Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

Captain 'subdued' aboard JetBlue flight

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

Captain 'subdued' aboard JetBlue flight

Old 29th Mar 2012, 08:21
  #101 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Juja Kenya
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Very terrible and unfortunate.
Were Erick is offline  
Old 29th Mar 2012, 09:02
  #102 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Up north
Posts: 1,660
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
@ PukingDog. The FBI report in the link quotes the Captain as talking about his church and needing to "focus". It then goes on quoting him saying "things just don't matter", "we need to take a leap of faith". He then spoke about sins in Vegas and stated "we are not going to Vegas".

According to a passenger interviewed by FBI he stated
"pray ******* now for Jesus Christ"
and then
"yelled jumbled comments about Jesus, September 11th, Iraq, Iran, and terrorists"
Mentally ill or not,

"devout Christian/conservative republican", pretty much indicates a nut case. I fly with lots of these types...generally ranting about Obama and harboring inordinate fears and pathological hatred of all Muslims and "liberals".
...."Nut case" as a general label perhaps a bit strong, but sounds to me like this statement is bang on....

Last edited by CaptainProp; 29th Mar 2012 at 09:17.
CaptainProp is offline  
Old 29th Mar 2012, 09:07
  #103 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 3,984
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Never mind the pros and cons of MLM (and please do not confuse legitimate MLM with Pyramid schemes and the like) what is relevant is why this individual had to think in terms of starting a home based business anyway.

We have seen Terms and Conditions for airline pilots drop to Victorian levels all over the world now. On top of that the Captain of an aeroplane is treated like a "worker drone in the collective" now - years ago pilots were treated with much respect and benefited therefore from considerable high self-esteem in the profession.

Last edited by fireflybob; 29th Mar 2012 at 13:39.
fireflybob is offline  
Old 29th Mar 2012, 09:29
  #104 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Up north
Posts: 1,660
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I guess it could just be that the guy wanted to do something else, something more, than just flying. I know a lot of guys making more than $200K / year flying but still have a business on the side, myself included. Some guys have their own little flying schools, some work extra as instructors for CAE/Flight Safety and other training organizations, some import stuff from china and sell over internet, arrange guided mountain tours, scuba dive instructors etc etc. For myself its not really about the money, it's about working with people, getting involved in something outside flying...
CaptainProp is offline  
Old 29th Mar 2012, 11:25
  #105 (permalink)  
ZFT
N4790P
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Asia
Age: 73
Posts: 2,278
Received 33 Likes on 9 Posts
Like most people here, can only comment on media reports, but a query. If the poor man was running up and down the cabin in an apparent aggravated state, why didn't a Sky Marshall (hopefully gently) intervene?
ZFT is offline  
Old 29th Mar 2012, 12:01
  #106 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: us
Posts: 694
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
ZFT, every flight doesn't have a Sky Marshall.
______________
From the New York Times,
A 2006 study by the F.A.A. of post-mortem toxicological evaluations of 4,143 pilots killed in accidents from 1993 to 2003 found that 223 were using mood-altering drugs like antidepressants, according to The Associated Press. Only 14 of the pilots who tested positive for the drugs reported a psychological condition on their medical forms, and only one reported using a mood-altering drug. None of the pilots determined to have used neurological medications had reported that on their medical forms, the AP reported.
I'll just note that the number of post-mortems seems high if all the accidents were plane crashes.
SaturnV is offline  
Old 29th Mar 2012, 12:17
  #107 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Aggregating some marginal gains.
Age: 46
Posts: 109
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
With numbers like that i can only assume that it takes all fatal air accidents (Comercial, Private and Military) from most if not all ICAO countries. 5% of 4000 fatalities is quite a few even for a 10 year period in regards to mental conditions/drug use.
2EggOmelette is offline  
Old 29th Mar 2012, 12:17
  #108 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Patterson, NY
Age: 66
Posts: 436
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I fail to see any correlation, whatsoever, between MLM and this captain: one has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with his actions.

Also, to state that one cannot be "normal" one day and then go off the deep end the next, is faulty thinking. It happens. And it happens on a daily basis to people who appear "normal" beforehand. Believe me, I know.

