Captain 'subdued' aboard JetBlue flight
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Expatsylvania
Posts: 179
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The question of criminal intent is going to have to be decided by a jury. This incident was too visible and too wacky not to result in an arrest. And they charged him with interfering with a flight crew, not a full-on charge of attempted hijacking.
And are "MLM" and "pyramid scheme" not interchangeable terms where you guys are from? Not that this is anything to hang him over or anything.
And are "MLM" and "pyramid scheme" not interchangeable terms where you guys are from? Not that this is anything to hang him over or anything.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Patterson, NY
Age: 66
Posts: 436
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The question of criminal intent? Where did that come from? The man was suffering from some kind of severe mental illness. There was no criminal intent involved.
Or do you know something no one else does?
Or do you know something no one else does?
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Expatsylvania
Posts: 179
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
All we REALLY know is that this guy tried to interfere with a flight crew. How do you know if he was mentally ill? You put him in custody and have doctors look at him. Until then, you treat him as the law dictates.
If this guy was a mental facility escapee off his meds, then yes, we could already make a determination that there was no criminal intent. This man has no history of such. Until a couple of days ago, this man was indistinguishable from any other captain on the line. Irrational violence and religious zealotry are not hallmarks of a healthy mind, but they are not mutually exclusive from criminal intent.
If this guy was a mental facility escapee off his meds, then yes, we could already make a determination that there was no criminal intent. This man has no history of such. Until a couple of days ago, this man was indistinguishable from any other captain on the line. Irrational violence and religious zealotry are not hallmarks of a healthy mind, but they are not mutually exclusive from criminal intent.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Patterson, NY
Age: 66
Posts: 436
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just because someone has no history of obvious mental illness does not give that person a clean bill of health. Can you always distinguish someone with mental illness from someone who is "normal"? No, you cannot.
Mental illness can manifest itself, overtly, in many ways. And sometimes in ugly ways.
Airbubba:
I found your comment about dietary supplements, such as those the Captain was supposedly involved in, interesting. And especially after watching a video of one of the passengers - ex NYPD I think - who was sitting in row 10C. He claims that there was a period of 15-20 minutes before he helped subdue the captain in which he observed the captain drinking copious amounts of water and exhibiting signs of "cotton mouth". I'm starting to wonder if perhaps the captain had imbibed in a bit too much of the wares he was trying to market? Who knows what the contents are of this dietary aid?
Mental illness can manifest itself, overtly, in many ways. And sometimes in ugly ways.
Airbubba:
I found your comment about dietary supplements, such as those the Captain was supposedly involved in, interesting. And especially after watching a video of one of the passengers - ex NYPD I think - who was sitting in row 10C. He claims that there was a period of 15-20 minutes before he helped subdue the captain in which he observed the captain drinking copious amounts of water and exhibiting signs of "cotton mouth". I'm starting to wonder if perhaps the captain had imbibed in a bit too much of the wares he was trying to market? Who knows what the contents are of this dietary aid?
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Expatsylvania
Posts: 179
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
First of all, the fact that he was part of a flight crew does not make it impossible for him to interfere with a flight crew. You may want to review the events aboard certain FedEx and Egyptair flights. And just to be clear, you're arguing that this man was so obviously NOT in control of his faculties that we have no right to arrest and charge him, but he WAS in control of the airplane at that moment. Sorry, but I would classify a captain declaring his refusal to complete the flight and determination to instead "take a leap of faith" (among other things) as abdication of command. If I'm in that cockpit, he's not the captain anymore, he's a threat to himself and others.
You may not be familiar with how the justice system works, but here you go:
A crime takes place. The police detain the people involved. If there is enough evidence that a crime took place and that a particular person is responsible for it, that person gets arrested and charged. He will then get his day in court. Insanity then becomes viable as a defense, if it can be demonstrated.
