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Old 24th Dec 2012, 19:23   #201 (permalink)

 
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I understand/understood that the philosophy of the TWAswitches was: (wait for it)

all the switches were forward for takeoff...everything that needed to be "ON" was forward pointing towards the nose

it makes alot of sense if looked at that way.

TWA was really a pioneer as Pan Am...My TWA interview was the most thorough of any. Discussing windshear scenarios and the then recent DC9 fire with landing at CVG. They have my respect...indeed while flying back home from my TWA interview I sat next to a very nice TWA captain in civies...we talked flying including the book, 'Handling the Big Jets" by davies. He told me that TWA issued it to all pilots...how many airlines did that? He also told me he was called into the chief pilot's office because he landed at Vref plus 21 knots due to wind in KPHL. Chief pilot said, next time divert.

The REAL TWA has Lindbergh in its heritage...he test flew one of the first DC2's out of the highest airport on the route (cheyene I think)...he cut the switches without warning on one engine at or near what we now call V1...the douglas pilot yelled at him "WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING"...Lindbergh said, our pilots will fly it here on bad days and nights and an engine failure will be without warning.

they made it around the patch just fine thank you.


And dear non pilot poster concerning yourself witht the boob talk vs the tragedy of the crash...well , we know people died in this crash...we really do. And if we dwelled on it, we wouldn't fly anymore. that' has been tradition since the earliest days of our profession...just check out old movies like, "only angels have wings" and the like.

And I hope you do.

no disrespect is meant to the lost ones...and it is pretty obvious to some of us that if someone had done things right, we wouldn't have this thread at all. But somewhere there was a shortcut.
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Old 24th Dec 2012, 21:17   #202 (permalink)
 
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It probably will be some time before we will get any more useful information about why this Lear crashed if ever. We are sorry good people were lost.

All of us want to learn from accidents so they are not repeated. We learned from the 727 crash out of LAX at night. We learned from the MD80's that took off with no flaps. We learned from the DC10 AA flight out of ORD. We learned from the AA Cali crash into terrain.

We learn from accidents and I feel we won't learn anything from this one but the pilots flying this flight might have learned how not to have had this accident if they had read and learned from these accident reports and more. The 20 year old probably flying probably hadn't read any of them.

Just my opinion but my whole career I put myself in their shoes and what I would do to not let it happen to me.

One year after the Swissair cockpit fire over Halifax where all were killed I had smoke throughout the B757 heading for Tegucigalpa, Honduras over the Florida Keys. Our checklist was to shut off nonessential busses and wait to see if the smoke diminished. I made it an immediate action item before the checklist even though it was not company procedure. Our company had not changed anything after their crash so I did. I declared an emergency and descended direct MIA and landed with fire trucks following us to the gate.

We still had smoke smell throughout the airplane but found out it was a galley oven short circuit causing the smell and possible fire. Two weeks later AA changed our check list to what I did after I submitted my report.

We left an hour later in another 757.
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Old 24th Dec 2012, 22:34   #203 (permalink)
 
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Pilots can learn a lot from other pilot misakes. We can read about them so we don't do them again. I loved flying airplanes no matter what size. Retiring with no incidents was from seeing how not to make the same mistakes others have. I don't think I would change anything I did in my career. I started out with little airplanes and ended up in big ones. Loved all of them. I just wish the big airplane pilots today could still hand fly. I know some still can but the rest worry me.
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Old 24th Dec 2012, 23:22   #204 (permalink)
 
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Has a bomb been ruled out in this accident?
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Old 25th Dec 2012, 00:00   #205 (permalink)
 
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Welllll, surely a bomb at altitude would spread bits all over the place, is it not reported that the debris field was quite small???.
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Old 25th Dec 2012, 12:11   #206 (permalink)
 
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Standby attitude indicator

BobM2:
Quote:
As I recall, the third or standby attitude indicator, powered from the battery buss, was added after UAL 266 & was mandated by FAA on all jet transports, not just 727s.
This 1965 Lear 23 accident was also a motivation for installing standby attitude instrumentation.
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Old 25th Dec 2012, 13:41   #207 (permalink)
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I know I have a bee in my bonnet about T&S indicators, but the above, and the 74' out of Stansted, and an medium weight jet transport, fairly near that time, all might well have been saved by a tied gyro.

Especially, if it had been fitted with a significant warning light to show full scale deflection.

What did they do? Removed them altogether.
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Old 25th Dec 2012, 13:45   #208 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Welllll, surely a bomb at altitude would spread bits all over the place, is it not reported that the debris field was quite small???.
f
I haven't seen any reports than could be considered reliable. It is Mexico and it is a remote area.
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Old 25th Dec 2012, 18:12   #209 (permalink)
 
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Sevenstrokeroll...your not paying attention to the light switches . When they are ON they aft and not pointing to the nose. So much for that theory!
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Old 25th Dec 2012, 23:39   #210 (permalink)
 
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Question

Quote:
It probably will be some time before we will get any more useful information about why this Lear crashed if ever. We are sorry good people were lost.
You got me thinking. Do the Mexican authorities make aircraft accident reports public?

