Dutch TV reports on 'Ryanair pilots denominated alarm over safety'
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We are back to the concept of perception. There are many low experienced captains in RYR who have been born & bred within that culture. I can only imagine what the command course has to say about fuel in its training. These guys have not been round the block. From asking senior F/O's, in various airlines, "what fuel we should take?" I've often received a mix of blank stares, "the captain always decides", or some finger in the wind calculation. The education was not there to make a reasoned choice, nor was it encouraged. It is easy to say "take what you want, just justify it." That is the correct culture, but you have to have the gumption, experience and courage to make those decisions. That's what you are paid for; correct decisions. Is that the case in your company? If the airlines are now going to upgrade captains with less experience than was common for an FO hiring some years ago they need a very in-depth command course with many 'what if' scenario discussions. They will not have seen too much in their 4 years. A classroom discussion is better than nothing. That is, of course, if the command course is given by one of the 'old farts' who have seen quite a lot of it. There's more to being a captain than an ace at SOP's.
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Not many "old farts" doing the training in Ryanair these days (probably all gone to Emirates). Check out the link below from the careers section of the Ryanair website and see how rapidly guys are promoted to a training position.
then:-
500 hours PIC in Ryanair can be as little as 6 months.
Here's the link in full - judge for yourselves.....
Careers in travel - Pilot Recruitment
I joined Ryanair in 2003 as a cadet with a total time of 200 hours........
After upgrading and achieving 500 PIC hours on type I applied for a Type Rating Examiner (TRE) position. I am now a Type Rating Instructor/Type Rating Examiner and a Line Training Captain
Here's the link in full - judge for yourselves.....
Careers in travel - Pilot Recruitment
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In my eyes, the KRO reporter looked a complete ****. Firstly, he assumed that his facts were correct. His first stumbling block was the (30 minutes) final reserve fuel. It has to be there only before departure. It can be burnt. If it looks like you are going to burn it, you declare an emergency. The RYR guys in question did just that. As for extra fuel, it generally only ever extends the holding time. It's a commercial risk, not a safety one. It's the job of the pilots to manage these risks. As for the fuel league tables, who knows? If they are for fuel burnt (which I suspect they are are), then again MOL scores a point. If they are about carrying extra fuel, then that's different but again, is that a safety issue? It's only when guys are fired as a result of being on the wrong end of a table that it becomes a safety issue. Finally, you have to be very naive to believe MOL would accept anybody's word that the guys in the darkened rooms were his pilots. You can not publicly criticise MOL AND keep your job.
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In my eyes, the KRO reporter looked a complete ****. Firstly, he assumed that his facts were correct. His first stumbling block was the (30 minutes) final reserve fuel. It has to be there only before departure. It can be burnt.
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Finally, you have to be very naive to believe MOL would accept anybody's word that the guys in the darkened rooms were his pilots. You can not publicly criticise MOL AND keep your job.
The interviewer missed a trick there and didn't even ask about him.
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Squawk-7600 we always seem to go round in circles on this! MOL is technically correct - there is no 'legal requirement' to have reserve fuel on landing. As many have said, it is a 'legal requirement' to load it before departure. Why not actually read and quote 1.375 (see ii 2 below)? There you can see that is is a 'legal requirement' to manage the fuel en-route so as to 'expect' to land with a minimum of reserves, BUT if things go wrong, you declare an emergency, and then quite 'legally' you will land with what you have. No-one yet has found a way to fill up RyanAir 737s in flight.
1.375 b 2
2. however, if, as a result of an in-flight fuel check, the expected usable fuel remaining on arrival at the destination aerodrome is less than:
(i) the required alternate fuel plus final reserve fuel, the commander must take into account the traffic and the operational conditions prevailing at the destination aerodrome, at the destination alternate aerodrome and at any other adequate aerodrome, in deciding whether to proceed to the destination aerodrome or to divert so as to perform a safe landing with not less than final reserve fuel, or
(ii) the final reserve fuel if no alternate aerodrome is required, the commander must take appropriate action and proceed to an adequate aerodrome so as to perform a safe landing with not less than final reserve fuel;
The underlined are the 'legal requirements' in flight. In ii the 'appropriate action' includes an emergency declaration. Can we put this one to bed now?
1.375 b 2
2. however, if, as a result of an in-flight fuel check, the expected usable fuel remaining on arrival at the destination aerodrome is less than:
(i) the required alternate fuel plus final reserve fuel, the commander must take into account the traffic and the operational conditions prevailing at the destination aerodrome, at the destination alternate aerodrome and at any other adequate aerodrome, in deciding whether to proceed to the destination aerodrome or to divert so as to perform a safe landing with not less than final reserve fuel, or
(ii) the final reserve fuel if no alternate aerodrome is required, the commander must take appropriate action and proceed to an adequate aerodrome so as to perform a safe landing with not less than final reserve fuel;
The underlined are the 'legal requirements' in flight. In ii the 'appropriate action' includes an emergency declaration. Can we put this one to bed now?
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You forgot to underline some minor details BOAC:
So don't land with less than final reserve fuel! I don't see how that makes final reserve usable from an inflight fuel planning point of view, or how it makes the reporter incorrect.