As it currently stands. this man has no background of mental illness at all. Legally, he must be treated based on what he did. Doctors are evaluating him RIGHT NOW to determine if he had criminal intent. If (more like "when") said doctors determine he is/was out of his mind, that evidence is entered and the case proceeds accordingly. And if they really wanted to throw the book at him, attempted hijacking carries a lot more weight than interfering with a flight crew.
Not to whack you over the head with the implications here, but this would not be the first guy in history who decided God wanted him to pull some funny business with an airplane. Are you proposing we make that an absolute defense from prosecution?
You may not be familiar with how the justice system works, but here you go:
A crime takes place. The police detain the people involved. If there is enough evidence that a crime took place and that a particular person is responsible for it, that person gets arrested and charged. He will then get his day in court. Insanity then becomes viable as a defense, if it can be demonstrated.
As it currently stands. this man has no background of mental illness at all. Legally, he must be treated based on what he did. Doctors are evaluating him RIGHT NOW to determine if he had criminal intent. If (more like "when") said doctors determine he is/was out of his mind, that evidence is entered and the case proceeds accordingly. And if they really wanted to throw the book at him, attempted hijacking carries a lot more weight than interfering with a flight crew.
Not to whack you over the head with the implications here, but this would not be the first guy in history who decided God wanted him to pull some funny business with an airplane. Are you proposing we make that an absolute defense from prosecution?
Last edited by thepotato232; 29th Mar 2012 at 18:47.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Patterson, NY
Age: 66
Posts: 436
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am proposing no such thing. From the reports of the captain's actions on the aircraft it should be apparent to anyone that here was a tortured soul who finally "went off the deep end", so to speak. His snapping did not happen overnight.
There was probably a progression of events within his mind, apparently noticed by no one, that led to this.
The problem I have is with some who, not knowing the underlying causes, simply label a person "criminal" when the intent of that person was anything but criminal. Perhaps in the captain's mind he really believed something which those of us who are considered "normal", scoff at. I have known a few people who are medicated schizophrenics. They are fine. Until they miss one of their doses. Then, the voices in the head start. And they really do believe someone is talking to their mind. For the observer, it's a very eerie experience.
For the victim, it is real. And if that voice in the head tells you that maybe it's a good idea to take that airplane you're flying down, then you do so. Regardless of the outcome.
There was probably a progression of events within his mind, apparently noticed by no one, that led to this.
The problem I have is with some who, not knowing the underlying causes, simply label a person "criminal" when the intent of that person was anything but criminal. Perhaps in the captain's mind he really believed something which those of us who are considered "normal", scoff at. I have known a few people who are medicated schizophrenics. They are fine. Until they miss one of their doses. Then, the voices in the head start. And they really do believe someone is talking to their mind. For the observer, it's a very eerie experience.
For the victim, it is real. And if that voice in the head tells you that maybe it's a good idea to take that airplane you're flying down, then you do so. Regardless of the outcome.
Psychophysiological entity
Airbubba said:
Sleeping Pills Side Effects Lawsuit
I was aware of this one. Along with the 300% increase in the chance of having an accident after using Zolpidem. Ambien I think is a slow release form of Zolpidem - an initial blast, and then a trickle. Just what you don't want for an 'early.'
From the lawyer's link. Frightening.
A few years ago a pilot that I know was very confused and combative in the crew lounge for a while after waking up from an Ambien fueled jetlag nap.
Sleeping Pills Side Effects Lawsuit
I was aware of this one. Along with the 300% increase in the chance of having an accident after using Zolpidem. Ambien I think is a slow release form of Zolpidem - an initial blast, and then a trickle. Just what you don't want for an 'early.'
From the lawyer's link. Frightening.
Ambien has been identified as one of the top 10 drugs found in impaired drivers, according to state toxicology laboratories.
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Expatsylvania
Posts: 179
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I at no time labeled this man a criminal. I labeled him a threat. I said that, given the facts of the case, the only rationally and legally sound choice is to arrest him and charge him pending the results of his psychiatric evaluation. When he is (almost certainly) determined to be of unsound mind when the crime took place, we may proceed from there.
