janeczku

English translation (via google from polish) of ATC open mic transcript

SadPole

All that the transcript proves to me is that Poles and Russians are very similar people. For better or for worse. Sorry if it offends anyone.

As in how did anyone expect them to behave?

Be happy about this whole mess? (find one Slav anywhere who is jumping for joy when a politician is coming to his town)

Clearly, if someone felt that it wasn't a good idea to tell/order Kaczynski to go back without letting him look at the fog, it was only because they KNEW he would declare it a political provocation. And ALL SANE Poles know it.

Note that both the pilots and the ATC say the same Slavic magic phrase at the end at the same time.

(I could not resist that one seeing as it is supposed to be a big deal that the ATCs swore while discussing their predicament.

Alice025

"All that the transcript proves to me is that Poles and Russians are very similar people."

Sure. Think how it looks from outside.

- We have our President willing to mark Katyn' anniversary on the place and we'd like to enquire if your Smolensk North aerodrome will be available for the direct flight from Warsaw.
- Sure. Why not? It's not very much in operation since it was abandoned by the army but we might figure out something temporary. How many people?
- Oh, it'll be President plus a bit of government, a bit of parliament, heads of different special services and army, that kind of people.
- Really? Well. It's not going to be much convenience there, no arrival halls that kind of thing, air conditioning etc. Toilets, come to think of it. It's more like an open field. But we can send there stairs for the plane, so that the passengers didn't have to jump down. and! this reminds me! we'll have a flying laboratory testing the equipment (let's be honest here, USSR times' stuff it is), and then - why not? there'll be the stairs , as I said, and we'll first test howthe equipmenty works on our people, who will arrive first, and then will test it again on Tusk - that'll be already the second day of flying, and then come your officialdom all together - why! that'll be the third day the aerodrome is in operation again. Yes, I think we're going to be alright.
- Good. Then we are decided.
________
One madman talking to another madman.

Alice025

The way the controllers speak to each other in the transcripts, reminds me of the old joke, "The botswain stumbled on the anchor on the deck, fell and said: xxxx xxxx! Who is the xxx xxx that put here this xxx and double xxxx piece of xxxxx, for crying out loud? I wish that xxx is xxxx and to beat xxxx xxxx out of him, the xxx xxxx, -

and then swore profoundly.

antheads

sorry could not resist


Polish media is reporting that Tusk will go on the political attack over this issue, hopefully this will result in some deeper thinking over some home truths. Or maybe not

ATC Watcher

Kulverstukas:
I have difficulty believing this. That info (execpt the minimas) is in the PLN. That would mean they did not get the PLN ? ( AFTN u/s or no longer valid ?) doubt it.
What I believe from past experience , is that most probably they did not get the final estimate ( exact time/level/squawk )from their adjacent ATC centre (Moscow). But all this is difficult to check unless a professional ( as opposed to Google) translation of the ATC tapes is made.

Does the Polish (or the Russian ) CAA intend to do this and publish it ?

Regarding swearing a lot : Again I could not not read those tapes, but I have analyzed a few in my life. .It is not unusual for some people under stress to swear a lot. Reading a raw transcript always highlight the swearwords therefore, I am always for their deletion or replacing the swears by ( …) in published tape transcripts so that one can concentrate on the mental process behind the actions and not a few words .

Again from experience,in ATC , people swearing a lot are not necessarily the least professional ones. The silent ones "freezing" are the dangerous ones.

Kulverstukas

ATC Watcher

I read russian (strange, ugh?), so I can confirm. They DO NOT KNOW - no actual information: alternate, fuel, minima, arrival time, even if it departed (as opposite to other two flights), speaking language. They DO know (as I can get from tapes, no proof) - that it will be №1 ("A", or VIP flight), type (Tu-154).

ATC Watcher

Kulverstukas
Unfortunately Russian is not one of the languages I understand well, and I am also not familiar with Rusian civil and military phraseology and procedures. So I am only guessing from my western culture and knowledge of ATC what those tapes can reaveal that we do not know already.
But it would really need a Russian professional to decypher , analyse and transcript the tapes into English. Throwing a raw transcript word for word does not help.

Pity we are so far away, a few of us around here a bottle of Vodka could do this is little time no doubt

Sorry cannot understand these words, can you elaborate ?

ARRAKIS

I think he wanted to wrote (letter "A"), which, if I am correct, means a HEAD/government flight.