There thus is a legal requirement to land with final reserve intact, in both cases.
perform a safe landing with not less than final reserve fuel
perform a safe landing with not less than final reserve fuel
There thus is a legal requirement to land with final reserve intact, in both cases.
Last edited by 737Jock; 24th Jan 2013 at 07:59.
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737jock - I do not understand your point. You have (you say) been flying long enough to know that however many nasty grabbing lawyers are circling, sh*t does happen and you can do NOTHING about it providing you have taken the appropriate action.
How do you propose, 'legally', to ENSURE final reserve will always be there whatever happens? Of course it is 'useable' - whatever is the point of carrying it if you cannot 'use it' when you need to? You might as well stick on another 1000kg of load and carry no reserve. You are not allowed to 'plan' to use it. You have lost me.
How do you propose, 'legally', to ENSURE final reserve will always be there whatever happens? Of course it is 'useable' - whatever is the point of carrying it if you cannot 'use it' when you need to? You might as well stick on another 1000kg of load and carry no reserve. You are not allowed to 'plan' to use it. You have lost me.
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Hello BOAC, thank you for providing that information. The section you quoted provides the action to be taken in the event of a specific scenario (the calculated useable fuel on landing, at the nearest adequate aerodrome where a safe landing can be performed, is less than final reserve fuel). Can you also now please advise where in EU-OPS it states that the declared emergency overrides the requirements you pointed out, instead of merely that the aircraft is not complying with their requirements? Point 2 states "However if, as a result ...", does the requirement to declare an emergency also begin with a similar "However if as a result ...."?
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Can you also now please advise where in EU-OPS it states that the declared emergency overrides the requirements you pointed out, instead of merely that the aircraft is not complying with their requirements?
Point 2 states "However if, as a result ...", does the requirement to declare an emergency also begin with a similar "However if as a result ...."?
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Let's try this chaps: In the air-- if you land with final reserve fuel, you do not have to advise anybody. However if you are going to land below your final reserve fuel you need to tell someone, so that they can factor that into their traffic planning,and hopefully get you down safely.
It appears to be different on the ground however, depending on what company you work for. The first sentence remains the same but the second reads, "if you continue to land with more fuel than final reserve, then you will be invited to talk to someone about your poor fuel planning and being at the wrong end of the fuel ladder".
The Pilots V Accountants, or Safety V Money debate as some see it, has been ongoing for decades but it seems that in the present climate, driven by the ultra low cost airlines, we have almost reached the tipping point. Passenger comfort has disappeared off into the distance, only erosion into safety is left.
It appears to be different on the ground however, depending on what company you work for. The first sentence remains the same but the second reads, "if you continue to land with more fuel than final reserve, then you will be invited to talk to someone about your poor fuel planning and being at the wrong end of the fuel ladder".
The Pilots V Accountants, or Safety V Money debate as some see it, has been ongoing for decades but it seems that in the present climate, driven by the ultra low cost airlines, we have almost reached the tipping point. Passenger comfort has disappeared off into the distance, only erosion into safety is left.
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I finally took he effort to look at the two KRO video's since there was a sort-a-like cut/paste version broadcasted yesterday on commercial telly here in Belgium (VTM - not really cataloged as a quality station 
)
Anyhow , - as non pilot - I must say that after reading this thread I'm personnaly more disturbed about the ethics in RY than the fuel policy (which is a indirect results).
I'm a IT contractor, the difference between the contracting pilot @ RY is that they are forced in this way of worked, compared to me, it was a free a deliberate choice. All the hassle of running your own company, paperwork & deadlines for filling TAX reports etc.. might be exaggerated, although it does bring up some stress, and a pilot should be stress free (well at least before taking off). As a contractor I'm also paid by the performed working hour, my current customer is about 1H30 drive (one way), and when i'm sick, i'll stay at home, just in order not to risk anything. Since being in a hospital is "no pay", and it sure hell won't be for a few days.
I was going to book my regular annual trip from BRU to FAO ; but when hell brake loose about RY it made me thinking. I'm replanning my trip and thinking of choosing TAP for AMS -> LIS ; hoping that the pressure on pilots isn't there. (wishfull thinking?)
Do you guys experience that kind of "RY" pressure (bullying, intimidation, etc..) at your workfloor, and would you ever fly a plain when feeling not like it ? Or is this the broadcast a complete set-up and are RY pilots free to fly as like a "premium" airline ?
)Anyhow , - as non pilot - I must say that after reading this thread I'm personnaly more disturbed about the ethics in RY than the fuel policy (which is a indirect results).
I'm a IT contractor, the difference between the contracting pilot @ RY is that they are forced in this way of worked, compared to me, it was a free a deliberate choice. All the hassle of running your own company, paperwork & deadlines for filling TAX reports etc.. might be exaggerated, although it does bring up some stress, and a pilot should be stress free (well at least before taking off). As a contractor I'm also paid by the performed working hour, my current customer is about 1H30 drive (one way), and when i'm sick, i'll stay at home, just in order not to risk anything. Since being in a hospital is "no pay", and it sure hell won't be for a few days.