The warning signs were probably there all along. Either they were ignored or swept under the proverbial rug. But the day of reckoning was coming on like a homeward bound freight train. Most unfortunately, this freight train wrecked.

I do, however, see a correlation between this airline captain and his observed behavior and U.S. Army SSgt. Robert Bales. Both suffer from extreme forms of mental illness. And in the case of the airline captain, the outcome could have been a lot more extreme than the disaster created by SSgt. Bales.
rgbrock1 is offline  
Old 29th Mar 2012, 12:49
  #109 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Serenity
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
how do we KNOW that the F.O. was the sane and balanced one? All we have to go on is his word.
Well, that and an aircraft safely on the ground.
malr is offline  
Old 29th Mar 2012, 12:52
  #110 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Patterson, NY
Age: 66
Posts: 436
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
How do we know the F.O. was the sane and balanced one?

Because he's not the one who ran through the cabin telling passengers to pray to f***ing Jesus Christ and who rambled on about 9/11, Afghanistan, Iraq, the sins of Las Vegas, push the throttles to the stops, etc.

Also because the F.O. was the person who landed the aircraft and who had the wherewithal to ascertain the situation and remedy it.
rgbrock1 is offline  
Old 29th Mar 2012, 13:23
  #111 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: MD
Posts: 65
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Well now we know more about the incident and where and how it started if this
report is correct.

It seems he showed up late to work, missed the
pre-flight briefing and was incoherent prior to takeoff.
Isn't it a requirement that the captain a sign a flight dispatch release, which is a legal document, that among other things verifying his physical and mental health will allow him to successfully complete the flight?
iskyfly is offline  
Old 29th Mar 2012, 13:25
  #112 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Patterson, NY
Age: 66
Posts: 436
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I guess the other question is: if the Captain was perceived as being "incoherent" prior to take-off then why was the flight not halted immediately?
rgbrock1 is offline  
Old 29th Mar 2012, 13:38
  #113 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: fort sheridan, il
Posts: 1,656
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
regarding seling the diet milkshakes...

did it occur to any of you that he was using the product himself and somehow got a very low blood sugar causing this odd behavior? an aviation medical examiner from Chicago suggested that low blood sugar could cause this sort of behavior.

the captain showed up late to work...perhaps having missed a meal, replaced it with the diet shake and didn't know how it would affect him. some products have an energy boost chemical and might also cause a problem

the actual marketing of the shake doesn't matter. I went on a medically supervised fast and for the first three days I did not allow myself to fly. After my body had become use to the new levels I felt fine and flew.

as to the person mentioning signing a dispatch release....in the new order taking the airplane from the gate is the same thing as signing something.


back in the old days you would actually face to face with another airline employee who would sort of check you out in a casual way.
sevenstrokeroll is offline  
Old 29th Mar 2012, 14:23
  #114 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: America
Posts: 130
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
"....Same goes for the aviation industry and its security....."

Mixture:

Thanks for the long-winded security lecture, but as an ex-military pilot and retired Captain for a major airline I DO know a little about the industry
Murexway is offline  
Old 29th Mar 2012, 14:42
  #115 (permalink)  
Psychophysiological entity
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Tweet Rob_Benham Famous author. Well, slightly famous.
Age: 84
Posts: 3,274
Received 41 Likes on 21 Posts
So much of this case revolves around whether or not he was giving any indication of mental problems before that day. I have an intense interest in this sad case, no doubt because of my experiences as a F/O, and indeed years later as a captain.

I hesitate to go down memory lane on this one, it has caused me a lot of personal grief in more ways than one, but years ago as a training F/O, I carried a particular captain's problems around for months. I was told no one else would fly with him. Would I please carry on.

Months of being a captain without a command. Trying to do his job while doing mine, it was flattering at first, but things got so bad I started one report after another. Nothing was done. It's wrong to say no one listened, they did, but still did nothing. The last flight I did before my enraged departure was so simply off the scale madness, that if it was put in a novel, no one would believe it.