Arrakis

RickWarsaw

Detailed press comment from Time on the conflict to apportion blame between Russia and Poland

Russia and Poland in a Blame Game over Kaczynski's Crash - Yahoo! News

extract:

It looked at first like the chance of a lifetime, if not a millennium. On April 10, when Polish President Lech Kaczynski and his entourage died in a plane crash in eastern Russia, the flood of grief from the Russian people struck such a chord in Poland that the long history of war, betrayal and oppression between the countries finally seemed to turn a corner. For the first time since anyone could remember, the two nations' leaders began to call each other brothers, a show of amity that would have been hard to imagine before the crash.
But over the past few days, a new cycle of recriminations has begun, helped along by a lack of tact on both sides. The Russians, having closed their official investigation into the tragedy, are stonewalling urgent questions from the Poles, while the Kaczynski family is calling the accident an assassination carried out by Russia. The two countries had the chance to make amends, but now the moment has passed.

liider

From the previous discussions and reports it sounded that Yak-40 "landed without permission", and now it seems that's not really correct. Yak-40 was cleared for landing and almost landed, when the ATC tried to order him to go around:

09:13:03 ATC2: 0-31, approaching outer, on course, on glideslope.
09:13:37 ATC2: 4, on course, glideslope.
09:13:42 ATC1: Turn on the lights.
09:13:54 ATC2: 3, on course, glideslope.
09:14:09 ATC2: 2, on course, glideslope.
09:14:22 ATC2: 1, on course, glideslope.
09:14:35 ATC1: (unint) see the runway, higher!
09:14:41 ATC1: Go around.
09:15:06 ATC1: Landing. Papa Lima three one, after you stop, make 180, well done.

Alice025

ATC Watcher,
re controller "expressing himself" there, no psychologists are needed to tell when sets him off ;o), as this is when he switches to unprintables.
What I remember from the first read it's when the "legkaya dymka"/light smoke / haze? that they speak about in the beg of the record, changes in his eyes into fog; when security gather on the runway; then it is his talk with the meteo office (meteo seems to call in him very strong feelings :o),
then when he realises that the unknown plane "en route to Moscow" that showed up is indeed the Polish plane (after all his phoning and trying to get someone to phone them on board and convince to go to another airport even before they enter Smolensk zone); then in the end after exclamations Where is the plane?! Where is the plane? Where is the plane i can't see it!!!! Oh xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Kulverstukas

ATC Watcher, edited my post to make it more understanable.

PS I prefer scottish beer to vodka

kotofeus

I liked the part where they are talking about getting soldiers, cordoning off the airport, off the runway while the YAK-40 plane is approaching.. hilarious.. reminds me my time in Russian airforce:

09:10:18 Officer in charge: f..ck, soldiers, your mother f...ck...
09:10:45 ATC: I'll go and check the cordon out on the right side...
09:10:48 ATC: Call Kovalev and tell him to move the soldiers to the right
09:10:51 Officer in charge: Sergey, I'm gonna f...cking kill you, these soldiers are on the runway again, damn, but you... at the end of the runway, are you in contact with them?

kotofeus

Interesting to read the part where they are talking to the Russian IL-76. They are literally give the crew an order to go around and then to proceed to their alternative airport, whereas with the TU154 they decide to let the crew make their own decision.

kontrolor

I can already see next thing on the menu: it was not fog, large machines creating artificial fog were producing thick wall of smoke.

janeczku

I was always curious how approach of PAF YAK-40 one hour before TU-154 was handled by ATC.
Here is the (imperfect) translation of the corresponding ATC transcript from time they entered Korsaz control area to landing.
"IL-76" (callsign "8-17") is the Iljuschin Il-76 that tried to land twice and then diverted to Moscow.