I have spent enough time in the company of psychiatrists and the mentally ill to know that mental illness does terrible things to the people who have it, and they often have no means of determining real from fantasy or right from wrong. But this man is not a diagnosed schizophrenic. He has no history of hallucinations or violent outbursts I'm aware of. Prior to the events of that flight, he was (strictly legally speaking) a sane human being with a long history of rational action as a flight crew member.
The police haven't locked this man up and thrown away the key. They're doing their jobs so the psychiatrists can do theirs - determining if this proud and respected career pilot now suffers from a psychosis that has heretofore gone unnoticed in his private and professional lives. That is not a judgement I want anybody except medical professionals to make. And until they do, the police and the prosecutors have a job to do.
I have spent enough time in the company of psychiatrists and the mentally ill to know that mental illness does terrible things to the people who have it, and they often have no means of determining real from fantasy or right from wrong. But this man is not a diagnosed schizophrenic. He has no history of hallucinations or violent outbursts I'm aware of. Prior to the events of that flight, he was (strictly legally speaking) a sane human being with a long history of rational action as a flight crew member.
The police haven't locked this man up and thrown away the key. They're doing their jobs so the psychiatrists can do theirs - determining if this proud and respected career pilot now suffers from a psychosis that has heretofore gone unnoticed in his private and professional lives. That is not a judgement I want anybody except medical professionals to make. And until they do, the police and the prosecutors have a job to do.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
Posts: 5,898
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
The question of criminal intent is going to have to be decided by a jury. This incident was too visible and too wacky not to result in an arrest. And they charged him with interfering with a flight crew, not a full-on charge of attempted hijacking.
The question of criminal intent? Where did that come from? The man was suffering from some kind of severe mental illness. There was no criminal intent involved.
Or do you know something no one else does?
Or do you know something no one else does?
Captain Osborn does not have a union for support but JetBlue's CEO's positive statements to the media hopefully bode well for his future as he addresses the legal, medical, and administrative issues in his treatment and recovery.
I found your comment about dietary supplements, such as those the Captain was supposedly involved in, interesting. And especially after watching a video of one of the passengers - ex NYPD I think - who was sitting in row 10C. He claims that there was a period of 15-20 minutes before he helped subdue the captain in which he observed the captain drinking copious amounts of water and exhibiting signs of "cotton mouth". I'm starting to wonder if perhaps the captain had imbibed in a bit too much of the wares he was trying to market? Who knows what the contents are of this dietary aid?
I'd sure like to believe there is a miracle way to lose weight but I know I'm kidding myself if I fall for one of these periodic scams.
Take a look at the 'Body by Vi' sales pitch, it certainly doesn't seem to appeal to your medical knowledge or even to your intellect for that matter:
90 Day Challenge
Last edited by Airbubba; 29th Mar 2012 at 20:15.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Patterson, NY
Age: 66
Posts: 436
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Airbubba:
Not meaning to hijack this thread but when you think about it, all these miracle diet plans, dietary supplements, "amazing ways to lose weight fast", etc. are all scams. And many of these dietary supplements are not regulated by the FDA.
Thus some of the ingredients are, shall we say, dubious at best?
Delve down into the web site, via the link you provided, and find the page which shows the ingredients in some of these "miracles" of modern technology. I am always hesitant about anything which contains a "proprietary blend" of anything.
And especially when the ingredients of this proprietary blend are not listed.
Not meaning to hijack this thread but when you think about it, all these miracle diet plans, dietary supplements, "amazing ways to lose weight fast", etc. are all scams. And many of these dietary supplements are not regulated by the FDA.
Thus some of the ingredients are, shall we say, dubious at best?
Delve down into the web site, via the link you provided, and find the page which shows the ingredients in some of these "miracles" of modern technology. I am always hesitant about anything which contains a "proprietary blend" of anything.
And especially when the ingredients of this proprietary blend are not listed.
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
Looks like my original posts were wrong. I was merely suggesting that at the time we didn't know the facts. Now that we do (at least some of them), I can come down on the side of the F.O. doing the right thing.