The respected captain that checked him out said to me, "I allowed the fact that he was an ex ******* ******* captain, to influence my decision."

The chief training captain said, "I knew this was coming."

Yet nothing was done.

Just imagine, half way between Barcelona and Palma - "Tell them I'm going visual."

Masses of protests from me, but then time taken up with trying to explain to ATC, things like why we were over Inca - having gone on a tour of the north end of the island, and why we were at 1,000'. And that wasn't a particularly bad day.

The final straw was Rome. "checks done?" "no, we've only just got a GPU." (APU busted.)

Then an engine started.

I was grabbing for the parking brake and calling atc as our girl rushed in and shouted there were passengers on the ventral stairs. Given it was a BAC 1-11, that was a tad more than he usually threw at me. God, how I wished I'd shut down and ordered the passengers to be offloaded.

What happened next would no doubt have backfired on me if anyone had given a damn.

Fuel looked normal. 8 tonnes, nothing in the middle. Acceleration was Morris Minor-like. I fire-walled the power about 1/3 way down the runway. No reaction from the 'captain'. We flew past one of Rome's most important monuments - at about the same height.

It was some moments later I saw a small amount of fuel in the middle tank. Over the next 20 mins it increased, until it was showing full. 3 tonnes overweight, and the temp chopped. Even the looooong climb brought no reaction from the left.

No reaction either, when he finally deigned to look at the tech log.

Usual lining up with the wrong airfield, and the double, double scotch on landing. He declined my offer of taxiing as we veered towards the edge of the taxiway - several times.

I prayed for the ground engineer to tell me the centre fuel dial was at zero. It was. Not having power fooled the system, and despite knowing that aircraft well, it certainly fooled me. No one could ever explain why the gauge took half an hour to read full.

42 years later, I still have all the paperwork for that flight - I had it in my hand when I was told to, "Stop! - you'll have to get yourself a QC, and say these things in high court if you want to talk about a captain like that."

Nearly 30 years after the event, a quite extraordinary chance meeting with the captain's old boss in ******* ******* said to me, "you can not tell me that man flew again." He seemed genuinely taken aback. "We tried to help him, but couldn't. Severe alcoholic. Possibly . . . " He'd lowered his voice, but I think, in fact I'm almost sure, I heard the word, psychotic.

If he had lost his license on medical grounds, my life would have been totally different.

To this day I don't understand. I don't understand people. If I've learned anything, it is that there is no standard human mind. Every single person on this planet can be affected by something. You can know someone all your life and then be stunned to find some hidden facet of their character that you wouldn't have believed possible. Sometimes, it's very hard to accept.

At the end of the day, it's a very, very fine line between what we call normal, and . . . something else.
Loose rivets is offline  
Old 29th Mar 2012, 15:03
  #116 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: us
Posts: 694
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Let's be clear.

The charging document (the criminal complaint) states
"Initially, he did not exhibit any bizarre behavior. [During climb-out from JFK], Osbon said something to the FO about being evaluated by someone; the FO was not sure what Osbon meant. Osbon talked about his church, and needing to "focus". Osbon asked the FO to take the controls and work the radios. Osbon began talking about religion, but his statements were not coherent...... Osbon yelled over the radio at air traffic control and instructed them to be quiet.
Nothing in that document indicates there was unusual behavior while the aircraft was at the gate, or prior to take-off.