Reason asking is that I saw one of my students airplane sitting in the ACA sun one day in 2004, twisted, broken and just sad to watch. N55ES was the tail number. Never found out what happened.
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Old 26th Dec 2012, 04:07   #211 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
You got me thinking. Do the Mexican authorities make aircraft accident reports public?

Reason asking is that I saw one of my students airplane sitting in the ACA sun one day in 2004, twisted, broken and just sad to watch. N55ES was the tail number. Never found out what happened.
A picture of the wreckage next to a G-I carcass is here:

Photos: Lancair Lancair Super ES Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net

Quote:
They didn't move the essential power selector. It was the standby power they moved to the overhead.
Never heard of a separate standby power selector on the FE panel (I only flew -200's). The essential power selector was a wafer switch and standby power was one of the selections (along with APU, gens 1-3 and external) is this the one you are thinking of? The essential power selector panel had a red covered 'FAIL' light that Huck mentioned earlier, if you didn't find that brake interconnect on the ground when the power tripped off it could get exciting real fast.

Most, but not all, essential power selector switch knobs were yellow or white to help differentiate them from the very similar looking AC Meters switch (with the two generator paralleling lights).

Last edited by Airbubba; 26th Dec 2012 at 05:26.
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Old 26th Dec 2012, 13:30   #212 (permalink)
 
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Airbubba:

Quote:
Never heard of a separate standby power selector on the FE panel (I only flew -200's). The essential power selector was a wafer switch and standby power was one of the selections (along with APU, gens 1-3 and external) is this the one you are thinking of?
I assumed there was a separate standby switch on the F/E panel on the Boeing standard 727. I never saw the F/E panel of any non-TWA 727.

Our 727s had the F/E wafer switch but no standby power selection. TWA had standby power relocated to the pilot overhead panel with a red guard cover. Any of the three crewmembers could reach it.
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Old 26th Dec 2012, 19:34   #213 (permalink)

 
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Spooky 2 ...Heaven and EArth Horatio

spooky2...last time I checked you don't need the landing lights ON to takeoff. while nice to have at any time, landing lights (of the extend/retract type) are drag producers...the philosophy is that anything that slows you down is ...WAIT FOR IT>> LIKE pulling back on the reins of the old fashioned biological horse.

so, anything that slows you down, goes aft (one philosophy)...the flaps go aft..you slow down...the gear pulls out of its dent and then goes down...you slow down etc.

there are all sorts of neat philosophies in flying...the neatest yet wrongest was the way FRENCH PLANES had their throttles back in prehistoric times.. YOU PULLED THE THROTTLE AFT (not like a horse) TO GO TO MAX POWER...WHY?

well, you pull the stick back to go up (yeah right) and you pull the throttle back cuz you need more oomph to go up...therefore to go up...pull everything back.

Maybe that's why France surrendered to the ah crowd (adolf hitler crowd).

And maybe France still wants revenge and those darn airbussess........oh never mind.

so spooky, my philosopy lesson holds true...and you can see if the lights aren't on if you really need them at night...and during IMC, you might not want them on...and extendable ones during max perf takeoffs add drag...hmmmmm, oh those TWA/Howard Hughes types were pretty smart.
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Old 27th Dec 2012, 02:06   #214 (permalink)
 
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The Lear Jet crash since it was in Mexico and not an airliner will not get much attention. We probably won't get much more info than we already have. It doesn't rate a lot of attention down there. We will have to guess what caused it to crash. We all have our thoughts but who knows?
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Old 27th Dec 2012, 15:45   #215 (permalink)
 
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Since we are talking so much about differences in aircraft configuration, is there an FAA database that would tell which STC's, mods and certifications that this Lear would/should have?

Our pilot certificates and medicals are online for a prospective employer or pax to check, is there something similar for GA aircraft maintenance records?

Over on the part 121 side it seems to me that the feds have been increasingly obsessed with documentation. A missing signature or piece of paper that would formerly be handled with a sticky note from a secretary is now self-reported to the feds for a possible letter or worse.
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Old 27th Dec 2012, 23:08   #216 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
The Lear Jet crash since it was in Mexico and not an airliner will not get much attention. We probably won't get much more info than we already have. It doesn't rate a lot of attention down there. We will have to guess what caused it to crash. We all have our thoughts but who knows?
I know it's Mexico, but what authority conducts the post crash investigation? SCT?
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Old 27th Dec 2012, 23:17   #217 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
I know it's Mexico, but what authority conducts the post crash investigation? SCT?
Yes, SCT. The NTSB is assisting but the NTSB cannot release any information.

In any case, the NTSB has been suspect in a few of its own investigations.
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