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: New Zealand
Age: 67
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fireflybob asked
Probably not, half the country would be in the bin ...
" In UK people can be detained under the Mental Health Act - is there nothing similar in the USA?"
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: fort sheridan, il
Posts: 1,656
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
by the way guys, i think I was the one to mention this milkshake/diet supplement deal.
ephedra came to mind...and even more
can you imagine if he had a sinus problem and took sudafed/pseudopherin plus
a diet supplement that had something questionable in it...throw in a coffee
and a five hour energy shot and bam...
I think the govt charged the captain in order to keep him after the 72 hour psych
hold
ephedra came to mind...and even more
can you imagine if he had a sinus problem and took sudafed/pseudopherin plus
a diet supplement that had something questionable in it...throw in a coffee
and a five hour energy shot and bam...
I think the govt charged the captain in order to keep him after the 72 hour psych
hold
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: North America
Age: 64
Posts: 364
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
WanganuiLad - you are way off base !!!
As a proud U.S. citizen I am enraged by your wildly uninformed preposterous posting. What were you thinking 
?
Get your facts right; it would be well over the 50% number you referenced
.
Northbeach,
?
Probably not, half the country would be in the bin
Get your facts right; it would be well over the 50% number you referenced
.Northbeach,
Last edited by Northbeach; 29th Mar 2012 at 22:48.
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: us
Posts: 694
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Osbon's father was killed when the plane he was piloting crashed near Daytona Beach Florida on April 14, 1995. Plane ran out of fuel with right wing tanks empty and left wing tanks with adequate fuel.
N577M plane crash in FL details
The FO has been identified in the media as Jason Dowd of Salem Ohio.
N577M plane crash in FL details
The FO has been identified in the media as Jason Dowd of Salem Ohio.
I was just reading earlier this this week that polydipsia (excessive water consumption) is not uncommon is patients with schizophrenia. Of course, I have no idea what happened here, but that might be one way the facts could fit together.
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: America
Posts: 130
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Osbon's father was killed when the plane he was piloting crashed near Daytona Beach Florida on April 14, 1995. Plane ran out of fuel with right wing tanks empty and left wing tanks with adequate fuel.
CaptainProp
...."Nut case" as a general label perhaps a bit strong, but sounds to me like this statement is bang on....
...."Nut case" as a general label perhaps a bit strong, but sounds to me like this statement is bang on....
As a NON-devout Christian/republican/whatever-the-guy-was, it still strikes me as pathelogically obsessive about politics and religion to try and co-opt the incident into political statement (as the poster I responded to was) as if the guy's personal life or political views equate to causation just because they were apparent during his meltdown. It's even more obsessive to proclaim it represents some kind of new-scary "norm".
If you think that's "bang on", then perhaps you're one of those politically-obsessed bores yourself, or the kind of vehement anti-religious type who's so consumed with worry about other people going to church that it becomes a religion unto itself.
Last edited by PukinDog; 30th Mar 2012 at 02:44.
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Sydney Australia
Age: 50
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I feel sorry for both the pilot and the cabin crew member. The fact that social media and the functions to post stuff on the net prior to even landing is scary. I you tubed safety demo's and there was one where the purser had said 'In the likely event of cabin depressurization' - now on the net for the world to see.
There are thousands of people from all walks of life with mental and medical issues and are usually medicated. The FA case she apparently had not taken her meds.. for that to happen like it did she must not have had her meds for a few days..
The Captain should not have been annoyed about being locked out.. as there are ways to deal with situations like that (Wink Wink).. LOL I would have just taken a seat and enjoyed an inflight bevvy..
There are thousands of people from all walks of life with mental and medical issues and are usually medicated. The FA case she apparently had not taken her meds.. for that to happen like it did she must not have had her meds for a few days..
The Captain should not have been annoyed about being locked out.. as there are ways to deal with situations like that (Wink Wink).. LOL I would have just taken a seat and enjoyed an inflight bevvy..