8:52:42 Yak-40 Moscow-Control, Papa Lima Fox zero three one, good day, descent FL 3300 meters approaching ASKIL point.
8:52:52 A (intellegible).
8:52:56 RP Papa Lima zero three one. "Korsaz" calling?
8:53:28 Yak-40 Papa Lima Fox 0-3-1, descending 3300 meters.
8:53:39 RP Papa Lima zero three one, go to 1500 with the rate of 30 °.
8:53:53 Yak-40 3-5-0-0 meters with a rate of 30.
8:54:01 RP One five zero zero meters.
8:54:05 Yak-40 Descend one five zero zero meters.
8:54:12 board (intellegible).
8:54:17 RP 8-17, at the "Korsaz" 3 points, haze. Visibility 4, wind 140 degrees, 2 meters. Temperature 2, the pressure 7-45, 7-45. Runway 2-59. circle altitude 1500, approach OSP with RSP [Comment: means PAR+NDB].
8:54:36 IL-76 8-17, runway 2-5-9, pressure 7-45. Circle altitude 1500, OSP with RSP. Further communication.
8:54:46 RP Further communication 8-17, and landing will be after the Polish aircraft.
8:54:50 IL-76 Acknowledged, 8-17.
8:55:27 A (unintelligable)
8:55:38 A What about the Poles, they disappeared?
8:55:42 RP Papa Lima Foxtrot zero three one, here "Korsaz".
8:55:48 Yak-40 Go ahead.
8:55:51 RP At "Korsaz" haze, visibility 4 km, clear. Pressure 7-45, 7-45, runway 2-5-9.
8:56:05 Yak-40 (unintelligable) 2-5-9, pressure 7 (unintelligable).
8:56:17 RP Roger
...
9:02:46 RP PLF zero three one.
9:02:50 Yak-40 Go ahead.
9:02:52 RP Course 10, one-zero course.
9:02:56 Yak-40 Course 10, Papa Lima Foxtrot 0-3-1.
9:03:11 RP Come quickly, hurry.
9:03:15 (WHR) Yes, I called, they said, everything is set.
9:03:19 RP At "Southern" is fog.
9:03:40 RP Papa Lima Foxtrot zero three one, altitude?
9:03:50 Yak-40 (unintelligable) 1500 meters.
9:03:54 RP One five zero zero?
9:03:57 Yak-40 (unintelligable).
9:03:58 RP What?
9:03:59 WHR What did he say?
9:04:03 RP Papa Lima Foxtrot one three one.
9:04:07 Yak-40 Go ahead.
9:04:09 RP Pressure 7-45, seven four five, descend five zero zero.
9:04:20 A (unintelligable).
...
9:04:22 Yak-40 Descending to 500 meters, pressure 7-45.
9:04:29 RP Roger
...
9:06:56 WHR The Poles are coming ...
9:06:57 RP 0-31.
9:07:01 A (unintelligable).
9:07:30 RP Papa Lima Foxtrot zero three one, here "Korsaz".
9:07:35 Yak-40 Go ahead.
9:07:37 RP Visibility 1500, one five zero zero, visibility.
9:07:48 Yak-40 Roger.
9:07:52 RP Are you at 500?
9:07:54 A (unintelligable).
9:07:58 RP Papa Lima Foxtrot zero three one, are you at 5-0-0?
9:08:04 Yak-40 Altitude 5-0-0 Papa Lima Fox 0-3-1.
9:08:09 RP Understood.
...
9:08:45 Yak-40 Polish, Papa Lima Fox 0-3-1, requesting permission to approach for landing.
9:08:51 RP 0-3-1, approaching for landing, distance 16.
9:08:57 PII Permission!
9:08:59 Yak-40 Permission, Papa Lima Fox 0-3-1.
9:09:03 RP Granted 0-3-1, at "Korsaz"
9:09:09 Yak-40 (unintelligable) 0-3-1.
9:09:23 RP Yes.
...
9:11:25 Yak-40 Papa Lima Foxtrot 0-3-1, permission for final approach.
9:11:30 RP 0-31 final approach, distance (unintelligable).
9:11:40 Yak-40 Papa Lima Fox 0-3-1.
9:11:42 RP Permission granted.
9:12:12 WHR (unintelligable) distance 10 (unintelligable), entering glide path.
...
09:12:39 A Meteo
9:12:41 Kraen ... about the weather, Marchenko said, he did not expect the fog.
09:12:48 A (unintelligable).
9:12:53 RP Come on, talk with them, well, continue speaking.
9:13:03 WHR 0-31, approaching outer, on course for final approach.
9:13:09 RP Well, they should be aware of their distance.
...
9:13:37 WHR 4, on course, on glidepath.
9:13:40 A (unintelligable).
9:13:42 RP Reflectors, someone turn the lights on.
9:13:46 WG1 Come on, come on, come on.
9:13:49 Kraen. Vladimir Ivanovich, distance 2, good morning, fog is closing down.. I'll call again!
...
9:14:09 WHR 2, on course, on glidepath.
9:14:16 RP Come on, come on, come on, look.
9:14:21 A Middle Marker (unintelligable).
9:14:22 WHR 1, on course, on glidepath.
9:14:27 RP I cant see, i cant see them.
9:14:30 A (unintelligable).
9:14:35 RP Where, Where? Watch above the runway!
9:14:38 A F***, he has to go-around!
9:14:41 RP Go-around!
9:14:44 A (unintelligable).
9:15:01 A (unintelligable).
9:15:06 RP Landing. Papa Lima three one, later park at 180, well done.
9:15:17 RP At 180.
9:15:18 RP Yak-40 just landed.
9:15:25 A Did you see how he ...?...
9:15:28 IL-76 8-17 (unintelligable) descending (unintelligable).
9:15:31 A (unintelligable).
9:15:33 RP 8-17, 1500, report to me.

kotofeus

nope, we did have it at the very beginning

RegDep

I might be noteworthy that in the transcript, one cannot see the Ilyushin read back their altitude as their response to the ATC call 'n on course, on glide path' except once *), but importantly on the second attempt, at 09:38:35, when the distance was '2' and the read back was '130'.

Now, if you compare the data in the report (easiest in Fig 45) and think what would have been the read-back of the 101 if they had followed the "Russian PAR" (and we do not re-start the discussion PAR-no-PAR). It would have been the same (or maybe even a bit higher), when based on the altitude call-outs in the cockpit.

*) There were several unintelligible sounds on the first attempt, and one at distance '3' on the second, which may or may not be a read-back, but that is less important.

Ptkay

Janeczku,

I am for real.

Aktualno?ci

On April 11th the list of casualties included:
5 flight crew,
4 cabin crew
and 55 pax.

I have the copy on my computer, but you will, of course,
not believe in it.

You can use some "timeback machine" on internet to confirm it.
(The usual wayback machine was cleaned, try something else.)

The relations on the briefieng before the flight was leaked 4 month ago
from the prosecutors investigations, but immediately disappeared from net.

This is a rumour forum.

This time I shut up for good,
until the Polish final report will be published.
Maybe there will you find some confirmation.