Last edited by SaturnV; 29th Mar 2012 at 16:43.
SaturnV is offline  
Old 29th Mar 2012, 15:11
  #117 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: America
Posts: 130
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
As for the federal criminal charges, they're likely just a necessary means to hold him so that they can do a complete investigation. While the statements in the affidavit are all true, everyone realizes (at least to this point) that the guy probably lacked criminal intent. However, without actual charges being filed, he could legally walk out of the hospital and disappear and no one could stop him.
Murexway is offline  
Old 29th Mar 2012, 16:17
  #118 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 3,984
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
As for the federal criminal charges, they're likely just a necessary means to hold him so that they can do a complete investigation. While the statements in the affidavit are all true, everyone realizes (at least to this point) that the guy probably lacked criminal intent. However, without actual charges being filed, he could legally walk out of the hospital and disappear and no one could stop him.
In UK people can be detained under the Mental Health Act - is there nothing similar in the USA?
fireflybob is offline  
Old 29th Mar 2012, 16:36
  #119 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: America
Posts: 130
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Mental health holds vary by state - don't think there's a federal provision. In California it used to be section 5150, Florida has the Baker Act. But it's generally only a short hold - whatever is in the statute, 72 hours or so. Texas has a provision for brief psychiatric emergency holds, but I'm not sure for how long. And it can involve court hearings, medication administration, etc. In the case of a federal crime, a federal criminal complaint is faster and simpler.
Murexway is offline  
Old 29th Mar 2012, 17:51
  #120 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
Posts: 5,898
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
42 years later, I still have all the paperwork for that flight - I had it in my hand when I was told to, "Stop! - you'll have to get yourself a QC, and say these things in high court if you want to talk about a captain like that."
Decades later and across the pond things are quite different. The wacko cowboys who used to be tolerated by the airline are pretty much a thing of the past in U.S. flying from my observation. The Sky God captain concept is long gone and the PIC is more of a CYA manager and whipping boy (or girl).

Since the Buffalo commuter crash a few years ago, the feds seem to be coming down on those few folks who never passed their checkrides on the first try and were given endless training. Also, the 'loose cannons' and eccentrics are now under the microscope regardless of their seniority or seat.

A couple of examples of how these folks were tolerated in the past is contained in the accident reports for FedEx 705, the 1994 hijacking and FedEx 647 in 2003, one of the MEM landing accidents. Auburn Calloway, the hijacker, had exhibited bizzare behavior and had a very poor civilian and military employment record prior to joining FedEx. The FO on FDX 647 had a dismal training history and a couple of FAA 609 (now 709) rides prior to being hired and continued training difficulties after employment.

In the past, a small handful of these folks would be carried and both the company and the union would look the other way as they continuously failed training, missed trips and had issues with coworkers.

Recently things seem to be changing. The feds are busting folks who have been captains for years and could only seem pass their checkrides after several extra sims and with the 'right' evaluator. Folks who act oddly are more likely to be approached by the union's professional standards committee to see if they need help or time off. However, as mentioned on another post, if a male pilot chooses to sometimes wear women's clothes it must now be considered 'normal' since it is a 'gender identity issue'.

regarding seling the diet milkshakes...

did it occur to any of you that he was using the product himself and somehow got a very low blood sugar causing this odd behavior? an aviation medical examiner from Chicago suggested that low blood sugar could cause this sort of behavior
Some of the pilots where I work are peddling this 'miracle supplement' and selling shares in some related bogus marketing and lifestyle coaching scheme. I also wonder if Captain Osborn may have fallen for his own BS and hit the supplement too hard. A few years ago a pilot that I know was very confused and combative in the crew lounge for a while after waking up from an Ambien fueled jetlag nap.

Years ago pilots were selling some super noni juice that was a miracle cure for what ails you. Before that they were selling shares in some tax church that was a great deal until they got sent to prison.

In UK people can be detained under the Mental Health Act - is there nothing similar in the USA?
Mental health holds vary by state - don't think there's a federal provision. In California it used to be section 5150, Florida has the Baker Act. But it's generally only a short hold - whatever is in the statute, 72 hours or so. Texas has a provision for brief psychiatric emergency holds, but I'm not sure for how long. And it can involve court hearings, medication administration, etc. In the case of a federal crime, a federal criminal complaint is faster and simpler.
Trying to get someone who is obviously sick hospitalized against their will can be incredibly difficult in the U.S. In Georgia there is a 10-13 hold which can be extended a few days to a 10-15 involuntary hospitalization. But, unless the person is charged with a crime or is observed by a threat or overt act to be a danger to themselves or others, the police will do nothing to help keep the person in the hospital even with family approval and doctor's orders. The patient has the 'right' to leave the hospital and wander off into the streets in a manic state leaving the distraught family to wait for the next call from the cops or the coroner.
Airbubba is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.