I was going to book my regular annual trip from BRU to FAO ; but when hell brake loose about RY it made me thinking. I'm replanning my trip and thinking of choosing TAP for AMS -> LIS ; hoping that the pressure on pilots isn't there. (wishfull thinking?)
Do you guys experience that kind of "RY" pressure (bullying, intimidation, etc..) at your workfloor, and would you ever fly a plain when feeling not like it ? Or is this the broadcast a complete set-up and are RY pilots free to fly as like a "premium" airline ?
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...are RY pilots free to fly as like a "premium" airline?
In return, some of RYR pilots are the best paid pilots in the world. Those on the older contracts will receive in the order of €130,000 to €150,000 this year. Out of this they have to arrange their own tax, pension, car parking, accommodation, medical, licence, uniform, meals (at work) etc. They will also have a stable roster pattern and have a degree certainty in their lives. I'll also stick my neck out and suggest that they some of the most competent pilots as well, which can be demonstrated by their record.
However, I'd prefer to walk than fly Ryanair. I don't like MOL and what he stands for. So I do what MOL does and that is, not fly RYR but instead go with another carrier.
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"In return, some of RYR pilots are the best paid pilots in the world. Those on the older contracts will receive in the order of €130,000 to €150,000 this year."
I really don't think so. As you yourself said there is NO company or state pension, sick pay, holiday pay, hotel provided, transport provided: you pay for your sim checks & do unpaid SBY's away from home etc. etc. Friends on the inside say there has been no pay rise for 5 years and current contract rates have gone down. Hours are not guaranteed and so income fluctuates wildly. These stated facts, even some by yourself, contradict your other statement. Your only mitigating circumstance is if that quoted gross figure is net, which it is not; and it also assumes 900hrs/pa, which I doubt very few do any where near, especially as 40% of the fleet is grounded every winter. Then with those sums perhaps you have enough funds to pay all the costs.
I really don't think so. As you yourself said there is NO company or state pension, sick pay, holiday pay, hotel provided, transport provided: you pay for your sim checks & do unpaid SBY's away from home etc. etc. Friends on the inside say there has been no pay rise for 5 years and current contract rates have gone down. Hours are not guaranteed and so income fluctuates wildly. These stated facts, even some by yourself, contradict your other statement. Your only mitigating circumstance is if that quoted gross figure is net, which it is not; and it also assumes 900hrs/pa, which I doubt very few do any where near, especially as 40% of the fleet is grounded every winter. Then with those sums perhaps you have enough funds to pay all the costs.
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Ryanair legal department will have a busy time with television programmes which are telling things FR does not like.
Besides the KRO Reporter programmes Belgium commercial station VTM broadcasted a shortened version of the KRO Reporter programme. I guess they will get a letter from the Ryaniar lawyer as well.
See a small preview here
Mayday, Ryanairvlucht in nood | VTM
Since November 2012 there have been tv programmes mentioning the business model of Ryanair in Germany (WDR), The Netherlands (KRO), Belgium (VTM) , France and Spain (LaSexta).
Besides the KRO Reporter programmes Belgium commercial station VTM broadcasted a shortened version of the KRO Reporter programme. I guess they will get a letter from the Ryaniar lawyer as well.
See a small preview here
Mayday, Ryanairvlucht in nood | VTM
Since November 2012 there have been tv programmes mentioning the business model of Ryanair in Germany (WDR), The Netherlands (KRO), Belgium (VTM) , France and Spain (LaSexta).
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RAT 5
You are confusing Ryanair pilots with Brookfield or other contract pilots that fly for Ryanair and there is a huge difference.
Ryanair UK pilots receive sick pay, holiday pay, sector pay on holiday days and have pension contributions matched by the company up to £5000 per year.
We also get £5000 a year for incidental expenses - parking, uniform cleaning etc and do not have to pay for the sim.
This is vastly different to the contract pilots who only receive payment per flying hour.
You are confusing Ryanair pilots with Brookfield or other contract pilots that fly for Ryanair and there is a huge difference.
Ryanair UK pilots receive sick pay, holiday pay, sector pay on holiday days and have pension contributions matched by the company up to £5000 per year.
We also get £5000 a year for incidental expenses - parking, uniform cleaning etc and do not have to pay for the sim.
This is vastly different to the contract pilots who only receive payment per flying hour.
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Depone, my situation is typical of a pilot that is employed by Ryanair. It is not typical of a pilot working at Ryanair but employed by an agency.
Just to clarify, at Ryanair there are two pilot groups. One group are employed by Ryanair, have employee privileges and are in a minority. The other group - the majority are employed as contractors through Brookfield etc and only get paid by the flying hour.
This is not a situation I agree with and only posted on here to give further insight into why some pilot are perfectly happy flying for Ryanair and others are not.
Just to clarify, at Ryanair there are two pilot groups. One group are employed by Ryanair, have employee privileges and are in a minority. The other group - the majority are employed as contractors through Brookfield etc and only get paid by the flying hour.
This is not a situation I agree with and only posted on here to give further insight into why some pilot are perfectly happy flying for Ryanair and others are not.