer, even just to eliminate it as a factor.
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Old 9th Jul 2013, 23:45
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Basic Pilot Skills

Hi Folks,
I can make no real judgement as to the Air Asiana B777 accident at SFO.
However, I feel as a general practice throughout the whole Airline Industry, the use of Auto Pilot & other Automatic systems is overtaking the Pilot's basic ability, to fly the aeroplane. You can so easily forget some of the monitoring, when the Automatics are in control. Yes, modern aircraft are designed to make a great deal of use of all Automatic systems, but I suggest, this leads to a degredation of the old, hand flying skills. Many of the airfields I operated into, basically called for a hand flown 100% manual approach, very good practice & good fun as well.
Yes, by all means use the Automatics, they are there to help you, but No one priority, has & always will be, fly the aircraft!
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Old 10th Jul 2013, 00:01
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Post #1249 by Mic Dundee

If you don't want to scroll though 65 pages of opinions, thoughts and a few rather useless postings on this topic please read the detailed post #1249 by Mic Dundee.
This sums up very accurately the situation that has existed in Korea for many years and unless someone can come up with a way to change 3,000 years of what could be described as a "cultural gradient" then accidents and incidents of this nature will continue.
An airline can give their pilots CRM courses but unless the techniques given in these courses are adopted then there is little hope for change.
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Old 10th Jul 2013, 00:04
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I assume if there was any indication of inebriation that the police could demand a test, as opposed to some FAA regulation, correct?
Since they crashed they haven't even gone through customs yet so technically the crew is not in the country legally at that exact moment so jurisdiction would fall under the INS, not the local police. I assume processing them through customs was one of the first things that was done once the emergency health issues were straightened out.

It would an interesting question as to whether the state or federal government would assert jurisdiction if any criminal charges (such as manslaughter) were to be filed. I suspect that INS would defer to the San Fran police because of their expertise but who knows...
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Old 10th Jul 2013, 00:08
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FARs

In order to implement, and enforce (let alone enforce in anything approaching a systematic way) post-accident testing regimen on foreign-certificated air transport carrier crews, would there not need to be some emendation, or alteration or revision or amendment, to the governing international agreements, such as the Chicago Convention (1944) or others? Alternatively, consider a hypothetical in which mishaps substantially similar or parallel in their essential probable cause roots occur with significant frequency (that is, lack of hand flying, horribly botched CAVOK approach, insufficient time in type, cockpit culture of obsequiousness - some or all of these), all foreign-certificated air carriers. Would Congress pass, and would the president sign, legislation creating (or expanding, if it is said to exist already) federal jurisdiction for law enforcement purposes relative to safety of air transport operations? Staff the NTSB Go Team with federal Marshals and the civilian equivalent of Judge Advocates. Require every airport with an FAA facility to enter into a MOU (Memorandum of Understanding) requiring local law enforcement to impound the crew until chain of custody testing can be federally overseen and administered. They fly into U S of A airspace, swear 'em into the union, test 'em, without fail, just like we do to our own. I could write this legislation in a week; getting it passed, and getting the president to sign it....."Priceless" --
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